Seagate Momentus & Thinkpad Active Protection

[hellosailor]

I bit the bullet, opted for the Seagate 320GB 7200rpm drive with no one able to say how or if that would work with the Lenovo Thinkpad Active Protection system or not. (It has it's own protection system built in.)

Just confirmed tonight, the TAPS will recognize what the drive is doing. Swinging the laptop while video is playing will halt the video--as normal--and still generates the normal TAPS message that the drive has been stopped.

So, apparently it will work, even if Seagate and Lenono [sic] have no idea about that.

[Marin85]

So, apparently it will work, even if Seagate and Lenono [sic] have no idea about that.

Why would they have no idea about that? ThinkPads have their own built-in motion sensor, so that the user can upgrade to whatever hard drive he wants to. And the new Seagate Momentus HDs also have their built-in motion sensor, so that one can put them in whatever laptop he wants to (since not every laptop can be a ThinkPad ).So, all in all everything fits, it´s rather (-)+(-)=(-) than (-)x(-)=(+)

Marin

[RonS]

You can disabe and even uninstall TAPS and the same thing will happen. The video will stop while you move the Thinkpad because the motion sensor it built into the Seagate drive. Try it!

[hellosailor]

Ron, the video stops when the drive parks--but that only tells you the drive's system is working, it doesn't tell you if TAPS (which in theory has adjustable settings, unlike the fixed ones in the drive) is working.

Marin-
Seagate has no idea if their drive's firmware integrates with the Lenono software, because they don't test Lenono computers. Similarly, Lenono doesn't test Seagate drives because they are an IBM-assignee, and they used a sole-source supplier of hard drives: Hitachi, who are also the IBM "DeathStar" drive technology assignee. Lenono may be required to use Hitachi, or they may receive a substantial discount for using them, because both are "sons of IBM".

From what I'm repeatedly told, the Thinkpads DO NOT have ny motion sensor in them, the sensor is IN THE DRIVE if the drive is so equipped. If you think there is an accelerometer in the computer itself--please, tell me where it is.

[Marin85]

From what I'm repeatedly told, the Thinkpads DO NOT have ny motion sensor in them, the sensor is IN THE DRIVE if the drive is so equipped. If you think there is an accelerometer in the computer itself--please, tell me where it is.

This is a good question indeed and it changes things a lot This can be tested with some older laptop drives that possibly don´t have any built-in accelerometer. How about older WD, Samsung or Toshiba drives? I had a 120 GB Toshiba MK1234GSX drive in my z61p and at the beginning I even thought that it was somewhat buggy as anything I was doing was stopping when moving the laptop. Later I found out that this was due to the Active Protection System set to high sensitivity.

[basketb]

...
Similarly, Lenono doesn't test Seagate drives because they are an IBM-assignee, and they used a sole-source supplier of hard drives: Hitachi, who are also the IBM "DeathStar" drive technology assignee. Lenono may be required to use Hitachi, or they may receive a substantial discount for using them, because both are "sons of IBM".

I have not read such nonsense in a long time. What makes you say that Lenovo only uses Hitachi drives in Thinkpads? Nor is Hitachi in any way a "son of IBM" (and neither is Lenovo, for that matter). What you are probably referring to is HGST and even in that one IBM does no longer have a big stake.

From what I'm repeatedly told, the Thinkpads DO NOT have ny motion sensor in them, the sensor is IN THE DRIVE if the drive is so equipped. If you think there is an accelerometer in the computer itself--please, tell me where it is.

Well, you've been told wrong. Read here:
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... migr-53167

[Marin85]

Well, you've been told wrong. Read here:
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... migr-53167

Hm, I´ve read that, too. So, actually, no matter what drive is put into the ThinkPad, it will be protected by Lenovo Active Protection System, which is cool since people like me sometimes use quite old HDDs in their relative new machines for reasons inexplicable here

Cheers

Marin

[hellosailor]

Maybe it is nonsense, but Lenono support told me directly that the TAPS required the OEM drives.

And the referenced web article--from 2003 and referring to twpo specific models only--says that TAPS can be tested uing PC-Doctor under "Other Devices". PCD5 shows no listing for an accelerometer device in my computer.

"Nonsense" would be building the accelerometer in the laptop--after hard drives have become compact enough to have one onboard. Duplicate parts only raise prices! So all you've proved is that two five-year-old systems did not have an accelerometer on their drives, they needed a separate one onboard.

As for Hitachi and IBM having no relationship, IBM very definitely sold off their drive manufacturing business to Hitachi back when the DeskStar was a really hot drive. (What I call the "DeathStar"). Part of the sell-off terms were that Hitach would continue to manufacture and supply them to IBM--at better terms than they charged anyone else. That agreement would typically continue with whoever IBM sold off their computer product lines to, i.e. Lenono.

You think there's an accelerometer on the T61 motherboard? OK, I'm from Missouri. Show me. It should be easy enough to spot.

The fact that the 2003 system only worked with the drive in the primary bay, indicates that the system was not using the internal sensor in a drive, and had no communications path to it. That was PATA days, this is SATA, all the more reason to have different ways to monitor the drive, too.

Interestingly--there are a couple of web pages referencing hacking the accelerometer that's in some Tpad models, and sounding like it is in the laptop not the drive. But they also reference a couple of driver files (i.e. shock*.sys) that are used to support that hardware--and I've got no sign of those in my system.

[basketb]

So taking your logic, how would the Thinkpad recognize that it is shaken if it didn't have any hardware sensors built-in? Oh, it asks the hard disk, there is a secret handshake between the Thinkpad and the hard disk, I see. But my hard disk doesn't have a shock sensor built in. Now what? Yet the "Thinkvantage Active Protection System" still works. I don't know how many more links one needs to provide (and I'm sure you are able to use google yourself), but here's another one: http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Active_Protection_System

...but Lenono support told me directly that the TAPS required the OEM drives.

They will also tell you that only the HDs they sell are supported and guaranteed to work in the Thinkpad (no matter whether you want to use TAPS or not), even though any 9.5 mm SATA drive will do for the T6x.

IBM very definitely sold off their drive manufacturing business to Hitachi...

Not quite correct. IBM and Hitachi formed a joined venture five years ago (HGST). IBM has since divested the majority of its stake in that joint venture. Read more about it here.

Part of the sell-off terms were that Hitach would continue to manufacture and supply them to IBM--at better terms than they charged anyone else.

And you know this because you were intimately involved in these negotiations five/six years ago?

But they also reference a couple of driver files (i.e. shock*.sys) that are used to support that hardware--and I've got no sign of those in my system.

OK, so it wouldn't be possible that they are now named differently?

[RonS]

Modern T6x Thinkpads definitely have a built-in motion sensor. You can even rig them up to some games and use the Thinkpad as a large wii-long control. See this:

http://lenovoblogs.com/insidethebox/?p=55

I've done it - it works great!

[mikeshoup]

The Thinkpad APS sensor is built into the motherboard on the laptop.

This can be proven by installing a non-OEM hard drive, such as I have, one that has no built in APS, and you'll the APS icon in the taskbar is still totally capable of detecting tilt and such.

It is NOT builtin to the OEM hitachi hard drives.

[DarkScythe]

I believe the Thinkpad Active Protection System's inner workings were explored previously in this Hitachi Harddisk thread.

From Quagmyre's in-depth research, I had concluded this:

[...] Anyway, so it seems we need 3 things to fully enable HD-APS here.. The chip on the mobo, the HD with Ramp Load/Unload technology, AND the firmware to Unload heads without flushing drive cache [...]

I'm pretty sure at least the T60's and newer should have the onboard sensor already, but I have no idea how that conflicts with the Seagate's own built-in sensor. I suppose the built-in one would have a higher priority and over-ride any commands sent by the Thinkpad, but I could be wrong (only speculating here.)

The biggest thing was the firmware issue, but that may not be required, as Quagmyre demonstrates later in that thread a way to query the hard drive to see if it has those specific options enabled in the drive's original firmware. I'm not sure if simply having the icon react (which only indicates that the chip is working) and a video stop definitively means that APS works or not, as there's that issue with the drive heads being parked before or after flushing the drive cache.

[hellosailor]

You raise a good point, there is plenty of room for conflicts at the software command level. Especially, from the little I understand of it, as the Seagate ramps the heads off the platters as a matter of course while idle--not just when a shock is detected.

I also found a utility online that allows you to see the Tpad accelerometer's output in semi-real time. Run the applet, and as you tilt the computer 9even slowly) it generates different numbers reflecting the current x/y tilts in degrees. Which, incidentally, are uncalibrated so a "flat" Tpad may show a 20d/25d tilt in both axes. Apparently calbration is left as a minor software exercise, too.