Should I be concerned? 14" T61p LCD produced in 2005

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RaysMD · #1 Post by **RaysMD** » Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:37 pm

I just took delivery of a brand new T61p 14" SXGA. Probably the last one that Lenovo shipped out.

Anyway, I have no complaints. Just some nagging issues that you may be able to help out with.

First, my LCD has a FRU#42T0431. It's not in any of the hardware maintenance manuals. According to PC Wizard it's a Samsung LCD produced in 2005. It's actually pretty vibrant and brightness is not bad. I hope this is not a refurbished LCD given it's production date.

Secondly, can someone with a 14" 4:3 LCD check along the side of the LCD bezel where it meets the top cover. Check to see if it's easy to left open with just your finger. Mine seems like its not sealed properly. I can probably lift the LCD bezel 1-2 millimeters.

Thanks

Quagmyre · #2 Post by **Quagmyre** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:19 am

Welcome to the club.
I ordered and got my T61p brand new about three weeks ago.
LCD is a WSXGA+ 15.4'' Samsung one, manufactured in 2005.
I was quite surprised as well, but after doing some research I had to learn that a lot of people who recently ordered their T61's were getting "old" screens.

Guess those displays were just at the bottom of their warehouses and got dug up for being built into the last T61's Lenovo ships before the new T series is getting on the road.

pianowizard · #3 Post by **pianowizard** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:53 am

Quagmyre wrote:LCD is a WSXGA+ 15.4'' Samsung one, manufactured in 2005.

That's surprising, because Lenovo didn't start making 15.4" WSXGA+ Thinkpads until late 2006. Either Lenovo bought old stocks from Samsung, or they used the screens they had bought earlier for their 3000 series laptops.

crazyeddie1 · #4 Post by **crazyeddie1** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:21 am

I bought a brand new x60s recently from lenovo outlet, it's screen is also made in 2005. I have done a comparison with my other laptop:

MBA brightness at 6 notches:

http://homepage.mac.com/crazyeddie1/.Pictures/img6.JPG
http://homepage.mac.com/crazyeddie1/.Pictures/img4.JPG
http://homepage.mac.com/crazyeddie1/.Pictures/img6.JPG

MBA at 12 notches (full brightness)

http://homepage.mac.com/crazyeddie1/.Pi ... image3.JPG
http://homepage.mac.com/crazyeddie1/.Pictures/image.JPG
http://homepage.mac.com/crazyeddie1/.Pictures/imag2.JPG

X60s starts to look good when I brighten the MBA

RaysMD · #5 Post by **RaysMD** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:08 am

I guess it's nothing to worry about. The screen quality is excellent. Very good horizontal viewing angles. Vertical no so good. BUT, it beats my X300.

what abou the bezel separation?

Quagmyre · #6 Post by **Quagmyre** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:31 am

pianowizard wrote:
Quagmyre wrote:LCD is a WSXGA+ 15.4'' Samsung one, manufactured in 2005.
That's surprising, because Lenovo didn't start making 15.4" WSXGA+ Thinkpads until late 2006. Either Lenovo bought old stocks from Samsung, or they used the screens they had bought earlier for their 3000 series laptops.

PC Wizard tells me the following about my T61p's screen:

General Information :
Manufacturer : LTN154P2-L05
Product ID : IBM2887
Manufacture : 2005
Video Input Type : Digital in 0.7/0.3v
Max. Horiz./Vert. Size : 33 cm / 21 cm
Monitor Size : 15 inches (estimated)
Aspect Ratio : 16:10
Gamma Factor : 2.2
DPMS Active-Off : No
DPMS Suspend : No
DPMS Standby : No
EDID version : 1.3

Features :
Maximum Resolution : 1680 x 1050 @ 60

Pascal_TTH · #7 Post by **Pascal_TTH** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:30 am

Lenovo like any laptop manufacturer buys panel to TFT manufacturer. They request size, resolution, contrast and brightess to fit with their specs. After, they shop from Samsung, LG/Philips, Chi Mei, TMD, or any other. They switch from one to an other according to prices and aviablity. They don't care when the panel was manufactured. Aslo, it can be manufacted and wait in the panel manufacturer stock. Panel maker did not produce all sizes and resolutions daily. They set facilities to make one kind, build a lot, thus switch to an other.

A Lenovo FRU panel is nothing more than a generic panel with some Lenovo stickers, PN and serial. Any regular 15.4" panel will fit into a T61p 15.4 widescreen including one's from manufacurer Lenovo never deal with.

A TFT panel is a standard hardware component. Data interface and inverter use a regular connector. Fixing holes positions are standardised.

http://www.tt-hardware.com/img/news5/news090608_2.jpg

PS : If you check your car engine, even if your car is brand new, you got parts manufactured years ago.

crazyeddie1 · #8 Post by **crazyeddie1** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:48 pm

Pascal_TTH wrote:They don't care when the panel was manufactured. Aslo, it can be manufacted and wait in the panel manufacturer stock. Panel maker did not produce all sizes and resolutions daily. They set facilities to make one kind, build a lot, thus switch to an other.

I think research in this area is regularly done like any other, 3 years ago LED Backlit wasn't as common as it is today in computers which will be soon forcing CCFL out of equation. I also think the manufacturers carry old monitors for warranty claims, and maybe some companies are taking advantage of cheaper price to more recent good quality screens.

For designers like me lcd quality is very important which I have not seen in my experience in the thinkpad. Also on a workstation model like t61p lenovo should offer glossy screen, some people maybe are scared of glossy screens but quality glossy screens do not look like mirrors, only mediocre do. Glossy screens are good for designing stuff since they make photo and video work look more richer in quality and believe me on it blacks are always blacks.

Quagmyre · #9 Post by **Quagmyre** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:19 pm

crazyeddie1 wrote:
Pascal_TTH wrote:They don't care when the panel was manufactured. Aslo, it can be manufacted and wait in the panel manufacturer stock. Panel maker did not produce all sizes and resolutions daily. They set facilities to make one kind, build a lot, thus switch to an other.
I think research in this area is regularly done like any other, 3 years ago LED Backlit wasn't as common as it is today in computers which will be soon forcing CCFL out of equation. I also think the manufacturers carry old monitors for warranty claims, and maybe some companies are taking advantage of cheaper price to more recent good quality screens.

For designers like me lcd quality is very important which I have not seen in my experience in the thinkpad. Also on a workstation model like t61p lenovo should offer glossy screen, some people maybe are scared of glossy screens but quality glossy screens do not look like mirrors, only mediocre do. Glossy screens are good for designing stuff since they make photo and video work look more richer in quality and believe me on it blacks are always blacks.

Well, people like me who are doing mainly text work might not be overenthusiastic about glossy screens.

Pascal_TTH · #10 Post by **Pascal_TTH** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:37 pm

I also do not whant those kind of screen. My T61p comes with the *famous$ Samsung panel. I have never see a so poor panel and due to my job, I handle a lot of laptops. So, I order a LG/Philips panel for a nice price. Brand new, but gloss ! Danm, I forget to ask before order... To tell the true, I even did not know 15.4 WUXGA gloss panels do exist. Everything was fine (really nice colore, brightness) except that those screen reflects everything and have very poor viewing angle. I can't work with it, too gloss.
I order an other LG/Philips mat and now, it's fine. Comparing with the gloss one, constrast is lower are colors seems a bit washed out but in most case, I got nearly the same colore rendering than my Dell 2407WFP with is calibrate.

Laptop manufacturer unfortunately did not care much about the panels. They can only buy what TFT manufacturers offer. And since IPS is dead, we will never get as good panel as Flexview. LED is only a different kind of back light. Panel is still a 6 bits per color channel panel while IPS was using a 8 bits.

Nice looking colors does not mean right colors.

crazyeddie1 · #11 Post by **crazyeddie1** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:09 pm

Quagmyre wrote: Well, people like me who are doing mainly text work might not be overenthusiastic about glossy screens.

They can give you options like Apple does on MBP.

qviri · #12 Post by **qviri** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 4:55 pm

crazyeddie1 wrote:For designers like me lcd quality is very important which I have not seen in my experience in the thinkpad.

With the removal of IPS option, Lenovo has basically abandoned the market for designers who need good screens and can't go with an external monitor. While I'm not particularly happy about this turn of events, complaining about lack of good screens in current Thinkpads is like complaining about lack of recovery functionality or fingerprint readers on Macs: different market.

Glossy screens are good for designing stuff since they make photo and video work look more richer in quality and believe me on it blacks are always blacks.

I was under the impression designers were looking for true colour, not rich colour.

Troels · #13 Post by **Troels** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:26 pm

Pascal_TTH wrote: A Lenovo FRU panel is nothing more than a generic panel with some Lenovo stickers, PN and serial. Any regular 15.4" panel will fit into a T61p 15.4 widescreen including one's from manufacurer Lenovo never deal with.

That isn't completely true. For BOE-Hydis two eeproms are installed on the board, while the normal versions has one single eeprom.
Furthermore, the EDID details must match a certain manufacturer string correctly, or else the LCD will be blacklisted upon bootup, and you'll get colored bars.
"Compatible" LCDs on Ebay are just any LCD with the correct resolution, and a reprogrammed EEPROM with a stolen EDID from a proper OEM LCD in the corresponding thinkpad it is compatible with.

Pascal_TTH wrote: LED is only a different kind of back light. Panel is still a 6 bits per color channel panel while IPS was using a 8 bits.

Unfortunately, the flexviews are 6 bits only. I spoke with a manufacturer about this, and he told me the reasons were (without getting into detail, which is why i hope it is ok to post here): power consumption is very limited and also timing issues over the 2xLVDS, especially at these high resolutions we like.
But i agree, while LED could potentially result in a higher color gamut, this will be of no use since banding will be even more apparent when the 6 bit LUT values are spread across a larger color spectrum.
So that was one big sales argument dropping to the floor before it even got started.
CCFL can be made right - especially as it is seen with the flexviews, mostly for Boe-Hydis though. Samsung and LG have shown on their WS panels how not to do their best and instead tout LED as the future.

Pascal_TTH · #14 Post by **Pascal_TTH** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:57 pm

Troels wrote: That isn't completely true. For BOE-Hydis two eeproms are installed on the board, while the normal versions has one single eeprom.
Furthermore, the EDID details must match a certain manufacturer string correctly, or else the LCD will be blacklisted upon bootup, and you'll get colored bars.
"Compatible" LCDs on Ebay are just any LCD with the correct resolution, and a reprogrammed EEPROM with a stolen EDID from a proper OEM LCD in the corresponding thinkpad it is compatible with.

Because the Samsung panel from my T61p was too crappy, I order a LG/Philips WUXGA panel in Germany. Unfortunatly, it was gloss. I still install it. It works. I buy a brand new generic LG/Philips mat, I swap a second time, it works fine. So, I don't really understand what you are talking about. My panel is a LG/Philips LP154WU1. According to fixation bracket, it should be for a Dell or an Acer. On the back of the panel, it's writtent LG/Philips LP154WU1. If I look with Everest or PC Wizard, it tells about : monitor LPLF200. I really don't care about this. With the Lenovo Samsung panel, it tells about :
Lenovo LTN154U2-L05 (don't have it with generic)
LEN4055

http://www.entechtaiwan.com/lib/softmccs.shtm
softMCCS allow to change a lot of EPROM settings. I don't have time to spend, but I'am sure I can set a Lenovo name and/change most data in the generic EPROM to make it a *true Lenovo looking panel*.

Read this file about MB and MBP :
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=207751
Apple users install WUXGA panels from Dell, Lenovo or generic panel in they MacBook. Also, a lot of PC laptop users switch their panel to have an other resolution. If you make some research, you will find hunderds of topics about panel swap. So it looks most panel can be used in any other laptop.

This data show that TFT panel are standardised :
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/2473 ... 154ci5.jpg

PS : I don't speak english well so I'am not sure what I type is fine in english (or in good english)

Troels · #15 Post by **Troels** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:17 pm

Hmm, i don't know the T61/p very well at all i must admit - but contrary to what i expected to see from Lenovo, it is indeed great news if you can swap the screens like that. Wonderful

Looks like the SoftMCCS can't change any of the settings here since it reports that DDC is not supported. Funny that it does connect via an I2c bus though normally when i reflash the eeprom. Does it report the same for you?

I have tried swapping in an SXGA+, UXGA from a T42 and T42p and a IAQX10S from an R50p and all three displayed vertical bars and no boot. Reflashing the LCDs with the original EDID from the supplied LCD made all of the LCDs work fine, albeit they all tried to operate at UXGA, which didn't work as well on the SXGA+ (cutoffs exceeding pizels).

Yes i know about the SPWG type LCDs, and i realize that people swap out LCDs on many laptops, but whoelse other than Lenovo and HP are having BIOS whitelists for everything? That's always the two brands i saw mentioned.

Pascal_TTH · #16 Post by **Pascal_TTH** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:31 pm

Ok, I now understang what you speak about. It seems T42 and T43 were lock to only use IBM parts : hdd, wifi card and even panel. Since T60, they can run any generic hardware without IBM/Lenovo tag. I remember some one makes incerdible panel swap with T4x models. It was on the T4x part of the board.

I don't use SoftMCCS with the T61p. I use it to correct sharpness for my Dell 2408WFP : too sharp at 50, not sharp enough at 25. And a step of 25 ! I use an offset to get 37. I found this hack on a forum. I'am not very common with this software. But it looks powerfull.

I was surprised to found the biggest topic about panel swap in an Apple board. And also surprided that Apple did not use tag for his parts. To tell the true, I think it costs too much to tag part and develop checking in BIOS. My first T40p costs about 5000 € and now you can get a T61p for 1650 €...

Troels · #17 Post by **Troels** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 7:54 pm

The original UXGA T60p panel also worked fine in the T42. The T60/p seems to be pretty "evil" when it comes to trying non-Lenovo certified parts.

You are probably very right about tagging the LCDs, and the custom edids, it seems like it's only purpose is getting people to buy original replacemend lcds from the lenovo replacement stores.
The proportion of people doing this outside warranty might be very low compared to buying a new laptop altogether.

From €5000 to €1650 is just extreme. Before Lenovo, the IBM divisions made great profits in Europe, but at least here the IBM and Lenovo divisions are seperate and don't cooperate much. So i don't think their profits are as high under Lenovo at least.

Quagmyre · #18 Post by **Quagmyre** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:35 am

Pascal_TTH wrote:I also do not whant those kind of screen. My T61p comes with the *famous$ Samsung panel. I have never see a so poor panel and due to my job, I handle a lot of laptops. So, I order a LG/Philips panel for a nice price. Brand new, but gloss ! Danm, I forget to ask before order... To tell the true, I even did not know 15.4 WUXGA gloss panels do exist. Everything was fine (really nice colore, brightness) except that those screen reflects everything and have very poor viewing angle. I can't work with it, too gloss.
I order an other LG/Philips mat and now, it's fine. Comparing with the gloss one, constrast is lower are colors seems a bit washed out but in most case, I got nearly the same colore rendering than my Dell 2407WFP with is calibrate.

Laptop manufacturer unfortunately did not care much about the panels. They can only buy what TFT manufacturers offer. And since IPS is dead, we will never get as good panel as Flexview. LED is only a different kind of back light. Panel is still a 6 bits per color channel panel while IPS was using a 8 bits.

Nice looking colors does not mean right colors.

Did you swap LCD panels yourself?
Doesn't that void the warranty?

Pascal_TTH · #19 Post by **Pascal_TTH** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:06 am

Quagmyre wrote:Did you swap LCD panels yourself?
Doesn't that void the warranty?

- Yes. I work in laptops for years and can dismantle nearly any laptop.
- Should be yes but I keep the old panel and can replace it. It won't be noticiable because there are any sealed part or glued screw. So, no...

crazyeddie1 · #20 Post by **crazyeddie1** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:56 pm

qviri wrote:While I'm not particularly happy about this turn of events, complaining about lack of good screens in current Thinkpads is like complaining about lack of recovery functionality or fingerprint readers on Macs: different market.

One can live without fingerprint reader and recovery function but cannot without a monitor in a computer. Yes comparing PC to Mac is a poor idea but just fyi macs do have recovery function it is called "Time Machine"

I was under the impression designers were looking for true colour, not rich colour.

Sorry for my poor choice of words, good glossy screens project colors with more accuracy, you can go to any apple store and see anti glare and glossy screens in person, you will find noticeable difference between them.

@Pascal my man, why would you waste your own money and not demand the company to put better screen on your unit, they will never listen users like you if you start giving them leeway. And I do know about IPS technology my cinema display has it.

qviri · #21 Post by **qviri** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:31 pm

crazyeddie1 wrote:One can live without fingerprint reader and recovery function but cannot without a monitor in a computer.

Thinkpads do give you a screen. You can live without a glossy screen.

Pascal_TTH · #22 Post by **Pascal_TTH** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:53 pm

@Pascal my man, why would you waste your own money and...

- My T60p have 3 years warranty but not on site and I got to work with it.
- SAV don't take care as I when working on laptop. On time, a unit comes with scratch on the lid. I don't want to.
- How may time do I have to send it to have the LG/Philips panel ?
- Will they change a working panel because I don't like it ?
- I like to learn by myself.

I have an other use for the Samsung panel so money is not really wasted.

But your right, I should have to complain at Lenovo. Now it's done and I enjoy my T61p...

crazyeddie1 · #23 Post by **crazyeddie1** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:55 am

qviri wrote:
crazyeddie1 wrote:One can live without fingerprint reader and recovery function but cannot without a monitor in a computer.
Thinkpads do give you a screen. You can live without a glossy screen.

I have been quite sloppy lately, I meant to say good screen in a computer.

crashnburn · #24 Post by **crashnburn** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:44 am

I have a Dec 2007 T61 manufacture with an LCD that shows 2005 in PC Wizard.

Should I be concerned? 14" T61p LCD produced in 2005

Should I be concerned? 14" T61p LCD produced in 2005

I am in the same boat

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