EXTREMELY angry about Lenovo's change in Return Policy

[santalink]

Hi all,

I ordered t60p in July, recieved it in early to mid Aug.
Since the price for t61p is much cheaper than my t60p, I
decided to return the t60p. I know that within 21 days
I can get full refund provided that the box is not opened.

But when I called today, their CS told me they just changed
return policy. I have to pay 15% restock fee even though
my box is unopened and within 21 days.

They even say they just enforce this policy, and their
website is no even updated!!!

When I purchase this laptop, my laptop should under the old
return policy, so I should not be affected by their new policy.

What should I do? I asked their supervisor to call me back, and they promise to call me back in 24-48 hours(which I doubt they would).

Do I need to file a dispute with my credit card, or should I complaint to the authority??

Pls give me some advice.

[mattbiernat]

since the return policy changed after you bought your thinkpad you should not be affected by it. it is their problem that it took them a month and a half to deliver it and not yours.
i would try speaking to the supervisor, and if that doesn't help i would go higher than that.
if all else fails go to your credit card company and dispute the charge. afterall you bought your notebook knowing that you can return it without 15% fee (as long as the box is unopened)

[ocellaris]

Negative, the actual return policy is listed under the "terms and conditions" you clicked on when you made the purchase. It was a tiny checkbox at the bottom that says "I agree to the terms and conditions". In those terms and conditions is the real return policy. If you dispute this with the CC company, you are likely going to lose.

[pianowizard]

I understand why you are so upset -- I would be too if this had happened to me -- but when you complain to Lenovo, try to keep your cool and be polite. That's usually more effective than yelling.

[eecon]

Same here .... Ordered Lenovo online a deeply discounted T61 15" WS CTO in mid-July for early Aug delivery. Price then dropped about $40 just 2 days after placing the order but also noticed that new orders were now pushed back to "late" August (about 6 weeks). Called my rep about it and he said that the policy now is to cancel the original order and place a new order which might risk delivery so I just let the original order go through and it arrived exactly on time on Aug 4th in excellent condition. Just checked the site again today and I see that the price dropped another $60 but delivery is still 6 weeks (instead of my original 3 weeks). Since my shipped unit is defect free (which is not always the case), I just let it slide.

However, as a side note, when I ordered a T42 three years ago from IBM (pre-Lenovo), the price also dropped by about $200 before delivery and they simply said they would credit back my credit card. I waited and waited for about 6 months and nothing. Then finally an email from IBM appologizing for the delay and guess what? The wait saved me another $300. They credited me back $500 nearly six months after the puchase! .... very nice.

Unfortunately, now times have changed everywhere .... companies change, policies change, people change .... I try to go with the flow and feel grateful that I'm not a sitting duck target out somewhere where it is 116 degrees F right now.

[santalink]

I called Lenovo again this afternoon to ask for a supervisor. I was told that no supervisor is available. And I told the CS about my situation. What the CS said is the it is a new policy that effective on August, and there is nothing he can do but to charge a 15 % restocking fees on all the return items. I told him that my order was placed on July and the return policy on Lenovo's web site claims that we can return our unopened item within 21 days for full refund. However, he told me that I have to talk to a supervisor about this.

Below is the return policy that I found on Lenovo's web site today (August 28th):

" For a new Product that is unopened and still in its sealed package, you may return it to Lenovo for any reason within 21 days of the date of invoice and obtain a refund or credit. Lenovo does not provide refunds or credits for portions of a packaged offering provided at a single price or for preloaded Programs installed by Lenovo. You may return the complete package for a refund or credit.

To qualify for this credit or refund (as applicable), you must call Lenovo at 1-866-42-THINK (1-866-428-4465) to obtain a return-authorization form. You must return the new product, including all documentation and accessories, intact and in its unopened original packaging, to a Lenovo designated location by the date Lenovo specifies.

A copy of the invoice, the return-authorization form, and the shipping label must accompany the return. Shipping and handling charges generally will not be refunded or credited. Opened products returned are subject to a restocking fee equal to 15% of the price paid. You agree to pay the restocking fee as Lenovo specifies.

If you acquired a Program separate from a Machine, and paid a license fee, you may return the Program within 21 days of the date of invoice and obtain a refund or credit, if you do not agree to the license terms provided with the Program. "

Any suggestions?

[ocellaris]

Any suggestions?

Read my post. You agreed to additional terms and conditions during the checkout process for your PC. Here is what you will find under the terms and conditions:

3. Return Policy

For a new Product that is unopened and still in it's sealed package, you may return it to Lenovo for any reason within 21 days of the date of invoice and obtain a refund or credit. Lenovo does not provide refunds or credits for portions of a packaged offering provided at a single price or for preloaded Programs installed by Lenovo. You may return the complete package for a refund or credit. To qualify for this credit or refund (as applicable), you must call Lenovo at 1-866-42-THINK (1-866-428-4465) to obtain a return-authorization form. You must return the new Product, including all documentation and accessories, intact and in its unopened original packaging, to a Lenovo designated location by the date Lenovo specifies. A copy of the invoice, the return-authorization form, and the shipping label must accompany the return. Shipping and handling charges generally will not be refunded or credited. Products returned may be subject to a restocking fee equal to 15% of the price paid. You agree to pay the restocking fee as Lenovo specifies. Products purchased through the Lenovo Employee Purchase Program are not eligible for return.

If you acquired a Program separate from a Machine, and paid a license fee, you may return the Program within 21 days of the date of invoice and obtain a refund or credit, if you do not agree to the license terms provided with the Program.

[santalink]

That's the new policy. As I said, Lenovo is trying to apply it's new policy to customers who made their purchases before the effective of the new return policy.

When I made my purchase, I only agree to the below policy but not the one that you posted.

" For a new Product that is unopened and still in its sealed package, you may return it to Lenovo for any reason within 21 days of the date of invoice and obtain a refund or credit. Lenovo does not provide refunds or credits for portions of a packaged offering provided at a single price or for preloaded Programs installed by Lenovo. You may return the complete package for a refund or credit.

To qualify for this credit or refund (as applicable), you must call Lenovo at 1-866-42-THINK (1-866-428-4465) to obtain a return-authorization form. You must return the new product, including all documentation and accessories, intact and in its unopened original packaging, to a Lenovo designated location by the date Lenovo specifies.

A copy of the invoice, the return-authorization form, and the shipping label must accompany the return. Shipping and handling charges generally will not be refunded or credited. Opened products returned are subject to a restocking fee equal to 15% of the price paid. You agree to pay the restocking fee as Lenovo specifies.

If you acquired a Program separate from a Machine, and paid a license fee, you may return the Program within 21 days of the date of invoice and obtain a refund or credit, if you do not agree to the license terms provided with the Program."

Any suggestions?

Read my post. You agreed to additional terms and conditions during the checkout process for your PC. Here is what you will find under the terms and conditions:

3. Return Policy

For a new Product that is unopened and still in it's sealed package, you may return it to Lenovo for any reason within 21 days of the date of invoice and obtain a refund or credit. Lenovo does not provide refunds or credits for portions of a packaged offering provided at a single price or for preloaded Programs installed by Lenovo. You may return the complete package for a refund or credit. To qualify for this credit or refund (as applicable), you must call Lenovo at 1-866-42-THINK (1-866-428-4465) to obtain a return-authorization form. You must return the new Product, including all documentation and accessories, intact and in its unopened original packaging, to a Lenovo designated location by the date Lenovo specifies. A copy of the invoice, the return-authorization form, and the shipping label must accompany the return. Shipping and handling charges generally will not be refunded or credited. Products returned may be subject to a restocking fee equal to 15% of the price paid. You agree to pay the restocking fee as Lenovo specifies. Products purchased through the Lenovo Employee Purchase Program are not eligible for return.

If you acquired a Program separate from a Machine, and paid a license fee, you may return the Program within 21 days of the date of invoice and obtain a refund or credit, if you do not agree to the license terms provided with the Program.

[mientras]

With the policy you cite at the time of purchase, I am confident you will prevail with your credit car company in reversing the charges.

Lenovo also has some new terms and conditions that basically say you cannot sue them (must arbitrate individually) and you cannot be a class representative or member in a class action. (They emailed me these terms an condiions the day they shipped my latest system)

Just recently the 9th Circuit struck down an almost identical self-serving policy by Cingular with ramnifications for many consumer goods and services - I doubt Lenovo's terms will hold up.

This is the trend. PC makers are working sometimes with razor thin margins. Tremendous competition and more and more generic features.

I feel that the quality of the machines their service and the return policies is NOT as good as before, but prices are lower and you get a lot of machine for the money. I remember some Thinkpads that I paid over $7,000 that had an unconditional 30 day return policy even if used.

Due to Lenovo's long delays on two orders I sourced a couple of Sony machines for my parents from the local Sony store. Very competitively priced, good quality and feature set, called them on a couple of issues and got vey good telephone support. They have (some in-store tech service and offered a 14 day money back as well.

I am not thrilled with my T61p (replacing a T42) and I am considering getting a small Sony wth solid state memory vs hard drive instead.

[gotconsultants]

Half of the schemes Lenovo tries to play in california are not even legal...

They tried to tell me that they are not bound to obey California consumer protection laws at one point...

It will be interesting to see as I cancelled a laptop order before it even shipped... Amex already said they will reverse the charges if Lenovo gives me any headaches...

[steveg47]

santalink, My strong recommendation is that you dispute the purchase with your credit card company immediately and let them handle it. Don't delay!! After all, you have already acted in good faith by contacting them and all you got was the "run around". Disputing the purchase will certainly get Lenovo's attention. I am also very confident that you will prevail. Good luck

[DranK]

Just FYI I have successfully disputed a few charges in the past and the "bad" merchants blacklisted me. I was not able to order anything from them with the same CC info and billing address. I just used another CC with another billing address, worked like a charm.

[steveg47]

Just FYI I have successfully disputed a few charges in the past and the "bad" merchants blacklisted me. I was not able to order anything from them with the same CC info and billing address. I just used another CC with another billing address, worked like a charm.

I wouldn't want to do any more business with a vendor who did this. And, at the very least, I would also report the blacklisting to the CC company who handled the dispute.

[whizkid]

Lenovo will likely be much more amenable to a full credit if you are buying a different machine since they still get your money (or most of it). Be sure to mention when you speak again.

[santalink]

Thanks for all your valuable advice.

I will try to call Lenovo once today.
If it still doesn't work out, I will contact my credit card company.
I still have a copy of the old return policy so I think my credit
card company can help me.

I don't care if Lenovo blacklist me, since I already had eough
with them. The 2 months delay for T61, almost 2 months delay
again for T61p (I order it on 7/12, the first day it was released),
and now their change in return policy that forced upon on me.

I still like Thinkpad, but I'd better get it from somewhere else.

[dr_st]

You have a good case - they changed their policies after you ordered, and you are planning to buy a different machine, so they are interested in keeping you as a customer.

I found that the key to prevailing in such debates, is nagging them non-stop, but talking calmly and firmly. They tend to break down. I would use CC dispute only as a last resort.

[santalink]

You have a good case - they changed their policies after you ordered, and you are planning to buy a different machine, so they are interested in keeping you as a customer.

I found that the key to prevailing in such debates, is nagging them non-stop, but talking calmly and firmly. They tend to break down. I would use CC dispute only as a last resort.

I called in and I was very very calm.
As usual, I was put on hold for 40 minutes and another 15 minutes to transfer me to their return department.(I chose return option at first, but they still had to transfer me again).

The CS just told me sorry, there was nothing he can do about.
I asked him if you were me, don't you think its unreasonable?
He said "I am sorry, there is nothing I can do."
I kept asking him in a very polite manner, but he only kept repeating "I am sorry, there is nothing I can do."

I truly feel sorry for the CS, as he really could do nothing.

I ask him when did Lenovo change the policy and he told me only a week. I ask if he can email me the new return policy to me and he said he don't have it.

But once again, I can see HOW INCOMPETENT THE LENOVO'S MANAGEMENTS ARE.

Their management kept making unwise and slow decisions.

They don't care about their frontend CS. They always put their
CS in a very bad situation without giving them the real tools to
handle customer request. (more accurate order status checking, cancealing an order directly without just sending a request
to factory without knowing it will go through or not)

They don't try to solve problems. The backlog for t61p was
still not solved.

If they want to solve problems, they can just come up with
poor solutions.
I suspect due to their delayed shippment, there are more customers like me want to return their old system and reorder
a new system with much better price. In order to solve this
problem, they don't try to solve the delayed problem, rather
they just don't allow their customer to return or just charge them
15% restocking fee no matter what. SO PROBLEM SOLVED!

As of today, I still have no clue why my T61p order I placed on July 12(the first day t61p was released) is still in process.
I tried to cancel it 6 times! Yes 6 times, but each time they just told me the canceallation request had been sent to their factory, and it should be cancelled in 24-48 hours. I don't know what I should do if they ship this laptop to me and charge me 15% if I want to return it.

I have to say some orders I placed were very smooth, but when
orders have problem, it become very hard to deal with.

Sorry for bothering you guys and thanks again for many good advice.

I still love Thinkpad's build quality, but I just want to express my frustration and move on.

[whizkid]

My humble opinion: You should contact Consumerist.com and see if their advocacy can help... along with their executive e-mail carpet bomb!

[mattbiernat]

along with their executive e-mail carpet bomb!

what is this?

[ezlynx]

If you're in the states, you can submit an online complaint form with the Better Business Bureau. I am not a fan of theirs but some people have had good results resolving complaints.

I think it's www.bbb.com

[gator]

Guys, cool it a little .... do not take any drastic steps, and repent later on ...

[santalink]

Guys, cool it a little .... do not take any drastic steps, and repent later on ...

I didn't take any drastic steps.
I just filed a compliant through BBB, and email to my local
TV station.
I may use other channels too.
As adviced by fellow members, I will use credit card dispute as my
final resort.
To me, there is no difference of charging me $1 or 15% or even 100% restocking fee. The problem is their bad business practice
which I cannot tolerate.

[barrywohl]

Customer service takes a continuous effort to be fair and honest with the customer and to support a first quality product.

No customer service works with junk. You must be supporting a quality product to begin with.

Then you must have policies in place to reward giving good customer service.

I've found Lenovo Direct, the sales arm, to be very good with me, in letting me return my Z61p that was defective from day one. That was back in May, after I purchased my Z61p in February. I recently called them because my T61p ordered 07/26/07 was promised for an August 28th shipment. Then on August 28th, it got repromised for September 28th. If I cancel now, they will refund my machine, as well as some Z61/T61 accessories I purchased back in February (some chargers, a mini-port-replicator and case).

I'm going to stick with them on this order for now, but I'm the kind of customer who would just as well pay a few more dollars up front to have a better customer service experience through the life of the product.

If they lose that reputation, they'll lose a lot.

[mattbiernat]

I'm the kind of customer who would just as well pay a few more dollars up front to have a better customer service experience through the life of the product.

If they lose that reputation, they'll lose a lot.

couldn't agree more. customer service means a lot to people, just like quality of their thinkpads. the whole thing with EZservice is just embarrassing.... but it adds up and will hurt lenovo in the long run.

[NaT]

It'll be terrible if Lenovo bought the product and service brand reputation from IBM, just to destroy it !

[NS]

Dear fellow thinkpadder, please cool down and don't hyperventilate.. Complain to Lenovo is more effective than ranting inside here...

[tfflivemb2]

Anyone is welcome to complain about the problems that they have had...as long as it is done in a clear, concise and friendly manner, which the OP has done.

As a side note: I would like to point out that I cannot blame Lenovo for changing their policy. In the past, so many people would buy multiple Thinkpads for a variety of reasons...whether to see which one would arrive first, or to decide between models...then they would keep one and send the others back. How is that fair to Lenovo to have to mark down the prices on some of them, because someone couldn't decide, or was playing a game to see which one would arrive first? Even better how is it fair to the consumer that has to wait longer, because someone ordered several Thinkpads just to send some back?

[bevross]

How fair is it to expect people to make such a large purchase sight unseen and have to pay if it turns out they don't like the thing? I would think having a decent return policy would be the price for not having storefronts. That's the only reason I ever returned one (to Dell); the scenarios you mention never occurred to me.

How is that fair to Lenovo to have to mark down the prices on some of them, because someone couldn't decide, or was playing a game to see which one would arrive first? Even better how is it fair to the consumer that has to wait longer, because someone ordered several Thinkpads just to send some back?

[ZaZ]

From the buyers perspective, people pay good money for these machines. A lot of people get them sight unseen as there are limited opportunities to see ThinkPads in person. Common sense dictates that some people for whatever reason aren't going to bond with their machines. Plus with the lower price points more people are getting them When people were paying $3k for a ThinkPad, I think it was a little easier to be forgiving with the returns. It was more of an investment than a commodity like now.

I would agree that notebooks are one of the most abused returns. Just like Costco, some bad apples ruined it for everyone.

[tselling]

If you have the link to this return policy:

http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/cont ... rns_policy

I would give it to the CS and try again to return without a restocking fee. If its on their site they should honor it.