Thinkpads Forum

o1001010 wrote:

flexview is a supply issue rather than a company policy. if no one makes a part anymore, you can either stop or start your own plant. and starting a display plant is a LOT of money.

Do your research prior to making claims like this. IPS LCDs are widely available from the very same manufacturer (Boe-Hydis) that has been used in the past, but Lenovo cuts quality offerings to be able to minimize the costs.

And, yes, if they keep ThinkPad in widescreen form only, they will ruin the brand that they paid billions for.

ruin or not, HP and Dell are market leaders because of those same widescreens. Do you really think Lenovo would care too much if they are number 1 in the market but have a different userbase than they started off with?

A HP machines doesn't compare to a Thinkpad (in my eyes). I always try to steer people away from em but when you can get X for Y dollars, which is alot cheaper than a Thinkpad you think any of my friends (normal people) are gonna see the benefit of a "black ugly Thinkpad" compared to the shiny, blue/pink/green/whatever HP they saw? (Thinkpads have come down for this reason alone i think)

We know why we buy Thinkpads, other users out there would be wondering what all the fuss is about. Even though my GF uses mine and rathers it sometimes she still loves her Dell for reasons that still go over my head. She paid probably $600-700 for that thing and yes it's not looking so great anymore but she still loves it.

So yeah, my point was i think Lenovo (irregardless of the fact that IPS LCDs might or might not be available) is trying to get into the minds of those people (and yes, they outnumber us probably 10:1). If Lenovo can get 10% of them to buy a Thinkpad instead of a HP they might move to number 2 spot instead of number 4 where they are at now. Yes there should be a choice in LCD options. That way we can be satisfied as well as the new customers who like computers for different reaons. But everyone knows, stocking different kinds of food to feed all your children is an expensive lifestyle. Get all the kids to eat the samething (even if they don't all like it) is how we do it in our lives... sorta the same for businesses too. Kids are like our customers, We don't let them (always) have whatever they want now do we?

(offtopic - Hehe.. Wanda Sykes was talking about that... she and her husband formed a business when they got married. They didn't get any customers (kids) so they went out of business that's where that came from above )

Count me among the disappointed.

I like desktop widescreen monitors, but I've always found widescreen laptops big and clunky compared to their 4:3 brethren.

SHoTTa35 wrote:
A HP machines doesn't compare to a Thinkpad (in my eyes). I always try to steer people away from em but when you can get X for Y dollars, which is alot cheaper than a Thinkpad you think any of my friends (normal people) are gonna see the benefit of a "black ugly Thinkpad" compared to the shiny, blue/pink/green/whatever HP they saw? (Thinkpads have come down for this reason alone i think)

Actually, I just bought a T61p from Lenovo and a comparable Dell or HP was 50% MORE expensive! Couldn't believe it! But they (Dell, HP) are marketing to an uninformed consumer base so they can get away with "integrated graphics", meaningless processor numbering, etc etc.

ok....

/me slaps SHoTTa35 with a large trout

Hehe... that's what i get for spouting off info that i know nothing about. I've seen a few like that too though, crazy how it's going these days.

SHoTTa35 wrote:

ruin or not, HP and Dell are market leaders because of those same widescreens. Do you really think Lenovo would care too much if they are number 1 in the market but have a different userbase than they started off with?

Well, first of all, Dell still offers 4:3 LCDs, haven't had the time to check for HP. And that was one of my points: offer all the widescreens that you feel like, but keep the option of a 4:3 as well.

For years ThinkPad has been recognized as the only laptop amongst serious business people, and way further than than that. I could name a few major corporations that have given up on them and switched to Panasonic, and these were big buyers. One of the reasons being that Panasonic allows you to customize the orders to no end, up to the point of sending company-specific restore disks, something that IBM (at least to the best of my knowledge) never bothered to do. And, price is not the issue, since ToughBooks are pretty darn expensive, even when bought in bulk.

Remember, Lenovo has their own brand that can compete with lower-end HPs and Dells, no need for alienating thousands of dedicated ThinkPad users with "this is all that we're going to offer you, so stick it in your pipe and smoke it" type of arrogance. And, mind you, I'm not a Lenovo basher by definition. Many of the things that they've done were the right thing to do, and X300 seems like a step in the right direction as well. However, I'm not going to applaud corporate BS in the respect of "FlexView availability" or "widescreen only" cost-cutting policies. The success of Panasonic ToughBooks shows that price is a far smaller issue for a business user (ThinkPad bread-and-butter target market since its conception) than most corporations would have you believe.

Now, I'm going to go a little bit OT here, but I feel it's somewhat necessary to throw in this type of a comparison to make my point:

When Ford took over Jaguar a little more than two decades ago (against late Sir William Lyons' wishes and better judgement that were made known to his successors before his death) a friend of mine and myself were discussing the takeover, both being Jaguar owners at the time.

" Well, they (Ford) certainly know how to build and sell a car, that's a fact." said my friend.
" Of course they do." I said, "But they have no idea how to build, or sell, a Jaguar."

Fast forward two decades, Ford has both lost the money, and ruined the name recognition of the Jaguar brand. Having owned and driven both pre and post-Ford Jaguars, all I'm going to say is: serves them right.

Hopefully Lenovo will not fall into this type of a trap.

Let's all wait and see.

Well said!

I just really hope that this "official" news isn't as official as it seems.

It appears that Dell and HP have already gone widescreen-only. That doesn't bode well.

There is a HUGE difference between OFFERING widescreen displays, as Lenovo has been doing for quite some time, and NOT OFFERING 4:3 displays. Widescreen fans have what they want; why can't those for whom a non-wide display works better continue to get what they want? Especially if they're willing to pay a premium...

I can only conclude that the LCD panel manufacturers and notebook manufacturers have together decided to eliminate 4:3 displays, probably for reasons of cost -- an XX" widescreen display is actually SMALLER than an XX" 4:3 display, but every consumer moron out there here's "widescreen" and assumes it's BIGGER. After all, the same stupidity worked for televisions...

I hope at the very least that the next-generation of widescreen ThinkPad Ts will be better-packaged. Few things are as irksome as big swaths of empty plastic to either side of a notebook keyboard.

I suppose it's too much to hope that someone will make a premium notebook that incorporates a clever swivel mechanism to turn a widescreen display into a tallscreen display...

Well, Dell still has Latitude D530 in XGA and SXGA+ on a 15" LCD...along with their own version of ToughBook with a 14"....I'll report on HP once I've checked that out.

As of now, there's not a single 4:3 unit offered on Lenovo's site, not including Outlet...

edit: HP has gone widescreen only. Oh well.

I bet the rugged Dell is just behind the curve; they've probably got a stockpile of displays to last them until the next redesign. All the other 14-inchers are widescreen.

I don't think there's anything to regret about getting rid of 4:3 LCD, since they're all TN panels anyway. But that's just me.

ajkula66 wrote:do your research prior to making claims like this. IPS LCDs are widely available from the very same manufacturer (Boe-Hydis) that has been used in the past, but Lenovo cuts quality offerings to be able to minimize the costs.

Perhaps you should do your research. On Boe-Hydis's current site there isn't a single IPS notebook panel listed, only Tablet panels (limited to 12"). Lenovo still buys IPS Tablet panels from Boe-Hydis. Quit blaiming Lenovo, which was the last manufacturer to cling to the dying laptop IPS technology, for the fact that LG no longer wishes to manufacture it and BOE-Hydis went bankrupt.

ajkula66 wrote:And, yes, if they keep ThinkPad in widescreen form only, they will ruin the brand that they paid billions for.

Prove that there is a reliable supply of 4:3 LCDs exists before accusing Lenovo that they "keep" Thinkpad in widescreen only.

ajkula66:
you mentioned that he same supply still makes IPS, then why did the official Lenovo blog released a while back said that they were discontinuing it due to unreliable supplier?

they targets are different amount manufacturers. dell hp and gateway and apple are targeting consumers, and joe everyone who don't know much about computers. people who care about looks and glossy widescreen instead of functionality and engineering. the widescreeen becomes popular was mainly because of the movies and how manufacturer started saying there are more screen resolution. (kinda like how they claim dtv is better) if the most important part of a computer is there because of movies, then it perfectly reflects who the targeted audiences are.

o1001010 wrote:ajkula66:
you mentioned that he same supply still makes IPS, then why did the official Lenovo blog released a while back said that they were discontinuing it due to unreliable supplier?

unreliable - read "pricy".

o1001010 wrote:dell hp and gateway and apple are targeting consumers, and joe everyone who don't know much about computers.

And you obviously don't much about Dell and HP. They both make two kinds of laptops, one for average consumers and the other for business users. Your local stores only sell the consumer-oriented models, which is why you think Dell and HP target only consumers. Their business laptops are actually excellent in quality and have Thinkpad-like non-flashy designs. I currently have an HP nc2400 which I prefer to all X-series Thinkpads except the X300.

o1001010 wrote:ajkula66:
you mentioned that he same supply still makes IPS, then why did the official Lenovo blog released a while back said that they were discontinuing it due to unreliable supplier?

Probably because the suppliers weren't making enough of these screens.

dr_st wrote:

On Boe-Hydis's current site there isn't a single IPS notebook panel listed, only Tablet panels (limited to 12"). Lenovo still buys IPS Tablet panels from Boe-Hydis. Quit blaiming Lenovo, which was the last manufacturer to cling to the dying laptop IPS technology, for the fact that LG no longer wishes to manufacture it and BOE-Hydis went bankrupt.

Fair enough. They were there when I last checked several weeks ago, not anymore.

dr_st wrote:

Prove that there is a reliable supply of 4:3 LCDs exists before accusing Lenovo that they "keep" Thinkpad in widescreen only.

I don't know how you'd like me to go about defining "reliable", but the very same Boe-Hydis (reliable enough for tablet panels in Lenovo's eyes, obviously) still offers 14" SXGA+ LCD in a 4:3 form...and I haven't even checked any other LCD manufaturer's sites...

And, not for nothing, even if the larger size IPS LCDs are presently not offered on site, let's consider this: Boe-Hydis already makes tablet LCD panels in the IPS form for Lenovo. Had Lenovo any interest in keeping the 15" IPS line alive, do you really believe that Boe-Hydis would say "Nah, we don't want your business !" ????

That's not how things work in the corporate world, and both you and I know it.

And, o1001010 , don't you find strange that the same "unreliable" supplier has been kept by Lenovo for both TN LCDs and tablet IPS panels?

Hmmm............

edit: Just checked Samsung's website and they offer both 14" and 15" standard TN 4:3 LCDs in SXGA+ resolution...

Hmmmm................

ajkula66 wrote:Had Lenovo any interest in keeping the 15" IPS line alive, do you really believe that Boe-Hydis would say "Nah, we don't want your business !" ????

You're insisting on only seeing one side of the coin. Everything is supply and demand. They feed on each other, but there has to be some balance. Just because a demand exists does not mean there will be supply to satisfy it. Also, relying on a single supplier is bad practice in general.

The Tablet market may be small enough to allow Lenovo (for now at least) to keep making these LCDs based only on what Boe can give them. However, if you look at conventional laptop LCDs you will find that Lenovo has always been keeping 2-3 suppliers for every model.

I don't know what IDTech does these days, but LG has clearly decided against continuing IPS, and yes, when you're as big as LG, you can tell even Lenovo "No, we won't be keeping our costly IPS production line just for you".

Alternatively, the might say "We will keep producing X for you, if you commit to buying at least N units of X, at the price of S, to cover our costs." And then Lenovo has to do the math and see if they can sell enough laptops with X to cover their costs.

The equation is much more complicated than can be seen just from reading this forum. The percentage of people who would pay for IPS in this forum is probably less than 50%. And this forum does not reflect the entire Thinkpad user base. In the company I work for, everyone has a Thinkpad (I'm talking about thousands of users). None of them has or ever had IPS (they all have 14") and I don't think more than 1 out of a 100 of the users there even know what IPS is.

I would really like to blame Lenovo, or Boe, or LG for not providing me with the technology I prefer (I am an avid IPS freak myself), but I cannot do this, because I understand perfectly that I'm just one customer, and not a representative one at that. I will not keep their business running. And even though I will go on every forum and talk about how all LCDs these day suck, and how widescreen is idiotic, and how I want this changed, the fact is that currently these are the global trends, and until they are changed, I will not put the blame on the company that for years was the only one keeping these technologies alive, because they've finally given up.

ajkula66 wrote:edit: Just checked Samsung's website and they offer both 14" and 15" standard TN 4:3 LCDs in SXGA+ resolution...
Hmmmm................

Question is - how many of these they offer. In any case, the future of 4:3 is still not entirely clear. It is possible that it will disappear entirely in the next generation of laptops, but if it stays, even on a very low fire, I do believe Lenovo will bring it back in some form as well.

okok i have alot to say:
Piano, I worked in a corporate job for a while for 3 month i used 2 business computers from dell. they are exactly the same as their consumer level computers. as far as hp goes, i only seen them. from a distance i thought it look ridiculously like a thinkpad.

aj:
i know the screen thing is not a lenovo fault. panel manufacturers have been greatly reduce the quality of lcd for years. Now a days even the 22" lcd are TN film crap. Sure, tn film have come a long way and much better than what it was, but it is still no where near ips. But it is cheap and Samsung, which I consider to be the greatest evil in displays, is pushing it. So now it is a pain to find anything but TN film lcds. some people settle for pva now, but i love my ips.

lenovo been on the flame ever since it took over. some people simply bash it because it is a chinese company, go on lenovo forum and i saw a few screw u lenovo posts without listing any reason, and they threaten that they will go apple. unknown to them the lenovo and macbooks are made in the same plant in china. so they hell with them, i say great sell me your thinkpad if you dont want it. i might as well set up a orphanage for thinkpads abandoned by new apple owners due to smog, and i will love every single one of those orphan thinkpads.

btw, a while ago i started a category of all things lenovo did for thinkpads on wikipedia. overall positive.

o1001010 wrote:i used 2 business computers from dell. they are exactly the same as their consumer level computers.

Please read this thread about Dell laptops, especially the posts by me, to learn about the dramatic change in quality in Dell's business line. The D610 (which is only about 2 years old) and earlier Latitudes were junk, but more recent Latitudes and the Vostros are awesome. Most Dell bashers do not understand this point and I always feel compelled to inform them, even though this is a Thinkpad forum.

o1001010 wrote:lenovo been on the flame ever since it took over. some people simply bash it because it is a chinese company

"IBM" is a sacred name for many. Had the Thinkpad brand been bought by another American company (say Dell), many people would have reacted the same way.

Guys, plenty of high quality panels are being made. To name a few:

- Sharp (Advanced Super View or ASV, based on VA)
- S-LCD (Samsung/Sony) (PVA, S-PVA)
- IPS Alpha (M a t s u s h i t a/Hitachi/Panasonic/Canon) (IPS Pro)
- LG Display (S-IPS, Advanced IPS)
- AUO (M-VA)

These companies have full order books and are today building new xth generation factories left, right and center, rolling out millions of high quality panels in the years to come. The only global trend for the panel manufacturers and their owners - the big electronics brands, is - and always has been: how to make the most profit.

And today the most money can be made in LCD TVs and mobile phones. Imo, that market will have been saturated with high quality displays in two years time. Then you'll see the likes of Dell, Lenovo and Acer suddenly finding reliable suppliers for good middle size panels again. The people that are stuck with TN screens now will wow at the sight of the 'new' panels and happily replace their laptops a whole lot faster than they would otherwise do. Ker-ching!

Consumer-driven, my foot. But of course, the world as we know it would come to a shuddering halt if we all stopped buying as much rubbish as we can afford and trash it six months down the line.

Or would it?

icantux wrote:...I don't use the laptop as a gaming rig nor do I use the machine as a personal "mobile movie theater" - so no need for Widescreen. I need and want a computer that is for business use, not a vogue or trendy statement. If I wanted that, I'd get a widescreen Mac or something silly like that.

my sentiments exactly, though i selected a widescreen model for the added real estate of more open window area for applications. the fact that is better for movies, ok i'll take it...

my tp's are not a toys. i love my t60 widescreen for my primary consulting work. and i also love my t23 (retired from the working world) 14" for everything else but professional stuff; small, light and the screen is still sharp as it ever was.

i do like that the t series widescreens are the lightest for its size. my power pack bag carries it and the rest of my mobile office just as comfortable as it did when it carried the t23. i would have never considered a heavy widescreen model. i surely can understand the disappointment if you're so used to the 4:3 format...

i also bought at the same time a t60 15" svga+ that is still in its original box; yeah it's a flexview but i just don't get gaga over stuff like that....someday i'll put it in play, but for now the widescreen is doing the job just fine...

gaphic wrote:

Consumer-driven, my foot. But of course, the world as we know it would come to a shuddering halt if we all stopped buying as much rubbish as we can afford and trash it six months down the line.

Or would it?

First of all, a big THANK YOU for doing the research that I've been intent on doing and saving my time in the process...
And I couldn't have said this better myself.

There is a not-so-fine line between cost-cutting and what I define as "corporate arrogance"...and I'm afraid that Lenovo's crossing into the second field...along with thousands of others that I could really care less for...

dr_st wrote:

You're insisting on only seeing one side of the coin.

I'm afraid I'm actually seeing that coin in 3-D, and am not liking what I'm seeing...because it all seems very deja vu to me...

Once again, completely OT for point-making and comparison purposes only:

During the mid-70's and early 80's two of the best known U.S. guitar manufacturers that I'm leaving nameless in this post have decided to fight Japanese competitors by cost-cutting and pretty much offering garbage to their customers, claiming that their supply of certain woods had run out...and, instead of pushing competition out of the market they've lived to see themselves being pushed out of it at high rate and had to resort to some serious revisions of their product lines...

What they've found out in the process was that:

a) There is only so much garbage that you can sell under an established brand name before you're told to .... (feel free to fill in the blanks yourself)
b) A surprisingly high percentage of people will pay a significantly higher price for quality product if they're actually given that choice.

My, oh my, how all of these trees quickly grew within ten years when the prices for real guitars went up...

Funny enough, a quarter of century later, there is still more rare wood to be found, the same ones that had become extinct in the mid-70s...

Back to my original point: two of Lenovo's original TN panel suppliers (Samsung and Boe) are offering 4:3 LCDs on their websites but Lenovo is not...why?

May the history prove me wrong, but I'm waiting for another "discontinuing the product line due to unreliable suppliers" BS statement from Lenovo...

Personally, I'll wait and see. I own enough ThinkPads to get me through another five years at least. Not that I won't buy another one if they prove me wrong...

So to those who say that 4:3 is unreliable and hard to source, how does that explain why Averatec introduced a semi-rugged notebooks:
http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=4383

I mean, since a company dares to introduce this, it must mean that the source is reliable, or?

well, not to say anything but for rugged notebooks, that doesn't compare to mainstream systems. Ruggeds sell maybe 1/8 as much as a mainstream system so they could have just ordered 100,000 LCDs which shouldn't be that big of a deal compared to 1-2 million notebooks that sell per quater. These LCDs probably cost 2 arms and a leg more so they might not mind making a "small" order to fill a need.

I'm not quoting any facts here.. but i can't imagine ruggeds selling like a macbook or a thinkpad would.

SHoTTa35 wrote:

I'm not quoting any facts here.. but i can't imagine ruggeds selling like a macbook or a thinkpad would.

I'm certain that Panasonic would beg to differ with the assumption stated above. You'd be amazed how well ToughBooks sell. And at what prices...

And, at $1,299 starting price if I'm reading the article correctly, Averatec has a very good chance of selling zillions of these if they can actually stand the torture of field (ab)use...