Thinkpads Forum

Last year when the T60 was discontinued, my Lenovo rep told me that the T61 would only be available in widescreen models, and that the entire industry was going widescreen.

Perhaps the prognostication was merely a few months early, and we're now seeing the end of the 4:3 display.

Or perhaps the supply of 4:3 displays is temporarily disrupted. Mass-scale slim-profit manufacturing can be fragile. Containers fall off ships, molds break, production lines get moved.

Isn't there a new generation of notebooks afoot? It may be that there's little enough demand for 4:3 that they're ending T61 production early and we won't see new 4:3s until after the widescreens are shipping. Much the way BMW releases the sedan first, convertible second, M version third, we may just have to wait a few months for the "enthusiast" model :)

Personally, I can't stand widescreen models, especially when applications are still top-menu oriented. Perhaps if the plethora of menus and buttons and status indicators today's applications are saddled with could be universally undocked and pinned to one side, I might like them better. But probably not.

As a 4:3 devotee (I tried a t61p widescreen, but loathed it with a passion, sold it and used the proceeds to buy a spare T60 and T60p, which are now mothballed) and experienced in commerce, I despair at the notion of people who complain about what they see as a supplier manipulating them into buying what the supplier wants to sell, but then go ahead anyway, and buy the product.

If TP users refused to buy another TP until a 4:3 Flexview IPS (or equivalent) was made available, Lenovo would find a way. It would be either a case of Lenovo selling to customers what the customers want, or not selling them anything at all.

andrewb wrote:

If TP users refused to buy another TP until a 4:3 Flexview IPS (or equivalent) was made available, Lenovo would find a way. It would be either a case of Lenovo selling to customers what the customers want, or not selling them anything at all.

Truer words have not been spoken.

andrewb wrote:If TP users refused to buy another TP until a 4:3 Flexview IPS (or equivalent) was made available, Lenovo would find a way. It would be either a case of Lenovo selling to customers what the customers want, or not selling them anything at all.

In an ideal world, maybe. Lenovo needs to make money, and the consumer market is HUGE now. I remember reading a report that mentioned that 2006-2007 was the first year when laptop sales exceeded desktop sales. There are going to be people buying thinkpads if the price is right, and nothing (4:3 or IPS or whatever) is going to stop that.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for quality. I hate widescreens and crappy TN panels - but not as much not to buy a computer without which I cannot do my work. I wish that Lenovo would not stop making 4:3 14.1" machines, but if it comes to a choice between not having Lenovo around and not having 4:3 machines around I'll pick the latter. After all, even with all complaints that we have now, thinkpads still are a cut above the rest. Hopefully they will remain that way (and make atleast one 4:3 14.1" model).

gator wrote:

andrewb wrote:If TP users refused to buy another TP until a 4:3 Flexview IPS (or equivalent) was made available, Lenovo would find a way. It would be either a case of Lenovo selling to customers what the customers want, or not selling them anything at all.

In an ideal world, maybe. Lenovo needs to make money, and the consumer market is HUGE now. I remember reading a report that mentioned that 2006-2007 was the first year when laptop sales exceeded desktop sales. There are going to be people buying thinkpads if the price is right, and nothing (4:3 or IPS or whatever) is going to stop that.

Don't get me wrong, I am all for quality. I hate widescreens and crappy TN panels - but not as much not to buy a computer without which I cannot do my work. I wish that Lenovo would not stop making 4:3 14.1" machines, but if it comes to a choice between not having Lenovo around and not having 4:3 machines around I'll pick the latter. After all, even with all complaints that we have now, thinkpads still are a cut above the rest. Hopefully they will remain that way (and make atleast one 4:3 14.1" model).

well said and wisely thought... it's a bussiness man and a thinkpadder talking

andrewb wrote:If TP users refused to buy another TP until a 4:3 Flexview IPS (or equivalent) was made available, Lenovo would find a way.

Why on earth would the whole class of "TP users" be interested in doing that? The vast majority don't care about whether 4:3 screens are available of not

Cheers,

Bill B.

The 16:10 14.1" Thinkpad is 5oz heavier than a 4:3 14.1" Thinkpad and a bit bigger (see a previous post in this thread), but has a smaller screen (89 sq in versus 95; height of 7.5 in versus 8.5in).

Enough said.

bill bolton wrote:

andrewb wrote:If TP users refused to buy another TP until a 4:3 Flexview IPS (or equivalent) was made available, Lenovo would find a way.

Why on earth would the whole class of "TP users" be interested in doing that? The vast majority don't care about whether 4:3 screens are available of not

Cheers,

Bill B.

Well, apparently WE do but the "vast majority" (read businesses) don't give their users a choice - they just buy whatever Big Blue (as it used to be known) offers them! For what it's worth, my company (GlaxoSmithKline) just changed over from 10 years with Thinkpads to widescreen Dells. My X31 will be the last company-owned 4x3 Thinkpad I ever use (and it gets turned in this August).

sktn77a wrote:For what it's worth, my company (GlaxoSmithKline) just changed over from 10 years with Thinkpads to widescreen Dells. My X31 will be the last company-owned 4x3 Thinkpad I ever use (and it gets turned in this August).

... I think I need a hug.

This T61p will do. It's so warm and cuddly and awesome. :hug:

Wow, this is really unfortunate... My T61 will probably be my last ThinkPad.

exTPfan wrote:The 16:10 14.1" Thinkpad is 5oz heavier than a 4:3 14.1" Thinkpad and a bit bigger (see a previous post in this thread), but has a smaller screen (89 sq in versus 95; height of 7.5 in versus 8.5in).

Enough said.

While it's true that the widescreen model has a smaller screen in terms of area, there is more to be said about this. Personally, I love watching movies on my laptop, so even though the screen is smaller, more of it will be used when watcing movies (since almost all movies are widescreen nowadays). I'm not in any way claiming that this is the case for everyone else. I'm simply pointing out that you can't always just look purely at area, or else we should be using laptops with a 1:1 screen ratio rather than a 4:3, since a square laptop will give the most area.

For the others who are saying they won't buy anymore ThinkPads, I'm wondering where you guys will turn to? I'm just wondering what other companies will continue to make standard screen laptops. Who knows, the next T model could have standard screens anyway.

My point of view after going through this discussion is that nobody is trying to convince anybody that one screen is better than another.
I am a 4:3 fan, but that's just me.
Customer should have a choice between both aspect ratios, period.

CZOLG wrote:My point of view after going through this discussion is that nobody is trying to convince anybody that one screen is better than another.
I am a 4:3 fan, but that's just me.
Customer should have a choice between both aspect ratios, period.

I would agree. After using both i actually prefer the widescreen. I do a lot of programming in SQL and C# and the widescreen does make a difference. Same as when i am using spreadsheets. I can see the point on web browsing, but that is 25% of what i do on my T61.

It really is a personal preference.

Well, based upon the fact that the Lenovo Outlet is clearing out primarily 4x3 T61s, it looks like this truly is the end of the aspect ratio that has ruled the world for nearly 70 years!

http://stores.channeladvisor.com/Lenovo ... %20Series/

Onward and Upward!

The end is near!


I don't like T6x widescreen models but I must to admit that I like the X300.

dai wrote:I'm just wondering what other companies will continue to make standard screen laptops.

Panasonic

Get ready for rounded screens next year

Puppy wrote:

dai wrote:I'm just wondering what other companies will continue to make standard screen laptops.

Panasonic

But all of their laptops are very expensive!

I think the switch to widescreen is the most difficult for people who are used to maximizing the active window, because the shape of the window changes. For people who usually view multiple windows at once (like me), the switch is much easier.

pianowizard wrote:But all of their laptops are very expensive!

Guess why. Because they delivers what customers wants. Threre is also Fujitsu-Siemens LifeBook S7110.

pianowizard wrote:I think the switch to widescreen is the most difficult for people who are used to maximizing the active window, because the shape of the window changes.

I don't like the shape of the notebook itself. For example X31, the keyboard "fills" the full size of the notebook. A widescreen model introduces unnecessary vasted space and larger width of the notebook, keeping the same vertical screen resolution but smaller DPI. Where is the benefit ?

Puppy wrote:A widescreen model introduces unnecessary vasted space.

But one can also say that 4:3 laptops have unnecessarily big palm rests, and very often there's also too much unused space between the keyboard and the display. Space is wasted in these two areas because the laptop needs to be deep enough to accommodate the tall screen.

Puppy wrote:For example X31, the keyboard "fills" the full size of the notebook.

My 12.1" HP nc2400's keyboard fills the entire width of the machine. Because this laptop is slightly wider than the 4:3 X-series, it has slightly bigger keys, making it easier to type. Another advantage is that widescreen laptops tend to be shorter than 4:3 ones, so it's easier to use on a plane. I've been flying almost once a week since late February and having such a short laptop really helps. A third reason I like 12.1" widescreen laptops is that they all have 1280x800 resolution, 30% higher than what the 4:3 non-tablet X-series offers. For these reasons, widescreen is the way to go for 12.1" ultraportable laptops IMO.

The whole point here is that Lenovo's moving away from providing pure business machines and are instead switching their production to cater to the "vogue" or "in" crowd.... I could guarantee you that the great majority of business users would prefer a 4:3 screen laptop than lugging around widescreen laptops - first and foremost due to the smaller footprint on a 4:3 screen system.

I can also name you 2 corporations that had no choice from Lenovo when they did a wholesale upgrade of their employees laptops. Meaning, Lenovo never gave these corporations an option of 4:3 laptops, only widescreen models.

I can also tell you guys flat out that the vast majority of those employees working for these two corporations are generally peeved at having to carry around these widescreen computers since these people tend to travel often and would much prefer to have their T4x's back because they were the standard business laptop.

Lenovo's simply pandering to what they "think" people want, instead of continuing a tradition of what made a business laptop GREAT.

Somebody should post a petition and see how many signatures we get. If there is enough signatures we might change the tide in our favor.

I'm a terrible writer though, otherwise I would do it myself.

I just discovered this today and if I knew would have ordered my laptop... This is the single worst thing that in my opinion could happen to the Thinkpads.

icantux wrote:the great majority of business users would prefer a 4:3 screen laptop than lugging around widescreen laptops - first and foremost due to the smaller footprint on a 4:3 screen system.

If you're comparing specifically a 4:3 14.1" T-series with a widescreen 14.1" T-series, then I agree with you that the former has a smaller footprint, because Lenovo did a poor job designing the widescreen version (namely they made the display bezel way too thick). But as we all know, for the same diagonal length, a widescreen actually has a smaller surface area than a 4:3 screen, so that when properly designed, a widescreen 14.1" laptop should have a smaller footprint than a 4:3 14.1" laptop.

I'm certain that with sentiment expressed in this thread Lenovo will not have a problem selling whatever number of 4:3 units they have available at the Outlet...

Personally, I'll be buying, restoring and upgrading old ThinkPads with IPS LCDs...and if and when I decide to buy a new machine, it will most likely not be a ThinkPad...

And I have never owned anything but a ThinkPad up to now...

I have not till this date found a laptop with the little bezel waste that the 4:3 up until and including the T60 series offered.
Widescreen COULD potentially be small in space, but due to the fact that other manufacturers think that webcam has become de-facto it really seems to take up an array of space.
In my opinion Z61t 14.1" wide is a good exception to this and shows how it should be done.

Also, most manufacturers mount the LCD in another way than Lenovo/IBM. The design with screws from the sides is not very popular any longer to hold the lcd into position. Instead L brackets are used instead which take up considerably more space. Apple have cut costs both ways by glueing the LCD instead, if we can call it a solution or just being unkind to the DIY people.

Furthermore, i think that the 4:3 solution is perfect for thinkpads because of the ultranav buttons. On the 4:3 15" T60, there's a space for your thumb to rest without touching the touchpad. IMO, this should have been done on the 15" R and T-series from day one.
Also, it is easier to stuff 4:3 formats into a briefcase because they approach letter-size or A4 well. Finding a small bag for a 15.4" is actually hard, atleast judging from what you can buy around here

pianowizard wrote:

icantux wrote:the great majority of business users would prefer a 4:3 screen laptop than lugging around widescreen laptops - first and foremost due to the smaller footprint on a 4:3 screen system.

If you're comparing specifically a 4:3 14.1" T-series with a widescreen 14.1" T-series, then I agree with you that the former has a smaller footprint,

Yup, yup! I was comparing the T's.

Very, very unfortunate move by Lenovo.... and surprising as well!! I'm very surprised that they'd drop a super-valuable customer base (business people) and retain the "cream of the crop" status in favour of "expanding their market" to pander to those that want (or are convinced they want) a widescreen.

I wonder how long it will take now before Lenovo decides to introduce a new "feature" - glossy screens. [sarcasm] Oh yeah... those are soooooo good - we all need those because, afterall, our competition has glossy screens and every customer out there seems to want one - cuz look: Dell is outselling us and they only offer glossy screens !![/sarcasm]

Lenovo needs a set of balls.

Troels wrote:I have not till this date found a laptop with the little bezel waste that the 4:3 up until and including the T60 series offered.
...

Also, most manufacturers mount the LCD in another way than Lenovo/IBM. The design with screws from the sides is not very popular any longer to hold the lcd into position. Instead L brackets are used instead which take up considerably more space. Apple have cut costs both ways by glueing the LCD instead, if we can call it a solution or just being unkind to the DIY people.

...

Also, it is easier to stuff 4:3 formats into a briefcase because they approach letter-size or A4 well. Finding a small bag for a 15.4" is actually hard, atleast judging from what you can buy around here

Excellent points. I feel very much the same, esp. about the thin LCD bezels that 14.1" thinkpads have had. No other company makes them this way ... the apple (glue) solution is just form over function.

I wouldn't mind a good widescreen - things you're saying, like the thicker display bezel - they seem to me like child diseases and are probably going to go away as soon as T62, T63 or T70 gets out.
The real problem is that Lenovo is not going to make FlexView equipped Thinkpads anymore.
I mean sure, a lot of people don't mind the plain TN panel, but Lenovo could deliver IPS' at least as an option.
Anyway, the sad but true part is that they're going to sell more laptops this way - vast majority of people using laptops are Acer, Asus and NoName users, not ThinkPadders... The build quality is probably going down big time, but they're going to keep it just a little above the HP and Dell in order to preserve tradition. What's the problem then? - the "no compromise" part of the IBM is forever gone.
I must admit, though, Dell has improved it's build quality a lot lately - the Latitude Dx30 and Dx20 are very sturdy - unlike the old D610 or D600 with their wobbly keyboards, wobbly screens... If only they could get rid of those idiotic fonts on the keyboard. Oh and don't get me wrong - I would always buy a ThinkPad over any Dell.

This link still show available TP with 14.1 SXGA and SGA screens

onix wrote:It would seem official:

http://www.engadget.com/2008/04/21/leno ... nkpad-t61/

It's not a formal move and there's no announcement, but it's clearly a growing trend

i guess you missed that part.

if you guys can recall lenovo never even offered a standard when t61 first came out. Then standard screen was available. I think what happened was they ran out of supplies on standard screen and like they always do, they take the option off the website so no one can order them, while it is still available through phone.

they obviously knows that their standard screen sells well. and i will not freak out until lenovo comes out with an official statement. even then, if a petition is made they will probably bring it back. lenovo is like that.

and jimmy247, stop speculating. when lenovo first took over everyone thought that company will ruin thinkpad. now 2 years later not only they kept thinkpad they way it is, they improved upon it. flexview is a supply issue rather than a company policy. if no one makes a part anymore, you can either stop or start your own plant. and starting a display plant is a LOT of money.

I for one, am willing to embrace our widescreen overlords. But for me, SXGA+ has always been offered at a price point (and size/weight-point) which has always been too good to pass up. I would have preferred a WUXGA 15.4, but not at the c.$300 price premium it would have cost over the SXGA+ 14.1 model at the time when I ordered it. Had the WUXGA been lighter or slimmer, I would have considered it more strongly, even with the price premium. Depending on my needs in the next two years (give or take) my next computer will likely be either another WXGA 12.1 like my Dell Latitude D430 or a WUXGA 15.4 or 17. I do not like the 13 inch or 14 inch widescreen models at the moment. I do like like their compromises in the current iterations. I don't suggest Lenovo discontinue either the 13 or the 14 inch wide. There are plently of users that need something larger than a 12.1 wide, yet don't want a 15.4 wide -- and I can understand that.

I know this thread is mainly about Ts and widescreen Ts, but our users at work have generally been very happy about our widescreen 12.1s (1280x800). They are slightly wider to accomodate a full sized keyboard, yet offere more real estate with a smaller height, so they are easier to use on airplanes and are very light overall. The response from the widescreen 14.1s and 15.4s has been very negative (either from increased heat from the GPU or decreased battery life from same GPU, or additional bulk over a 4:3 of the same screen heigh). The only user who has one and likes it is doing electronic design in Spice at 1680x1050. I do have two users on 1920x1200 at 17 inch Macbook Pros, and they love that resolution. The size weight of that widescreen notebook is not bad. It's far better than many other 17 inch notebooks that I have seen. The Macbook Pro is the chief reason why I am considering WUXGA. Other than a 12.1 WXGA, WUXGA is the first widescreen resolution that I like.