Moving the Screen Causes KB Bezel to Shift, Here's Why[PICS]

[bmwman91]

So, I just got my t60p back from Lenovo's R&R center with a nice new IPS screen. However, one thing that had been bugging me hadn't been fixed...when you move the screen, the chassis/hinge seemed loose, and the keyboard bezel moved with it. So, being that the warranty is up in a month or so anyway, and me being a DIY type, I took it apart.

PIC 1 - Here is a familiar sight (to some)...the guts of the t60p. I thought these had titanium frames in them or something...it looked & felt like fiber-reinforced plastic to me. The left hinge was the one that seemed odd.
http://www.e30tuner.com/other/t60pframe ... AME_01.jpg

PIC 2 - Looking a little more closely, I saw that the hinge is held by one screw through the body of the machine (behind it) and one screw in the FRP cage thing.
http://www.e30tuner.com/other/t60pframe ... AME_02.jpg

PIC 3 - When I moved the screen, the hinge definitely was moving, as well as the cage part it was attached to. So, a little bit of closer inspection revealed that the cage was, in fact, broken. This is with the screen sitting, without me pushing on it at all.
http://www.e30tuner.com/other/t60pframe ... AME_03.jpg

PIC 4 - Here you can see the gap widen as I move the screen. This is a piss poor design in my opinion. Using a cross section that small to handle the moments generated by moving the stiff screen is lousy. I am fairly certain that, if I were to let this slide for long, the chassis itself would eventually fail, and possibly the motherboard or cooling system if things were flexing too much & going where they shouldn't.
http://www.e30tuner.com/other/t60pframe ... AME_04.jpg

Now, I have warranty coverage until March 19, 2009. However, I have NO faith in this design, so a new cage would probably just break again. The laptop has already been to the R&R center twice in the last 3 weeks, and I don't want to send it again. I prefer a more permanent solution. This will involve a custom aluminum bracket, some tiny screws & some epoxy. I will keep you all posted on my overkill-fix.

Anyone else have a busted hinge bracket?

(oh and if you are unable to view the images in the links, which I have tested, it is your ISP blocking my hosting service. For some reason, my host has issues and I am working on this with them....sorry for any inconvenience)

[richk]

The hinge is screwed to the MAGNESIUM frame with one screw from above and one from below. (the one next to the one you removed to take off the keyboard bezel. If the frame is broken, IBM's position is that the machine was dropped. If you don't have accidental damage warranty, it isn't covered. The next thing that brakes if it is used with the frame bromen is the lower case, which will crack next to the hinge.I do know that the frame will break at that point if it is dropped. The point over the fan exhaust is the thin point. I have been told that the frame can crack from normal use, but I haven't personally seen that.

[bmwman91]

The hinge is screwed to the MAGNESIUM frame with one screw from above and one from below. (the one next to the one you removed to take off the keyboard bezel. If the frame is broken, IBM's position is that the machine was dropped. If you don't have accidental damage warranty, it isn't covered. The next thing that brakes if it is used with the frame bromen is the lower case, which will crack next to the hinge.I do know that the frame will break at that point if it is dropped. The point over the fan exhaust is the thin point. I have been told that the frame can crack from normal use, but I haven't personally seen that.

Aaah, yeah Magnesium that makes sense, I was thinking that the "plastic" felt funny.

Well, I have no idea how it broke since this was an eBAY laptop. The unit just has the EasyServ warranty on it. It looks like I will be repairing it myself. Time to pull it completely apart & hope that I don't lose any screws! It will be nice to thoroughly clean it up. From the looks of it, I won't have to pull the heat sink assembly to get the cage out (or does it go under the motherboard as well?)...from what I can see of it, the thing uses thick thermal gap pads, which would be tricky to replace. I was hoping that I would be able to use some G751 thermal grease in place of whatever was on there, but that's not a good option if there are gap pads.

[Troels]

Anyone else have a busted hinge bracket?

I'll check tommow, in daylight conditions.
I suspect i might have some of a problem here too.
If you hold you index finger behind the lower part of the left hinge, on the back where the base starts, i feel that it moves slightly when i move the lid forward or backward.

[richk]

You need to take it ALL apart. The frame goes all around the motherboard. The MB screws in from the bottom. The pads over the GPU are reusable, but the CPU needs thermal grease. Th is a pain to get the frame out of the case if you haven't done it before. Also, loosen the screws for securing external VGA cable to port, before removing the MB from the frame.

[bmwman91]

OK, pics to come tomorrow.....

I pulled the cage/mobo form the plastic case. It was not too hard...although I will need to look at the TSM tomorrow to see which screw goes where (I cannot remember, and I wasted an hour or 2 messing with them). I also came up with a...custom...solution to the broken cage. It involves the strongest epoxy I was able to find at the hardware store, sheetmetal shears, some thin anti-corrosion plated-steel sheet & sweat. It is probably for the best that I was unable to remember which screws went where...that gives the epoxy time to cure without any forces applied by the cage being torqued down. I happen to think it came out about as clean as one could hope for while still being a little over-the-top with the epoxy coverage. After it sat past its rated "handling" time, I test-fitted it in the plastic case and nothing was interfering anywhere.

I am glad to hear that the thermal gap pads are reusable. The lab I did this in (sssssh...I was at work haha) happens to be an electronics rework lab with all the necessary provisions for reworking computer-like devices with heat sinks & rigorous thermal demands. The CPU die was thoroughly cleaned, as well as that part of the heat sink, and some nice fresh G751 paste was applied. The grease that WAS on there looked sort of sad...voids in its bond-line & all around not very robust. The G751 should be a little better. I also applied a VERY thin layer to the GPU & other thing under the HS (northbridge?) to fill any gaps that could be in the pad.

[jimmy274]

I've just realized that I have a pretty similar problem to your's - for some time now, my lower left corner of the laptop hangs in the air. This is sometimes a lot, sometimes it's not, but when I started pulling the screen back and forth, I saw that the keyboard bezel moves as well. I applied some regular junk super glue to it yesterday hoping that it'll hold with no success (how am I supposed to know that super glue does not hold magnesium that good), so today I'm after Bison Epoxy Metal adhesive, which is supposed to be good. I'm not that good in English to understand what those other things that you're using are (sheetmetal shears, steel sheet & sweat), but I'm hoping that I'll pretty much understand from the pics that you upload.
I'm waiting for the pics, and then I'm turning apart this baby (that will probably be like 7-8th time that I'm doing it)...

[yak]

From my experience, super glue does not hold anything that has forces applied to it. This may be why it fails, not the fact that you're gluing magnesium.

I would use some strong two components, 24h drying glue.

[jimmy274]

Indeed - the only downside being that I'll have to make 24h without my precious companion, which kinda leads me to the SF area Well, I guess some things have to be done the hard way...

[bmwman91]

OK, busy day at work...pics to come at some point.

I added one more piece for reinforcement, although I am not sure how effective it will be. There were actually 2 cracks in the case, but only one was able to be filled with epoxy. I am debating machining a bracket from aluminum, or maybe making a bigger, more complex bracket from the steel sheet. I dunno, this looks like it might just have to be replaced entirely someday...which will not be cheap I am sure.

Oh well, it is all back together now, and I tossed in 4GB of DDR2-667 RAM while it was open ($29.99 at Fry's (with $10 rebate)).

[jimmy274]

pix, pix, pix! Can't wait - I've just bought Epoxy Metal, and I should search my parts for some steel/aluminum scrap. I do have a lot of parts from an old R51, and even some magnesium from a T40. Nevertheless, the biggest problem are going to be holders/clamps, since I don't even have the idea what will I use there - maybe some duct tape .

[richk]

Knowing what it looks like, I REALLY don't think you are going to be able to fix the frame. There is a lot of stress and the break normally occurs at a place where there is a small surface to glue.

[yak]

I'm not sure about Epoxy Metal but I would use some kind of a glue that turns solid when dry so that I could not only apply it to the broken surface but stiffen the frame at the same time by putting glue on the sides too so that the frame is thicker in this place. Of course one has to make sure that it's not too thick and the notebook can be put together again.

[jimmy274]

I know this might be a long shot, but... have you guys considered using stainless steel strings for securing the cage. I'm asking because upper surface that's supposed to be glued is small and the only thing I can think of is gluing one part of the string on the upper side, and one on the lower.

[bmwman91]

OK, here are the shots of the (somewhat hokey) fix. I am not really very happy with it as there is still a lot of flex in the small member connecting the hinge to the main portion of the cage. I am pretty sure that this WILL break again. For the record, this is NOT super glue. This is 3500PSI 2-part epoxy that cures translucent. A REAL fix would be one of 2 things:
1) New cage
2) A larger, 1-piece bracket that is cut & folded from sheet metal that will cradle the support member, and make contact with as many surfaces as possible.

Anyway, here are pics.

I prepped the side facing the VGA connector by roughing it up & removing the paint. The first bracket has been installed on the other side already.
http://www.e30tuner.com/other/t60pframe ... AME_05.jpg

Here is my messy attempt at putting something over the 2 cracks on this side. Note that there is virtually ZERO clearance on the side that faces outward...if you even have excess glue there, the plastic base cover will not fit properly.
http://www.e30tuner.com/other/t60pframe ... AME_06.jpg

Here is the Z-bracket I fashioned with some needle-nosed pliers. This is where all the stress is going through.
http://www.e30tuner.com/other/t60pframe ... AME_07.jpg

Since there is clearance on top, I tried to add another piece there. All that did was look ugly, though.
http://www.e30tuner.com/other/t60pframe ... AME_08.jpg


Sorry folks, there probably is no really good DIY fix for this. I just hope to hell that it does not break again any time soon. I DO have access to a pretty good machine shop usually, so perhaps I will try to make something a little more substantial. How much can one find a junker T60p for / just the used cage?

[Troels]

Well, I remember checking the parts service here some time ago about that magnesium structure frame. Just checked again now. It has FRU no. 41V9988, and converted, it costs $38 including 25% VAT, excluding shipping. So around $31... I'd imagine the parts service department charges about the same in the US

Nice job by the way.
Hmm, just a thought - is welding with magnesium possible? That might be the ultimate cure if it happens again.

[yak]

Nice pics. You have to fix the link to the last one thou. You copy&pasted the previous one and forgot to change the pic number

[jimmy274]

Well, seems tough enough to me! I have an update on my case - seems that super glue lasted (the first time I put it) - I have no idea how long will it last, but I just spent an hour or so pulling the d**n thing, trying to flex it etc, and it holds fine (I wanted to replace super glue with epoxy, but I just couldn't break it again). Also, the lower left leg is not standing in the air anymore (once I opened up the laptop, I've noticed that the previous owner did some bashing himself and put the wrong screws on a few places - the screws were giving the cage tension that deformed it, thus my lower left corner was hanging in the air).
Anyway, once it breaks again, I'll do exactly what you did, since there indeed is a lot of clearance on the top - I haven't counted on that.

[bmwman91]

Well, I remember checking the parts service here some time ago about that magnesium structure frame. Just checked again now. It has FRU no. 41V9988, and converted, it costs $38 including 25% VAT, excluding shipping. So around $31... I'd imagine the parts service department charges about the same in the US

Nice job by the way.
Hmm, just a thought - is welding with magnesium possible? That might be the ultimate cure if it happens again.

Well heck, for ~$70US, I suppose that is not to bad. I'll do that if/when this breaks.

I have thought about welding it since I have access to a MIG & TIG welding units back at my parents' house. I thought about paying them a visit to (yet again) make a mess in their garage, but I really doubt that Magnesium welds at all. If anything, I bet it will catch fire. Generally, welding anything that has been cast from metal does not work really well. That's why I like epoxy...it will chemically bond with whatever it is applied to. The only trick is getting it IN the crack to bond there, and there was a smaller crack that was not on a movable member so I could not fill it.

[bmwman91]

Nice pics. You have to fix the link to the last one thou. You copy&pasted the previous one and forgot to change the pic number

Thanks for the heads-up. Link fixed!

[bmwman91]

Well, seems tough enough to me! I have an update on my case - seems that super glue lasted (the first time I put it) - I have no idea how long will it last, but I just spent an hour or so pulling the d**n thing, trying to flex it etc, and it holds fine (I wanted to replace super glue with epoxy, but I just couldn't break it again). Also, the lower left leg is not standing in the air anymore (once I opened up the laptop, I've noticed that the previous owner did some bashing himself and put the wrong screws on a few places - the screws were giving the cage tension that deformed it, thus my lower left corner was hanging in the air).
Anyway, once it breaks again, I'll do exactly what you did, since there indeed is a lot of clearance on the top - I haven't counted on that.

I am glad to hear that the glue has worked for you. Hopefully it will hold for a long time. If I decide to machine a more permanent solution form billet aluminum (I am tempted...) I will post up the project details. That will probably involve some M1 screws and epoxy.

For the top, you can put the brace further along the arm. I was hesitant to put much of anything near the little cut-out where the plastic base's clip goes, as long as you make a little cut-out in the brace you are good. The epoxy I used had a 3 minute working time, and aver maybe 5 minutes I was using a modeling/razor knife to cut the excess epoxy off. It worked pretty well.

[jimmy274]

I am glad to hear that the glue has worked for you. Hopefully it will hold for a long time. If I decide to machine a more permanent solution form billet aluminum (I am tempted...) I will post up the project details. That will probably involve some M1 screws and epoxy.

For the top, you can put the brace further along the arm. I was hesitant to put much of anything near the little cut-out where the plastic base's clip goes, as long as you make a little cut-out in the brace you are good. The epoxy I used had a 3 minute working time, and aver maybe 5 minutes I was using a modeling/razor knife to cut the excess epoxy off. It worked pretty well.

You know, I don't really know about magnesium, but what I do know is that I had seen quite a few Gibson Les Pauls with broken heads in my time. This is also usually fixed by epoxy, and since we're talking about mahogany - it's pretty darn hard to glue it back, since mahogany usually bursts (it looks as if it was made of fibres, not wood), BUT once you get a good craftsman and once he applies epoxy on it - it will NEVER break on the same place again, that's how much tougher epoxy is than mahogany. Oh, forgot to mention - also the same problem here on guitars - very, very tiny surface to glue compared to what string tension it must hold, so I guess you're fine with your solution.
Once again, you're the mechanics engineer, myself being the electrical can only tell you what's wrong with the sw/hw Also if you've made that oil pump work again, I'm pretty certain that this is a walk in the park for you...

[bmwman91]

You know, I don't really know about magnesium, but what I do know is that I had seen quite a few Gibson Les Pauls with broken heads in my time. This is also usually fixed by epoxy, and since we're talking about mahogany - it's pretty darn hard to glue it back, since mahogany usually bursts (it looks as if it was made of fibres, not wood), BUT once you get a good craftsman and once he applies epoxy on it - it will NEVER break on the same place again, that's how much tougher epoxy is than mahogany. Oh, forgot to mention - also the same problem here on guitars - very, very tiny surface to glue compared to what string tension it must hold, so I guess you're fine with your solution.
Once again, you're the mechanics engineer, myself being the electrical can only tell you what's wrong with the sw/hw Also if you've made that oil pump work again, I'm pretty certain that this is a walk in the park for you...

Well, that is good to know. You are probably on to something when you mention it not breaking (in the same place) again. I am fairly certain that I may be seeing a failure at the tip of the epoxied brace where there is now a nice big stress concentration. Oh well, I guess I will have to come up with something completely over-the-top!

As for the oil-pump explosion story...the fix was not too terribly hard, actually. I have torn that part of the motor down on a couple of occasions (on both of my old 318iS cars). The tricky part was getting the new timing case in without pulling the cylinder head...but that thing was big & able to be grabbed with 2 hands! This laptop cage...so tiny!

[ajkula66]

jimmy274 wrote:

You know, I don't really know about magnesium, but what I do know is that I had seen quite a few Gibson Les Pauls with broken heads in my time. This is also usually fixed by epoxy, and since we're talking about mahogany - it's pretty darn hard to glue it back, since mahogany usually bursts (it looks as if it was made of fibres, not wood), BUT once you get a good craftsman and once he applies epoxy on it - it will NEVER break on the same place again, that's how much tougher epoxy is than mahogany

Completely OT, but fixing a broken headstock-on a Gibson no less-with epoxy is an absolutely barbaric approach, and no person performing repair in this manner should be considered an apprentice, let alone a craftsman...

[jimmy274]

Completely OT, but fixing a broken headstock-on a Gibson no less-with epoxy is an absolutely barbaric approach, and no person performing repair in this manner should be considered an apprentice, let alone a craftsman...

Yes George, you're right, but you've seem to forgotten that it's not an easy task to find or buy a new Les Paul here in Serbia - desperate people call for drastic measures. I'm sure that I have at least one more friend that would agree with you on the subject

Anyway, from OffT->OnT, super glue still seems to hold great - in fact, machine is sturdier than ever. When it breaks again, I'll glue it with epoxy. Oh, and one more thing about epoxy - I don't know about the epoxy bmwman is using, but bison metal epoxy is supposed to be applied in a thin layer over one of the surfaces and then, you need some crimps or a tape to hold it that way for couple of more hours, so I'm not sure about the excess - how it holds and stuff. I think the best way is to glue it in a thin layer, let it work at least 12 hours and then put the z-bracket over the top (again, thin layer) and then let that chill for 12 hours.
Or you can super glue it
The purchase of the new structure frame is somewhat useless, since you know that it'll break again on the same spot if you ever drop a laptop or accidentally hit it harder - I think a better way is to fix this and make it not to ever break again...

[bmwman91]

I agree, this calls for a better fix...a bracket that covers many surfaces, and is all one-piece. When I was in there again today modding the heat sink (dropped the GPU from 98C to 77C under full load), I inspected the cage repair. it is already coming loose again, and there is some flex in it due to the epoxy coming loose in some spots. I was sort of expecting this.

So...I guess I will take a stab at making a better, proper bracket. My gut feeling is that I will wind up buying a new cage at some point, though.

[LegendaryKA8]

Interesting thread.... hopefully the one I've got coming in isn't going to have or develop this problem anytime soon, but you never know.

One thought I have was that you might need to get a new cage, but I wonder if this area could be somehow reinforced when you do so? It's probably neigh near impossible to fix when broken, but the added reinforcement might help prevent or outright eliminate the breakage issue.

I did try to repair a T40's magnesium cage(battery area) a while ago using JB Weld... and unfortunately that didn't really help any.

[yak]

This also happened to my T60 two days ago. It wasn't dropped but it might have been slammed couple of times a bit harder by my 2 yr old nephew . After that, the left hinge and the left corner of the keyboard bezel would move slightly when the lid was moved. It would also make cracking noises.

I would use epoxy but I only had super glue at hand so I went with that. Trying to glue the crack in the frame didn't go that well, it would come off as soon as I moved the lid. I ended up gluing a small plastic block next to the crack, in the corner. It seems to hold thanks to the relatively big gluing surfaces of the block. The super glue seems to handle the forces spread over these surfaces. We'll see for how long (knocks on wood).

[bmwman91]

Just an update...the glue didn't last too long. I eBay ordered a replacement frame for $75US. It was a somewhat involved job to swap it all, but in the end proved ot be uneventful. Now I just hope this is not endemic of the design or anything.

[yak]

Thanks for the update.

Yes, I opened it up yesterday to fix some creaking coming from the keyboard bezel and saw that my fix was already coming off. I took the plastic block off, made it fit better, cleaned everything and glued it again. This time I also added a thin aluminum strap on top to stiffen the whole thing some more. I'm going to get some epoxy to fix it properly the next time it comes off.

I think this is a design issue so I don't want a new frame.