List of annoyances with Thinkpad T60p

[Marc Levoy]

I bought a Thinkpad T60p in May 2007, pre-installed with Windows XP
Professional and SP2. The hardware is excellent, as many online reviews
correctly attest. However, the laptop has many software "issues". In
particular, after using it daily for 3 months, I have compiled the following
list of problems. Some of these are reported elsewhere in various online
Forums, including on this Forum.

1. Sometimes when the display turns off (after a period of inactivity),
it can't be turned on again, e.g. by pressing a key or moving the
mouse. To remedy this, I have to put the laptop into standby, e.g. by
closing the lid, then resume it again. Doing so of course drops my
wireless connections. Setting the display to never turn off in the
ThinkVantage power manager has no effect; the display still turns off.

2. Sometimes when resuming from standby, my Wi-Fi no longer works. The
LED says it's on, but the ThinkVantage wireless connection status
display says it's off, and no WLANs can be found. Sliding the radios
switch off and on does not repair the problem. To remedy this, I must
reboot the laptop. This problem is particularly widely reported.

3. Sometimes the cursor starts freezing every few seconds, making it
nearly impossible to operate any programs. To remedy this, I must
reboot.

4. Sometimes when resuming from standby, one or more of my USB ports no
longer work. Sometimes, none of them work. Typical devices plugged
into these ports are a Logitech optical mouse, a PalmOne Treo 650, an
SD card reader, or a USB key. To remedy this, I must reboot.

5. Last week I received a ThinkVantage error, "Irreparable damage to
the battery has been detected. Replace the battery with a new one."
However, the battery seems to work and charge fine. Their
"lenovobatteryreplacementpackage.exe" says Lenovo won't replace my
battery, but doesn't say it isn't damaged, i.e. their program's results
are ambiguously worded. They are also ungrammatical.

6. If I am connected to the Internet, but not VPN'ed to my corporate
network, all applications hang for about 30 seconds before launching.
On occasion, I have seen these hangs even when not connected. Even the
Windows Task Manager hangs on launch. Sysinternals tools show attempts
to access a non-existent "Z:" drive. Clearing the My Recent Documents
sometimes helps. This problem is also widely reported, and it may be
a problem in Windows XP, not Lenovo.

7. Sometimes I close the lid, but the laptop won't enter standby or
hibernate. This may be related to the 30-second hangs just described,
but the hang is much longer, sometimes 20 minutes or more, and it
sometimes happens when not connected to the Internet. It may correlate
with running OpenGL programs, but not always. In this case (or perhaps
in others), the laptop never enters standby, thereby draining my
battery. To remedy this, I must reboot. After rebooting, the laptop
sometimes finishes entering standby or hibernation as soon as I log in.
Sometimes, I have resumed from hiberation, just to have the laptop
re-enter hiberation spontaneously 20 minutes later, due to a previous,
apparently hung, attempt to enter hiberation.

8. The battery icon sometimes disappears. Logging out and in fixes
this problem.

9. Explorer.exe sometimes crashes. Sometimes it restarts
automatically, but sometimes not. In the latter case, I must
cold-reboot the laptop. This may be a Windows XP problem.


On August 21, I attempted to solve some of these problems by updating my
ThinkVantage software. I did this by invoking ThinkVantage "Update System".
That invocation first updated the Update software and rebooted my laptop
(without warning!). Then, using the new update program, I requested all
critical & recommended upgrades, but not optional upgrades. Upon rebooting, I
discovered that I now had no Presentation Director. After installing the
latest version of Presentation Director from the list of optional upgrades, my
system hung during login.

With the aid of telephone technical support in Atlanta, I restored my system,
then attempted a piece-by-piece update instead of the failed automatic update.
This manual process consisted of un-installing and installing updated versions
of my Power Manager and ACPI Power Manager (v1.16 and v1.43), Hotkey driver,
Atheros Wireless driver, and Access Connections (v4.42). Upon rebooting, the
display of my ThinkVantage menus (upon hitting the blue buttom) were messed up,
I received a variety of error messages I've never seen, like "Unknown ethernet
port detected" (from ThinkVantage Access Connections), I saw no more balloon
messages on connect or disconnect of wireless, and enabling or disabling radios
using the physical switch on the side of the laptop did not bring up a dialogue
box, as it had previously. Moreover, my bluetooth was permanently disabled.

After 6 hours on the phone with technical support, 2 of which was spent in
phone queues after being repeatedly disconnected, I restored my system a second
time, and I abandoned the attempt to upgrade my ThinkVantage software. I will
live with the annoyances enumerated above until I can find a better laptop.

-------------------

In summary, I have owned a succession of Thinkpads for about 7 years. My last
one (before the current T60p) was a T42. This is the first time I have had
significant problems.

I suspect that the cause underlying these problems is poor integration between
the laptop hardware, its drivers, and the ThinkVantage applications. The
failure of both the automatic and manual upgrade procedures also suggests poor
software quality control. The inability of Atlanta's technical support people
to walk me successfully through an upgrade, and the long telephone queue times,
suggest a decreasing emphasis on customer service. Some of these problem may
be related to the handoff of the Thinkpad line from IBM to Lenovo, but this is
conjecture. I do note that the download instructions and release notes for the
ThinkVantage software are written in ungrammatical English.

Unfortunately, these problems make it difficult to use my laptop spontaneously,
e.g. to show demos to people during meetings, and it makes giving talks to
large groups a nervewracking experience. Since this is what I do (I am a
professor of computer science), I will never buy another Lenovo laptop. I will
also recommend to my colleagues and students that they not buy one.

-Marc Levoy
Professor
Computer Science Department
Stanford University

[snessiram]

1. Which keys did you try? (especially esc and spacebar)
Also check Power manager. When you edit a profile you will see there's an option to turn off the screen after a certain period, you could disable it.

5. Did it happen only once? What does power manager do/say when you open it?

8. I have this too, wonder what the cause is.

9. Press control + alt + delete, go into task manager, click the first tab ("applications"), on the bottom right: "new task", enter "explorer.exe".
I believe this to be a windows XP problem. If it happens a lot you could try to let every explorer window have a different process (in explorer options: 2nd tab, select "open explorer windows in seperate processes" (something like that, it's option 13))

[BillMorrow]

.
.
2. Sometimes when resuming from standby, my Wi-Fi no longer works. The
LED says it's on, but the ThinkVantage wireless connection status
display says it's off, and no WLANs can be found. Sliding the radios
switch off and on does not repair the problem. To remedy this, I must
reboot the laptop. This problem is particularly widely reported.
.
.
.

5. Last week I received a ThinkVantage error, "Irreparable damage to
the battery has been detected. Replace the battery with a new one."
However, the battery seems to work and charge fine. Their
"lenovobatteryreplacementpackage.exe" says Lenovo won't replace my
battery, but doesn't say it isn't damaged, i.e. their program's results
are ambiguously worded. They are also ungrammatical.
.
.
.
-Marc Levoy
Professor
Computer Science Department
Stanford University

IRT # 2,
same thing happens to me under vista and XP-SP2..
i reboot the AP and everything works..
same thing happens with all my thinkpads and the apple macbook pro..
so it appears to be a Linksys AP problem that is easier to ignore than fix since i am moving to a new house soon..

IRT #5,
same happened to me..
i went here:

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... MIGR-67765

and it examined the battery and said it would replace it, no charge..
which i did and the next day therre was a new battery at my door..

i have not experienced the other problems you describe..

i am running a T60p (200794U) for about a year..
the vista install is partially done using mostly the generic M$ drivers..
i DID install power manager manually after the 6 cell battery failed..

i am sending a link to this thread to a lenovo support manager..

aside:
hows the weather in palo alto..?
used to live there..
family still lives on campus..
one of the few towns i would move back to if i could afford to buy the house i used to own..

[jdhurst]

My T41 XP Pro SP2 all updates applied has worked beautifully with suspend / resume. I am usually moving it when I suspend, so I disconnect anyway first.

Latterly, after the most recent power manager update, I find I can resume, but the power manager hangs. I can work, but the icon doesn't change (AC or Battery) and I have to force shutdown. This is very new (the machine is 42 months old) and I am fairly certain it is the new power manager.
... JDH

[psirgany]

Item #1

I have the same annoyance. It only occurs if you use the power manager settings to turn off the backlight on the LCD. It is not related to screen savers etc.

The work-around I have found is to press Fn-F7 a couple of times until you cycle back to the LCD. You'll need to change the presentation manager settings for Fn-F7 to toggle between LCD / monitor / both - i.e., don't use the pop up window with choices.

I have latest BIOS, power manager, etc.

[Marc Levoy]

Here is a 10th problem, which I had forgotten to include in my August 23 post:

10. For several weeks, explorer.exe would occasionally crash with an
error that says, "To help protect your computer, Windows has closed
this program." Upon rebooting, the laptop came up normally. The
dialog box may have been labeled "Data Execution Prevention", but I'm
not sure. During this same period, during bootup I would sometimes
receive an error message about ThinkVantage Client Security Software.
I dismissed the message, with no obvious ill effect except on my
confidence.

Here are possible fixes for these problems,
with thanks to the users on various Forums who posted them.
I have not tried these fixes yet; I will try them as each issue resurfaces.

URL: http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/13/irat ... nkpad-t61/
User: andrew
Fixes: o For item #2 (wi-fi), put laptop into standby, switch off wireless,
resume from standby, switch wireless back on. Also, in wireless
driver properties, disable power saving mode.

o For item #1 (unable to resume screen), toggle FN+F7 a few times.
This was also suggested by user psirgany on forum.thinkpads.com.

o For all ThinkVantage issues, wipe disk and re-install Windows without
any ThinkVantage software; the laptop apparently works fine without it.

Users on other Forums suggest disabling or un-installing this software.
I have not seen reports posted of instability from doing so.

URL: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=48313
User: snessiram
Fixes: o For item #9 (explorer crashes), explorer can be restarted from the
task manager. Also, in Explorer->Tools->Folder Options->View,
try "Launch folder windows in a separate process".

In addition, I received several phone calls and emails from Lenovo technical
support in Research Triangle Park, North Carolina. They offered to walk me
through the ThinkVantage upgrade procedures again, replace my battery, re-image
my hard drive, or anything else I wished. They were polite and helpful.
However, I declined these offers, due to the time and inconvenience they would
incur. One change I did make, in response to one of their suggestions, was to
disable the Data Execution Prevention bit in the BIOS. This obviously relates
to problem #10, but may underlie others.

-Marc Levoy
Professor
Computer Science Department
Stanford University

[GomJabbar]

Here is a 10th problem, which I had forgotten to include in my August 23 post:

10. For several weeks, explorer.exe would occasionally crash with an error that says, "To help protect your computer, Windows has closed this program." Upon rebooting, the laptop came up normally. The dialog box may have been labeled "Data Execution Prevention", but I'm not sure. During this same period, during bootup I would sometimes receive an error message about ThinkVantage Client Security Software. I dismissed the message, with no obvious ill effect except on my confidence.

See if this helps.
You receive a "Data Execution Prevention" error message in Windows XP Service Pack 2 or in Windows XP Tablet PC Edition 2005

When you lose WiFi, try this: Go to Network Connections, right-click on your wireless adapter and choose "Repair". See also the following. T60, Intel 3945abg wireless disconnects

[stephenaron]

I had the disconnect issue with my T60p using the intel 3945 card. I ripped it out and installed the IBM abg card, and it still happens. I am using a Linksys SRX router, the WRT54GX one.

[jgrobertson]

I suspect that the cause underlying these problems is poor integration between the laptop hardware, its drivers, and the ThinkVantage applications. The failure of both the automatic and manual upgrade procedures also suggests poor software quality control.

You have figured it out. IBM puts support of their products first and foremost and they are as good as it gets in that area (in my opiinion). Lenovo on the other hand is not IBM. They are trying to compete with the Dells of the world and not trying to maintain the IBM level of integrity. Lenovo's software/firmware is not what we IBM Thinpad people (This T60p is my 7th) have come to expect and be willing to pay more for.

This is my last Lenovo machine. Have to look carefully at HP and Sony going forward, however, it may be that we just won't find the IBM level of integrity in a consumer product in the future.

[JaneL]

however, it may be that we just won't find the IBM level of integrity in a consumer product in the future.

We didn't find it in a consumer product in the past...

[crazyfrog]

.... Since this is what I do (I am a
professor of computer science), I will never buy another Lenovo laptop. I will
also recommend to my colleagues and students that they not buy one.

-Marc Levoy
Professor
Computer Science Department
Stanford University

You don't need to be a professor of computer science to discourage people from Lenovo+ThinkPad. And I don't think it is a professor's responsibility to tell people what to buy or not to buy. It is salesman on high street.

"Joined: 22 Aug 2007 and Posts: 2", I seriously doubt your words about and experiences with T60p, at least your capabilities of distinguishing problems of software drivers from problems of windows operating system. Yeah, if Microsoft is handed over to a Chinese company some day in the future, I bet you have nothing to complain.

[bevross]

I've been vacillating re: purchase of a new T'pad T61 (have a T42) and these posts are bringing back to mind all the software hassles I had with the T42 due to what can only be called bloatware -- Access Connections, the auto-update program, Rescue & Recover, ThinkVantage solutions, Presentation Manager, wifi drivers, etc. I'd been totally amazed at the sheer number of software updates coming out of Lenovo/IBM -- I also have HP and Dell machines (albeit desktops) and after the first few months it's rare that new drivers or vendorware comes out. With the T42, I was at first impressed that the company was continually 'improving' their software. After a while, when these programs only caused more problems than they fixed, I gave up, uninstalled the stuff, and don't even both to check for updates so long as things work.

Lenovo/IBM markets this software as a plus but it must be the source of many hours of customer support. Since Marc Levoy seemed to finally get attention (due to his postings on the web?) and support actually called him (!) then perhaps they are following what's going on here & in other forums? Hence, my decision to add to this post & say I, too, will look for a machine from a different vendor. I encourage Lenovo to go in the direction of less fancy attempts at software and towards clean/stable systems.

I also know some of you just love some of these progs -- Access Connections, Presentation Manager, etc. -- but I think most don't. Just look at the number of times, when people post about wifi problems, others recommend uninstalling AC and letting Windows do the work?

[gator]

Guys, please keep the discussion civil and to the point. There is no need for name calling and heated words.

[mattbiernat]

he has a point there but i agree with gator. i think what the other member was angry about was the way Marc Levoy used his signature to support his argument. perhaps it was unintentional but the post could have been written in a more neutal way, hello I am a professor of CS... and here are my experiances... i am extremly frustrated....
there is a lot of forum members in here who have PhDs, MA, etc. yet you don't see any of them ending their arguments with their titles....

[baldingunixgeek]

Hmmm... these posts seem so strange to me. I know it's normal to see more complaints than praise on these forums, but really....

I have a T61, 15.4, integrated graphics. It works perfectly. Everything works (after initial tweaking); it suspends/resumes, no stalls, hangs, BSODs, intermittent wifi dropouts, strange quirks or other annoyances. It's cool, quiet, and stable. Of course, it's running linux, and I am not able to run any of that handy software from Lenovo, because it was wiped from the hard drive. I suspect that many of your frustrations do not have the hardware as a cause. I know that's not much help to you, but you CAN replace the software....

[DranK]

he has a point there but i agree with gator. i think what the other member was angry about was the way Marc Levoy used his signature to support his argument. perhaps it was unintentional but the post could have been written in a more neutal way, hello I am a professor of CS... and here are my experiances... i am extremly frustrated....
there is a lot of forum members in here who have PhDs, MA, etc. yet you don't see any of them ending their arguments with their titles....

I could not agree more!

P.S. Aww it is so cute to use o’s as bullets.

[perfplus]

Wow. I am just about to purchase a T60p 2007ZK4. haha...Should I not now?

[Marin85]

What screen does it have, 14'', 15'', 15.4''? If it´s the 15'', definetely YES As for the other two options you may want to hear some more opinions from forum members

Cheers,

Marin

[Johan]

What screen does it have, 14'', 15'', 15.4''? If it´s the 15'', definetely YES As for the other two options you may want to hear some more opinions from forum members

Answer --> Lenovo's specifications for the T60p 2007-ZK4 saying:

Product: ThinkPad T60p 2007-ZK4

Original description: Based on 2007-CTO: T7200(2GHz), 1GB RAM, 100GB 7200rpm HD, 14.1in 1400x1050 LCD, 256MB ATI FireGL V5250, CDRW/DVDRW, Intel 802.11abg wireless, Bluetooth, Modem, 1Gb Ethernet, UltraNav, Secure chip, Fingerprint reader, 9c Li-Ion, WinXP Pro

The LCD in 14.1" T60p is not a FlexView/IPS (which is what Marin85 implicitly recommend). Moreover, I guess you should be able to find some never/faster/colder/quiter 14.1" T61's- they also came with 4:3 SXGA+ LCD's. I recall having read that the ATI FireGL V5250 runs quite hot, hence puts the fan "on" quite often. Try search this forum...

The usual question: What are your actual needs? Why would you want this T60p?

Johan