Thinkpads Forum

Hi, just a quick question is it possible to get this card to work in a T60p? Thanks

I could be wrong but I don't believe it's supported.

Just get an Atheros a/b/g/n instead, which I guarantee works in a T60p (using one right now without any BIOS hacks).

-- Nathan

EDIT: Just checked the latest HMM, and the Intel a/b/g/n is not listed as a supported part. If you want to gamble, go ahead, but the Atheros/IBM one works a treat if you absolutely need 11n...

Which one is the Atheros?
When I go to lenovo.vom, I don't see Atheros. The one I got with my T61 was the Intel WiFi Link 4965AGN, and I have to say that this is the best wifi card I have ever used. I put it side by side with my Z61t, and my HP ZD8000, and it picks up a ton more wifi networks and with better signals.

Lenovo has a bios check that keeps the standard Intel 4965AGN card from working in their machines. Only cards purchased from Lenovo are supported. So don't believe their product description, the wifi card detail should indicate that their PCI Express slot does NOT support cards that are not bought from Lenovo, even if they are cards on the 'supported cards' list.

tomb01 wrote:Lenovo has a bios check that keeps the standard Intel 4965AGN card from working in their machines. Only cards purchased from Lenovo are supported.

Well...yes and no.

Lenovo is looking at the PCI vendor and product IDs in their BIOS whitelist code. Since they only ever sold specific cards with specific models, and those cards were FCC-certified in the T6x system of a given era, you should be able to buy the exact same card direct from the manufacturer of the card or another vendor who sells it. It is true that, in the case of the Atheros cards, you cannot just buy any Atheros chipset-based card and throw it in. That is because the card usually bears a vendor and product ID combo that is unique to the manufacturer of the *CARD*, not the chipset manufacturer (Atheros). Atheros, unlike Intel, doesn't make CARDS (unless you count reference-design boards), only CHIPSETS.

I have heard rumors to the effect that in the case of Intel Centrino cards, IBM/Lenovo was/is purchasing custom cards from Intel that are identical to the normal Intel ones in every respect except that they bear a unique PCI vendor/product code "signature" that allows the BIOS to tell if you got one supplied direct from Lenovo or not. I don't know how much credibility to assign these rumors as I have not done enough research on that particular issue.

However, this is really all beside the true point here. MY point in my original reply post to this thread was more to the effect that even if you bought an Intel 4965AGN direct from Lenovo or pulled one out of a T61 that it shipped in and tried to use it in a T60, even though it may be the IBM/Lenovo version of the card and not the 'generic' version, it is probably not going to work inside of your T60, IBM part or not. That is because the T60 was released BEFORE the 4965AGN was, never passed FCC certs inside of a T60 (so a T60 with one installed would not be considered an "FCC Certified" wireless system), and so even the latest BIOS release for the T60 most likely does not have a whitelist entry for the 4965AGN of ANY variety, IBM-sourced or non. This speculation is borne out by the fact that the Hardware Maintenance Manual does NOT list the 4965AGN as a possible FRU for any T60.

I should also point out, though, that IBM has been known in the past to graciously and silently add cards to the whitelists of future BIOS updates for cards that came out after a particular model, and have also been known to add old cards to whitelists of newer ThinkPad models that were never paired with such cards for sale by IBM. So there is hope. The question is, who wants to be the guinea-pig?

Hope this helps,

-- Nathan

I am a little confused. If I purchased the upgrade built into my t61 from lenovo.com, will my card work the way it should?

So far it is by far the best wifi card I have ever used. EXCELLENT reception.

kingweb wrote:I am a little confused. If I purchased the upgrade built into my t61 from lenovo.com, will my card work the way it should?

If you own a T61, and you didn't get the 4965AGN stock with it, and you order it from Lenovo as an upgrade and add it yourself, it will work fine. The question the OP posed has no relation to your hypothetical question/situation at all since you are simply buying and adding a part to your laptop that you neglected to have included when you originally bought it. The part was made to work with your model as evidenced by the fact that it was an option at purchase time and that it makes an appearance in the Hardware Maintenance Manual for your model.

However, if you own a T60 like the original poster said he has, and you try to buy and use a part that was introduced for use with the T61 or newer, chances are that it won't work because the BIOS doesn't whitelist the part in question.

To answer your previous question, the Atheros one is the one (generically) named "ThinkPad 802.11a/b/g/n" (FRU 42T0825). They seem to be as rare as hen's teeth, though, and I've never seen them offered for sale as an upgrade part in the Lenovo accessory store (unlike the regular Atheros a/b/g MiniPCI-Express).

-- Nathan

Thanks for the clarification. I have the intel wifi link that came with my t61. I didn't add anything later.
When I configured my computer, I assumed that the intel wifi link was the best one because it had the highest price.

I am acutally very pleased with it. However, I am curious to know what does the Atheros have that the one I got doesn't? I keep reading many praises of it.

kingweb wrote:However, I am curious to know what does the Atheros have that the one I got doesn't?

Higher power consumption and more heat.

Not recommended!

Cheers,

Bill B.

bill bolton wrote:Higher power consumption and more heat.

this is true but it does provide a better signal as a result.   as the saying goes, "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch."

Camjoh wrote:Hi, just a quick question is it possible to get this card to work in a T60p? Thanks

No it does not work. If you check out the Lenovo website for thinkpad maintenance manual. you will see the 4965 card has 3 connector whereas the 3945 has only 2. So you're 1 wire short.

erik wrote:this is true but it does provide a better signal as a result.

No, it just gets hot.

Cheers,

Bill B.

NathanA wrote: I have heard rumors to the effect that in the case of Intel Centrino cards, IBM/Lenovo was/is purchasing custom cards from Intel that are identical to the normal Intel ones in every respect except that they bear a unique PCI vendor/product code "signature" that allows the BIOS to tell if you got one supplied direct from Lenovo or not. I don't know how much credibility to assign these rumors as I have not done enough research on that particular issue.-- Nathan

Well, Nathan, I have an Intel Wifi 4965AGN card. Unfortunately, I did not buy it from Lenovo, so it does not contain that "signature". Despite that fact that in all other respects it is identical to the one that Lenovo ships. Unfortunately, at this time Lenovo is not selling the card separately so you cannot add it. Spent a fruitless hour on the phone with lenovo technical support the other day trying to understand why the "Intel WiFi 4965AGN" card in their documentation is not actually supported, to no avail. The card works flawlessly in my Dell D820, but gets the 1802 error in the T61.

I think you are probably right that the T60 may not ever support the 4965AGN, though a bios update may fix that. If and when Lenovo ever does sell the cards separately, they will be able to tell us if the card will work in a T60. The lack of the 3rd antenna, though, may prevent it from ever working in 802.11n mode.

tomb01 wrote:Well, Nathan, I have an Intel Wifi 4965AGN card. Unfortunately, I did not buy it from Lenovo, so it does not contain that "signature". Despite that fact that in all other respects it is identical to the one that Lenovo ships.

The Lenovo OEM firmware in Intel WiFi cards has more differences than just a "signature". Some ThinkPad specific secondary hardware control is also incorporated, and though while not essential for operation it does add to the convenience of use.

Cheers,

Bill B.

bill bolton wrote:The Lenovo OEM firmware in Intel WiFi cards has more differences than just a "signature". Some ThinkPad specific secondary hardware control is also incorporated ...

Really? Such as what, specifically?

I think that there are a few misconceptions here that need some clearing up.

First, tomb01 states that Lenovo is not selling the card separately. Although this is true as far as a strictly retail setting is concerned, I don't think there is anything (except for the price) stopping anyone from calling up IBM Maintenance Parts in Mechanicsburg, PA and ordering the part that way (42T0865 for the Centrino a/b/g/n). I betcha they have 'em.

Second, Bill Bolton claims that the Atheros has no advantage over the Intel except for "higher power consumption and more heat." I don't think Bill is being fair here and telling both sides of the story. I do acknowledge that the Intel is made to be more power consumption friendly than the Atheros models, and that it is this way by design. However, not everything in the Centrino camp is rosy. I have written about my experiences (scroll down to the 'NETWORKING' section) with Intel Centrino cards, both in a professional capacity as well as in the context of my personal ThinkPad. Others on this forum have also made similar comments in the past. Heck, even a Lenovo employee publicly blogged about his preference for the Atheros option, saying this:

Matt Kohut wrote:While I was inside, I swapped the Intel 802.11n card for an Atheros 802.11 a/b/g card, because in my opinion, the Atheros card is a much better performer and has better drivers.

Atheros also has some other strong advantages; namely, fairly wide support within the industry. Atheros chips have a wider range of software support than Centrino. In Linux, Atheros can be used with MadWiFi instead of having to resort to NDISWRAPPER. MacOS recognizes the Atheros as an 'AirPort' card. I have the option of running MikroTik RouterOS on here (maybe even virtualized through VT!) and using it with my Atheros card. With Centrino, you're pretty much limited to Windows for native support.

As far as I've been able to tell, Centrino's only advantages are the power consumption advantage and the brand recognition advantage. Only one out of the two is an actual technical advantage, and even then I found the power advantage useless since I had to disable it completely in order to even get not just acceptable performance, but have it even be usable (again, see my post linked to earlier). I will admit that I have yet to use a 4965 card, so maybe Intel actually, finally got it right this time around, but I'm not going to bet money on it.

Third, moosport states that the reason the 4965 doesn't work in a T60 is because it has "three connectors" and the T60 is "1 wire short." This displays a lack of knowledge of the T60. The third wire is for the MIMO feature of 802.11n, and since the Atheros a/b/g/n DOES show up as a possible part in the T60 Hardware Maintenance Manual, as does the third antenna, it is entirely possible to physically squeeze the 4965 card in the laptop as well as retrofit the required antenna. The reason the 4965 most likely won't work in a T60 has nothing to do with the "number of wires" because that is easily fixed. The reason, as I have stated before, has to do with the BIOS whitelist "feature."

Fourth, a comment about Bill's claim regarding proprietary firmware for the Lenovo version of the 4965, and EOMtp's question. If Bill is right, and Lenovo 4965s have special, customized firmware loaded on them with "secondary hardware control" functions, I would imagine that such functions probably have something to do with implementing required hooks for making certain ThinkVantage applications, such as Access Connections for example, work properly. I don't know for certain, though.

-- Nathan