Thinkpads Forum

I'm thinking of getting a T61p series laptop since the X61s series do not have discrete graphics (bummer). Anyhow, is the next line of T series laptop on the horizon soon? So am I plunking down loads of cash for last years technology?

In previous years, since I got my X31 it seemed like new models were always introduced in March.

unless there is a compelling reason why "last year's technology" doesn't fit your needs, i would buy now.   we won't see another major overhaul in processor technology until the nehalem architecture hits in 2009.

besides, no one who actually knows what is coming can say anything about it.   every response you get will be pure speculation.

Plus the t61 prices have settled quite nicely. If and when a TXXX series comes you will pay a premium for first couple of months.

Lets say they announce in June ship in late july prices will be high through end of september. Do you really want to wait 7 months.

erik wrote:unless there is a compelling reason why "last year's technology" doesn't fit your needs, i would buy now.   we won't see another major overhaul in processor technology until the nehalem architecture hits in 2009.

besides, no one who actually knows what is coming can say anything about it.   every response you get will be pure speculation.

The compelling reason for me is due to mostly one reason "graphics card". The current X61s series has integrated graphics which is apparently to slow for me. I would like to do some light game development with XNA.

So I can't use the perfect form factor of the X61s and have to compromise and move up to the T61p series with the Quadro FX570 series card. Now, if they came out with a new model I'm almost certain the discrete graphics will be upgraded too... Is there a new integrated graphics from Intel on the horzion?

Also, it appears the penryn has 3MB cache at the same speed as the previous iteration. What is more important to performance(not power consumption) cache (3mb vs. 4mb) or frequency (2.4 GHz or 2.2 GHz)?

the X300 is the newest thinkpad and it still has the same intel integrated graphics as the rest of the X-series.   the X-series are designed for battery life so you aren't likely to see them offered with discreet graphics anytime soon if ever.   the T61p's nvidia quadro FX 570M is the best thing available right now if you need a discreet GPU.

the 2.5GHz T9300 and 2.6GHz T9500 penryn processors have 6MB on-die cache, not 3MB.   when compared to the 2.4GHz T7700 with 4MB cache, the difference is within 10%.   unless you are doing processor-intensive tasks, you aren't likely to notice any difference between any of them.

erik wrote:the X300 is the newest thinkpad and it still has the same intel integrated graphics as the rest of the X-series. the X-series are designed for battery life so you aren't likely to see them offered with discreet graphics anytime soon if ever. the T61p's nvidia quadro FX 570M is the best thing available right now if you need a discreet GPU.

the 2.5GHz T9300 and 2.6GHz T9500 penryn processors have 6MB on-die cache, not 3MB. when compared to the 2.4GHz T7700 with 4MB cache, the difference is within 10%. unless you are doing processor-intensive tasks, you aren't likely to notice any difference between any of them.

The Centrino 2 platform has been announced, so that won't make Lenovo (and other manufacturers) look to make new models? The T61/p series has been out for a while now, but then again, I have never really paid much attention to how long each series has lasted in the past...until now.

How long was the T42/p, T43/p, and T60/p series around for? Anybody? The T60/p series was being manufactured for at least 1 1/2 years...Hmm...Although warranty seems to be no issue, as there are still T42/p's with warranty ending this year.

Lenovo would be crazy to put an nvidia toaster oven into the X-series. But I'm sure they will be updated to the next integrated intel graphics, the GMA 4500. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrino#M ... .282008.29, Intel plans to release that chipset in June. How buggy the drivers will be immediately after release is up to your imagination

Also AMD plans to release their new mobile platform in May/June so we can expect 'some' competition on the laptop market. And IMO Lenovo would like to compete too.

I'm in a similar situation. I've been looking to spend around £1000 on a T61p from eBay (Astronomical prices here in the UK) but if there's going to be a new 13'' / 14'' T Series introduced then I'd rather be able to carry around a lighter rucksack for reduced power.

Given all the talk of the X300 and others in a new line of products, I'm very excited to see what might become the new T series. I wouldn't want to be left behind with the last of the old technology. I'd rather pay a bit extra, wait a bit longer and have the first of the new breed.

Volker wrote:Lenovo would be crazy to put an nvidia toaster oven into the X-series. But I'm sure they will be updated to the next integrated intel graphics, the GMA 4500. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrino#M ... .282008.29, Intel plans to release that chipset in June. How buggy the drivers will be immediately after release is up to your imagination

So what can I expect in terms of performance on the graphics card? That is what is holding me back. I really want an X series laptop, but the current integrated grahpics is not powerful enough. I'm hoping the GMA 4500 is considerably better and can at least meet my requirements....

leesiulung wrote:I really want an X series laptop, but the current integrated grahpics is not powerful enough. I'm hoping the GMA 4500 is considerably better and can at least meet my requirements....

what exactly do you do with your thinkpad?   knowing your specific uses might help others give you better advice.

leesiulung. wrote:...the current integrated grahpics is not powerful enough. I'm hoping the GMA 4500 is considerably better and can at least meet my requirements....

It not at all clear what you expect would be powerful enough.... but my guess is that you will still not be satisfied by the next generation of Intel "integrated" GPUs.

Cheers,

Bill B.

erik wrote:

leesiulung wrote:I really want an X series laptop, but the current integrated grahpics is not powerful enough. I'm hoping the GMA 4500 is considerably better and can at least meet my requirements....

what exactly do you do with your thinkpad?   knowing your specific uses might help others give you better advice.

Well, my specific intended use for the laptop is XNA (www.xna.com) and some very light gaming in addition to the normal programming/codign and office productivity applications. As far as I know, the X3100 is just barely sufficient at the moment. I would like to have some room to grow.

leesiulung wrote:I really want an X series laptop, but the current integrated grahpics is not powerful enough. I'm hoping the GMA 4500 is considerably better and can at least meet my requirements....

Considering that many *desktops* are not fast enough to play today's games, you probably won't be satisfied. It'll take many years until that quad-SLI card fits into an X-series...

Volker wrote:

leesiulung wrote:I really want an X series laptop, but the current integrated grahpics is not powerful enough. I'm hoping the GMA 4500 is considerably better and can at least meet my requirements....

Considering that many *desktops* are not fast enough to play today's games, you probably won't be satisfied. It'll take many years until that quad-SLI card fits into an X-series...

Well, I wasn't looking for a super powerful graphics card in the X-series. My main concern is adequate processing power for XNA and less so as a gaming computer. Something equivalent to a Geforce 7600GS would be more than sufficient.

Only the T61p is really comparable to the 7600 in performance. If that is what you expect - then the next generation integrated won't do.

In second quarter 2008, Intel will release the new Cantigia mobile chipset, as part of the fifth-generation Centrino platform - Montevina. Here are the main attractions of the chipset.
* Faster BUS - 1066 MT/s front side bus.
* Faster RAM - RAM supported for DDR2-667, DDR2-800, DDR3-800 and DDR3-1066 SO-DIMM.
* Better GPU - GMA X4500 graphics technology and ICH9M southbridge. Added hardware acceleration for HD DVD and Blu-Ray.
* DisplayPort - Main support for DisplayPort with an external connector attached to the motherboard along with full supplemental support of the older HDMI, DVI, and VGA standards

The new Montevina platform also includes the second generation penryn CPU.
* Cooler - It is planned to consume no more than 29W, compared to Merom's and first-generation Penryn's 34W TDP.


The release schedule of new laptops is almost always in lockstep with release schedule of new chipsets and CPUs. Looks like the rumor is right that T400 will be out in June. I will choose X200 instead, because I hardly use my DVD drive. If X200 come with a DisplayPort, wide screen, webcam, fast CPU, GPS, 12+ hours of battery life, and is cool & quiet, less than 3 lbs, it will be the perfect laptop I've been looking for.

The leaked specs of upcoming Dell laptops is using the new Montevina platform. Here are the treats: DisplayPort, integrated GPS, max 8GB RAM. T400 will be using the same Montevina platform, thus will have similar specs.
http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/22/dell ... s-pack-gp/

to the OP:

As long as Lenovo plans to target the road worriors with their X series, you will never find a discreet, let alone a powerful card. maximazing battery life and having a powerful or even semi powerful graphics card is mutually exclusive of each other. The main focus of the X series is size and battery life, everything else is secondary.

Maybe its time to prioritize what is more important to you. Size/battery life or performance.

What about the max memory these laptops support? I want to add more than 4gb of RAM. I do programming and run heavy applications. I want to go 64bit but dont think 4gb is sufficient. I have 3gb right now with Vista 32bit and I get low on memory all the time. I wonder what would happen if I was running 64bit.

Does anyone know if the new T's will have a higher max memory?

Also, does anyone know when the T61p 15.4" 6459 will get updated? I already have a T61 and want to give it to another employee, but want to wait until there has been at least some upgrade before I buy a new one.

Presumably you can upgrade the T61 already to 8gb if you can find (and afford) two 4gb S0-DIMMs.

But if you really need >4gb then I'd rather run those tasks on a network-connected server. Much more headroom for upgrades

T400?do you want this?

Volker wrote:Lenovo would be crazy to put an nvidia toaster oven into the X-series. But I'm sure they will be updated to the next integrated intel graphics, the GMA 4500....

Can you clarify this stmt, please. At first read I think you're saying it would give off too much heat. Or are you also saying it consumes too much power (for a laptop), and as a result gives off too much heat? Or am I reading too much into this?

As a side note, I also see in the 4-14-2008 tabook.pdf, they list the power consumption of the Graphics chipsets. For example on the various T61s, all the GMA Graphics are listed at 65 or 66 watts, whereas the NVIDIAs are all listed at 90 Watts.

XCoalMiner wrote:

Volker wrote:Lenovo would be crazy to put an nvidia toaster oven into the X-series. But I'm sure they will be updated to the next integrated intel graphics, the GMA 4500....

Can you clarify this stmt, please. At first read I think you're saying it would give off too much heat. Or are you also saying it consumes too much power (for a laptop), and as a result gives off too much heat? Or am I reading too much into this?

I'm pretty much sure you are reading too much into this But thanks to energy conservation whatever electrical power electrical power goes into a laptop must come out as heat (plus some lcd backlight and other negligible things). A 90W laptop heats like a 90W light bulb.

Volker wrote:I'm pretty much sure you are reading too much into this But thanks to energy conservation whatever electrical power electrical power goes into a laptop must come out as heat

No. Energy will be conserved but it won't all converted into heat.

Cheers,

Bill B.

bill bolton wrote:

Volker wrote:But thanks to energy conservation whatever electrical power electrical power goes into a laptop must come out as heat

No. Energy will be conserved but it won't all converted into heat.

For all practical purposes the whole electrical energy is converted into heat. Of course there are some other outputs: Light emitted from the display and noise emitted from the fan. And you can store energy in the battery or magnetic fields on the hdd, but that is only temporary and you'll eventually convert it to heat when you run your battery down / overwrite that file.

The biggest non-heat output is probably the light emission, since that is especially built to emit something. A small ccfl emits about 10-15% of the incoming electrical power into light, the rest goes into heat. LEDs fare a bit better and you get up to 20% efficiency. In any case, your laptop emits < 1W in visible light.

Volker wrote: I'm pretty much sure you are reading too much into this But thanks to energy conservation whatever electrical power electrical power goes into a laptop must come out as heat (plus some lcd backlight and other negligible things). A 90W laptop heats like a 90W light bulb.

If not power consumption or heat generation, ... then I'm still not sure what this means. Toaster oven refers to size, takes up too much volume? Sorry, I'm dense on this topic!

awolfe63 wrote:Only the T61p is really comparable to the 7600 in performance. If that is what you expect - then the next generation integrated won't do.

Even the V5200 is faster than than the 7600, let alone GS .. that is unless they have made some wicked tweaked drivers for the past few months

XCoalMiner wrote:As a side note, I also see in the 4-14-2008 tabook.pdf, they list the power consumption of the Graphics chipsets. For example on the various T61s, all the GMA Graphics are listed at 65 or 66 watts, whereas the NVIDIAs are all listed at 90 Watts.

That power wattage is for the AC adapter (to power the entire notebook), and not just to power the specific graphics chipset.

That is of course under full load, plus there is a safety margin / excess with sizing the adapter. You can check the notebook's actual power draw when on battery, using MobileMeter and also likely the notebook's Power Manager.

XCoalMiner wrote:

Volker wrote:thanks to energy conservation whatever electrical power electrical power goes into a laptop must come out as heat (plus some lcd backlight and other negligible things).

If not power consumption or heat generation, ... then I'm still not sure what this means.

No, thats what I meant. Discrete graphics uses too much electrical power. Discrete graphics produces too much heat. Using too much power is essentially equivalent to producing too much waste heat. Neither one is desirable in a laptop, especially in a small, light system.

Volker wrote:Discrete graphics uses too much electrical power. Discrete graphics produces too much heat.

No argument there... and Plenty of discussion re GPU heat on this forum... it's excess power - unless you're a gamer or need the video performance for other apps.

Do you feel the Intel integrated graphics is also excessive?