Just about to buy a t61p, worried about the "noise issu

[livejazz]

Hi,

I am about to purchase a t61p with FX 570 graphics and 1900 WUXGA..all great stuff.

However, I have always suffered issues over noise with thinkpads in one form or another, and so was concerned to see people raising issues over "buzzing" sounds in their t61p.

I need to know quickly...if there is a real issue here, or just a few individual problem cases.

Can anyone with a t61p please say if they have had any issues or not.

much appreciated

[bevross]

I suppose you've read this thread:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=48005

My recording at

http://dcguitar.net/MP3/T61p_noise.mp3

amplifies the noise to a great degree.

From the thread, at least 3 systems had the noise -- my 14" T61p and two 15.4" T61p systems that poster famman had. The noise is not really loud -- for instance, I can't hear it if the air conditioning is blowing. But, I'd like to know what it's due to. For me -- I only get it on battery power; as soon as I plug in the power it goes away.

[BradS]

I'm pretty sure the sound people are hearing is one that has been nicknamed the "core 2 duo whine" by owners of core 2 duo notebooks that have experienced this sound. It seems to effect notebooks of all manufacturers and the sound appears to be coming from the processor.

[livejazz]

really interesting, is it possible to switch it off in the bios? can someone check..

for example, it is on an HP
http://geekswithblogs.net/dlussier/arch ... 13193.aspx

[bevross]

Here's the HP link:
http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/gene ... R1002_USEN

This helps explain why it appears only on battery power, not plugged in (in my case).

I'm pretty sure the sound people are hearing is one that has been nicknamed the "core 2 duo whine" by owners of core 2 duo notebooks that have experienced this sound. It seems to effect notebooks of all manufacturers and the sound appears to be coming from the processor.

[BradS]

Here is another thread on the issue: http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthr ... ight=whine

The last post reads:

I just wanted to follow up here:

-Checking the "Disable C4 mode" fixed the problem, but caused hard freezes in my computer multiple times over only a day or two.

-Un-checking "Enable Popup mode" also fixed the problem, and I'm running on a week or so, so far, without a single crash.


Also, un-checking "enable popup mode" doesn't seem to hurt battery life nearly as badly as disabling C4 mode.

[barrywohl]

My T61p with WUXGA and T7700 processor is the quietest and best ThinkPad I've ever owned. No crashes in two plus weeks of constant use.

I first started using ThinkPads in 1995 and my previous ThinkPads include 755CX, 760CD, A21p, R50p, R51e and a few I've forgotten.

I do wish someone made a WUXGA IPS screen, but this screen is great except when side by side with my UXGA IPS screen on the R50p.

In summary, "no regrets."

[Kel Ghu]

I'm pretty sure the sound people are hearing is one that has been nicknamed the "core 2 duo whine" by owners of core 2 duo notebooks that have experienced this sound. It seems to effect notebooks of all manufacturers and the sound appears to be coming from the processor.

No, it does not only come from core 2 duo. I had that sound on my T43p, T60p, X60t and i think my T61p will have it too...

[rbena]

My T61p with WUXGA and T7700 processor is the quietest and best ThinkPad I've ever owned. No crashes in two plus weeks of constant use.

That's really good to hear. Would you be able to post your CPU and GPU temperatures under both idle and full load, using TPFanControl or similar? Thanks so much.

[bevross]

A guy in this forum thread posted some YouTube clips; the noise is just like what I recorded! See:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/vi ... hp?t=40260

[DenisBY]

I just bought T61 with T7300 and don't hear any noise.

[sb37]

Hopefully this will be a somewhat definitive answer, since I've researched it extensively (and excessively).

1) The noise is the result of the power management on Core 2 Duo chips. It is not Lenovo's doing, and affects all Core 2 Duo chips, as well as many previous chips that have advanced power management. Faster ones have louder sounds, it seems.
2) The noise is the result of Popup/Popdown functions, which move the chip into and out of S4 state. This happens when the computer is relatively idle, and will happen when you don't think the comptuer is idle (you stop moving the mouse for a few seconds, stop typing, etc).
3) The noise comes from some sort of change in voltage. It is very high-pitched and can only be heard by young people (like the Mosquito ringer). So if you hear it, be happy that you have good hearing!

There are a few solutions, if it bugs you.
1) RightMark CPU tool. This lets you disable popdown and popup mode, and noise disappears completely. Has some effect on battery life and CPU heat, although nothing drastic it seems. There are full instructions on the RightMark forums about using the tool to eliminate the whine.
2) Disable power-saving in BIOS. This disables all power-saving, so worse for batteries than RightMark, but certainly easier than navigating that tool.
3) Change power settings in Power Management (Windows). If you switch Power Management off of adaptive onto Low for battery and High for AC, it seems to reduce the noise, although does not completely eliminate it like RM. It also increases processor use.
4) Suck it up. I used RightMark for awhile, but then realized I didn't care that much and disabled it. Hasn't bothered me since. If you don't think about it, it won't bother you. The power of the human mind, and the beauty of habituation!

So that should help anyone who is intent on eliminating the noise. Buying an HP won't make a huge difference, although they offer an extra BIOS setting which eliminates the noise with less of a negative impact on power use than the Lenovo BIOS setting, by disabling S4 rather than all power features. Hopefully Intel will recognize the problem and fix it with the next generation of chips, but it really isn't the end of the world.

[rbena]

Many thanks for your detailed reply on this.

The power of the human mind, and the beauty of habituation!

We need an acronym for that!

[badblood]

Just bought a T61p and dont hear any noise. I have it plugged in pretty much 100% of the time. The dreaded cpu whine I read about seems to manifest during power saving modes ( with the cpu throttling down) and I have yet to experience that.

[bevross]

This may be a possible fix! I read about it in the Dell Notebook Reviews forum, tried it, and don't hear the noise:

In Device Manager, under Universal Serial Bus controllers
change all the USB Root Hub Power Management properties to:
"Allow the computer to turn off this device to save power"

Maybe this'll increase battery life, too? Any downside?

[barrywohl]

No noise. T61p T7700 WUXGA,

[sb37]

may i ask how old you are? my personal feeling is that the noise does exist on all core duo / core 2 duo machines, but can only be heard by those [roughly] under 30; indeed intel itself and other manufacturers have admitted that the noise is "by design" and not a manufacturing glitch, so all machines have it. perhaps you can try listening to the so-called "mosquito ringtone" and see if you hear anything; i assume it's in a similar range as the core 2 duo whine. for this reason, it's not really useful to do any kind of polling, unless we include age.

[erik]

may i ask how old you are? my personal feeling is that the noise does exist on all core duo / core 2 duo machines, but can only be heard by those [roughly] under 30...

i'm "under 30" with absolutely perfect hearing and can only hear this so-called noise when my ear is 2" from the keyboard -- and that's a completely unrealistic way to use my thinkpad as i can't see the screen very well.   heck, i never even knew my T61p made this noise until i read this thread and put my ear close enough to hear it.   the fan and hard drive both overpower it even when there is no other ambient noise.

imo, this issue has been blown WAY out of proportion and people are becoming paranoid for no reason.   it's like everyone has a case of "computer hypochondria" and we'll soon be seeing commercials for prescription "CH" pills to cure them.

[sb37]

i do agree that it's a very minor issue that can be ignored. however, i can certainly hear it from across the room if i listen for it. i'm 22, and I'd say I'm particularly sensitive to high-pitched noises; for instance, I can hear buzzing out of all CRT monitors, TVs, etc. while most people cannot.

That being said, it's not worth worrying about, and you won't avoid it by buying a different brand.

[erik]

i do agree that it's a very minor issue that can be ignored. however, i can certainly hear it from across the room if i listen for it. i'm 22, and I'd say I'm particularly sensitive to high-pitched noises; for instance, I can hear buzzing out of all CRT monitors, TVs, etc. while most people cannot.

my hearing is easily that good (i can also hear CRTs from a distance) and my T61p absolutely does not make a noise like that.   if your thinkpad is that loud then i guarantee it's 1000x louder than mine.

[barrywohl]

may i ask how old you are? ... can only be heard by those [roughly] under 30....

30 x 2

[bevross]

... can only be heard by those [roughly] under 30

near 60 -- was able to hear it easily (though my 'fix' discussed above makes it near inaudible). cf: my recording linked above where you can compare it to the sleep beep.

[sb37]

i don't know what to say erik - i hear it on the 7300 and the 7700, as well as lots of other computers i come in contact with. so unless every computer i've seen is somehow defective, i think that's standard behavior of the power-saving mechanism in newer intel chips.

i'm sure your hearing is very good, and i don't mean to insult it, but clearly your sensitivity to high-pitched noises isn't as good as mine. that's probably a good thing, as the hisses lots of electronics give off are quite irksome.

[erik]

i don't know what to say erik - i hear it on the 7300 and the 7700, as well as lots of other computers i come in contact with. so unless every computer i've seen is somehow defective, i think that's standard behavior of the power-saving mechanism in newer intel chips.

i'm sure your hearing is very good, and i don't mean to insult it, but clearly your sensitivity to high-pitched noises isn't as good as mine. that's probably a good thing, as the hisses lots of electronics give off are quite irksome.

your intent may not be to offend but you do seem to be caught up in some sort of "i'm better than you" contest.   there is no way you can contest my hearing based off of your own anecdotal assertions from some thread on an internet forum.   i've already said that i can hear CRTs from across the room just like you.   what more do you want?

i have heard this noise in other C2D computers -- namely two macbook pros.   i have not, however, heard it in my thinkpad whatsoever unless i put my ear to the keyboard.   my girlfriend (who is 20 with absolutely perfect hearing) has never once complained about any noises from either her or my thinkpad and i know for a fact that she can hear other electronic noises just like myself.

unless you can prove that your hearing is somehow superior to mine (which i seriously doubt you can) then please be more careful with your words.   i'd appreciate it.

[sb37]

once again, that's not my intention, and i'm sorry if i offended you. My purpose here is not to suggest superior hearing, but that all the intel chips have the same problem with whining, no matter what manufacturer or model.

intel acknowledges the problem, and it's not limited to defective models. it's related to voltage switching due to the shift from s3 to s4 power states, and the severity of the noise is linked to power settings, both in software and bios. if you hear the noise less than me, it's not necessarily because of hearing, although it can be (our hearing degenerates naturally, particularly with respect to noises at the high and low end of the spectrum), it's because your power settings are configured in such a way that the sound is less severe.

i don't think you can disagree with any of this; i assume that your goal here is to defend your beloved thinkpad, but the facts are quite objective and that should bring this silly argument to an end.

[JaneL]

i don't think you can disagree with any of this; i assume that your goal here is to defend your beloved thinkpad, but the facts are quite objective and that should bring this silly argument to an end.

Watch it.

[ulrich.von.lich]

Excuse me but does hearing have anything to do with age?

My dad can seem to hear better because he can always distinguish between MP3s and CDs on our hi-fi system but I can't. I sometimes miss phone calls because I can't hear them and I'm 22.

[Hellbore]

Excuse me but does hearing have anything to do with age?

It definitely does.

We are specifically talking about extremely high frequencies that are outside the normal frequencies heard in voices and music.

It is a known fact that as you age your ear naturally becomes less sensitive to high frequencies. Your dad might have a very good ear for music but that is really irellevant, we are talking about losing the ability to hear very high pitched noises that are much higher pitched than 99% of the music you hear. For example, noises above 15.7 khz or so are not usually audible by people over the age of 30. We aren't talking about music here, this is noise that you really would never "need" to hear and if you lost the ability to hear it, you wouldn't miss it.

Even though your Dad seems to have better hearing than you, it is quite possible that if you played a 16khz tone you could probably hear it and he probably couldn't, unless your ears are damaged or something or you listened to too much loud music and caused yourself premature high-frequency hearing loss.

If you want to try this, here is a 16khz tone I made, it lasts for 3 seconds. if you want to test your dad, try playing this and see if you can hear it and if he can hear it:
http://jerry.cleedo.com/16khz.wav

Please note, if you only hear the "click" at the beginning when it starts playing, that doesn't count. The point is if you can hear the tone in the middle. I'm not sure why there is a click at the beginning. Another thing to watch out for, if you play this tone on crappy speakers, they can sometimes distort and create harmonics that are much lower frequency than the actual tone, those could be easier to hear. Anyways hopefully your speakers can play the tone correctly so you can try this

note: My T61P seems to be able to play the tone just fine. I am 29 years old and I can barely hear the tone, but it is EXTREMELY annoying and makes me feel nauseated hearing it. I kind of think it's probably not good for your ears to listen to something like this very often.

[erik]

If you want to try this, here is a 16khz tone I made, it lasts for 3 seconds. if you want to test your dad, try playing this and see if you can hear it and if he can hear it:
http://jerry.cleedo.com/16khz.wav

for the record, that HURT my ears and the volume on my T61p was only at 50%.

[ulrich.von.lich]

If you want to try this, here is a 16khz tone I made, it lasts for 3 seconds. if you want to test your dad, try playing this and see if you can hear it and if he can hear it:
http://jerry.cleedo.com/16khz.wav

for the record, that HURT my ears and the volume on my T61p was only at 50%.

Yes I can hear it! Are you saying I'll no longer be able to hear it when I'm 30 THat's scary!!! What else will change after 30?

I think it's like the kind of annoying sound you'd hear when you hold a mic near a speaker or sometimes when you get too close in a concert, isn't it?