T60 Replacing Fan - Thermal Grease (Pic warning)

[misfit]

Thanks for the kind words dragonknight. I was but making observations based on my own modification of GPU cooling of T60s and T43s.

Hopefully that noise was just an artifact of the Video Card Stability Check programme.

Perhaps rather than sanding the copper to make it thinner cutting it so that it's exactly the same size as the GPU might be the best option? I hear what you're saying about maximising contact patch with the cooler but, if it's bigger than the GPU there's always going to be the likelihood of it tilting. It's no good if it's making a large, good contact with the cooler if it's not contacting the GPU similarly.

If it's not as big then the difference in thickness / height of the shim compared to the NB shouldn't be such an issue. You might have to 'tweak' the cooler a little so that all surfaces are in complete contact but that's the way I'd go.

(It's also the way I *will* go next time I pull down my T60 [or T43p]. For some reason, when I was 'adjusting' the cooling before I didn't think to chop up one or more of the old hunks of copper heatsinks that are in my drawer from my O/Cing desktop days, before heatpipe coolers were commonly available for desktops. I've got four all-copper 'sinks, with varying fin thickness, a veritable mother-load of shim material!)

Oh, I think that one corner of the GPU / daughterboard *was* 'trimmed' but I'm not sure that we're talking of the same thing as I didn't see what you were worried about in your pics.

Best of luck DK, and please let us know how you go with it. I for one intend to run a FlexView T60 for a long time yet. That's why I have a spare in the drawer! LOL, the one in storage is actually the better of the two, this one has the dreaded dust between LCD layers issue. More appear from time-to-time, I don't know *how* they're getting in there.

[dragonknight]

Well, first of all, sorry you guys for replying so late, I had a very busy Monday and Tuesday And second of all, thanks misfit and RealBlackStuff for all of your support.

So, after hours of using the machine without any other problems, I decided to let everything go on as normal and don't bother to try to solve the problem anymore. However, the noise has reduced dramatically (it's still appears sometimes), and I had been led to the conclusion that the "missing corner" is a damage caused by the pressure when shim got pressed down by the clip.

What I've learned from this, is to be more careful when working with my machine, and I'm saving my money for the 20th anniversary Thinkpad (if Lenovo releases it)

[serpico]

Just to report back:
I ended up using a small piece of 0.025" thickness copper (available at Lowes) just a little larger than the GPU itself. The sheet is thin enough that it can be cut with scissors, but you'll need to press it flat as it will tend to curl a little. I applied Artic Silver 5 to the GPU (after cleaning with alcohol) and to the side of the copper piece that would face the heatsink, and then placed the copper piece on the GPU.

The northbridge thermal pad was intact, so I opted to continue using that, and the CPU comes in direct contact (with thermal compound of course) with heatsink. Put everything back together and GPU temps are normal.

To those with failing fans, I would definitely recommend replacing ONLY the fan. It's only slightly more involved than replacing the fan and heatsink and considerably less expensive - ~$10 vs ~$50.

An update on the above post.

Seems the GPU is running pretty warm. I think the copper shim should have been thicker. I'm thinking about doubling up and using two 0.025" copper shims for a total thickness of 0.05". Would I need to solder them together, or can I just really on the pressure from the heatsink to hold them in place?

[misfit]

An update on the above post.

Seems the GPU is running pretty warm. I think the copper shim should have been thicker. I'm thinking about doubling up and using two 0.025" copper shims for a total thickness of 0.05". Would I need to solder them together, or can I just really on the pressure from the heatsink to hold them in place?

Thanks for reporting back. I'm going to delve into the guts of my T60s soon. All information is good. I used coins on top of the [bent] heatsink originally but am planning on re-visiting the situation.

Ideally you'd use a single piece of 0.05". However, if you're going to use two 0.025 shims then, yes, solder would be good as long as you're sure that the contact in the middle of the shims is good. If not solder you could make sure that they're *very* flat and 'stick' them together (with stiction) with the thinnest layer of AS5 you can get away with. Or you can get thermal epoxy from some of the computer cooling companies (I know Zalman used to make some) and glue them together with that.

Best of luck.

[serpico]

Thanks for reporting back. I'm going to delve into the guts of my T60s soon. All information is good. I used coins on top of the [bent] heatsink originally but am planning on re-visiting the situation.

Ideally you'd use a single piece of 0.05". However, if you're going to use two 0.025 shims then, yes, solder would be good as long as you're sure that the contact in the middle of the shims is good. If not solder you could make sure that they're *very* flat and 'stick' them together (with stiction) with the thinnest layer of AS5 you can get away with. Or you can get thermal epoxy from some of the computer cooling companies (I know Zalman used to make some) and glue them together with that.

Best of luck.

Would regular tin solder be ok?

I figure I can use a little Artic Silver between the shims and solder the edges of the shims.

[RealBlackStuff]

The heat from the soldering will most likely warp the shims, causing an air gap between them (or between shim/GPU).
You are better of just using AS5 between the 2 layers, then mount it on the GPU.
Use some Kapton tape to hold the shims in place (tape on motherboard, over GPU/cooler, back on motherboard).
IMHO tape is not needed, the pressure from the GPU cooler will be sufficient.

[misfit]

The heat from the soldering will most likely warp the shims, causing an air gap between them (or between shim/GPU).
You are better of just using AS5 between the 2 layers, then mount it on the GPU.

Yeah, quite possibly. I've been thinking about it since I wrote the earlier reply. Maybe if you put the shims in a vice (without AS5 between them) and soldered each edge very carefully you could keep contact towards the middle. However it'd be hard to be sure, hard to do and frankly just sticking them together with AS5 would likely be better.

Use some Kapton tape to hold the shims in place (tape on motherboard, over GPU/cooler, back on motherboard).
IMHO tape is not needed, the pressure from the GPU cooler will be sufficient.

I think it likely that you'd get away without having to use tape but it's an option.

Cheers,

[serpico]

Use some Kapton tape to hold the shims in place (tape on motherboard, over GPU/cooler, back on motherboard).
IMHO tape is not needed, the pressure from the GPU cooler will be sufficient.

I think it likely that you'd get away without having to use tape but it's an option.

Do you guys think that the shims will stay together and in contact with the GPU without tape, even if the laptop is moved around and temporarily not held flat?

This laptop mostly sits on my desk, but I wouldn't want to fry the board because the copper shim slid around the one time I move the laptop.

[misfit]

This laptop mostly sits on my desk, but I wouldn't want to fry the board because the copper shim slid around the one time I move the laptop.

Check yourself when you assemble. I think that, if done right the pressure from the screws holding the cooler down should hold the shim in place. Also AS5 is fairly thick and would act a bit like a glue, moreso as it ages and settles in. (AS5 is supposed to not reach it's best until after something like 50 hours of use/cycling. The website will say, I haven't looked there for a while.)

As mentioned, my 'spare' 15" IPS T60 is due for routine maintenance soon (I love mine so much I bought a near-identical spare while I could so, in case of catastrophic failure I can just drop the HDD into the other one). I intend to change the cooling mod from the 'coin on top of the cooler' mod to the 'copper shim' mod. I'll report back when that's done. (However I'm a procrastinator....)

Cheers,

[serpico]

Check yourself when you assemble. I think that, if done right the pressure from the screws holding the cooler down should hold the shim in place. Also AS5 is fairly thick and would act a bit like a glue, moreso as it ages and settles in. (AS5 is supposed to not reach it's best until after something like 50 hours of use/cycling. The website will say, I haven't looked there for a while.)

Just wanted to update you guys. I went back in and doubled-up on the copper shims, so now there are two copper shims sitting between the GPU and heatsink, with a thin layer of Arctic Silver 5 between each contact point. Didn't use try to solder or otherwise secure the copper shims. As misfit suggested, the screws holding down the heatsink, along with the AS5, seem to be holding the shims in place.

GPU temps are a few degrees lower now.

[lada]

Hiu guys, I have a T60p with 41W9932 fan with tpfc hardware controller (http://tpfc.mywo.org/). Although it can be very quiet in low speed mode, there are whining sounds. I've made a spectrogram of these sounds and found that there's something vibrating according to either fan speed or airflow speed. It's interesting, very distinct frequencies under 5kHz, then around 10kHz and the most stable one at 19900 Hz (with plenty of siblings from both sides). I want a new and better (no whining) fan, do you have experience with 41W6407 fan? That should be the latter manufactured fan. If you someone have it, could you record it's sound directly from the exhaust?

The spectrograms are here

http://aldebaran.feld.cvut.cz/~xmyslik/ ... n_ringing/

the most telling picture is perhaps this
http://aldebaran.feld.cvut.cz/~xmyslik/ ... sation.png

showing harmonic oscillations around 19900Hz. Fan was periodically been turned on for 15-20s, then 10s off, then next in 3 speeds.
I've made it with online spectrogram tool baudline for Linux (win version available).

I want to know what to expect from other fans. I want the best fan with the best acoustics (no harmonics).

The oscillations are perhaps the fins oscillating in an airflow, side lobes (with variable frequencies) maybe resonating air in cavities between fins.

If you know a better place to submit my question to, let me know. No flames please.

[Magic Wonder425]

If I were to use a dime to replace the GPU's thermal pad, would sanding it down be necessary? I'd be applying Arctic Silver 5 to each side so wouldn't that spread into it and conform to the coin's uneven surface?

Also I should slightly bend the heatsink because the GPU sits lower than the CPU correct? Here are pictures I took if it helps (before I cleaned): heatsink; CPU/GPU

[misfit]

If I were to use a dime to replace the GPU's thermal pad, would sanding it down be necessary? I'd be applying Arctic Silver 5 to each side so wouldn't that spread into it and conform to the coin's uneven surface?

If you're going to put it between the heatpipe/cooler and the GPU then - Yes. You'd need to sand it completely flat and use AS5 or similar on each side.

However most people put the coin *above* the the heatpipe - as a spacer between the clip and the pipe so that pressure is applied to the 'sink to hold it down after the pad is removed.

Also I should slightly bend the heatsink because the GPU sits lower than the CPU correct? Here are pictures I took if it helps (before I cleaned): heatsink; CPU/GPU

If you're putting a spacer (sanded coin or similar) *under* the cooler then no, it won't need bending as it'll be at about the same height as it was when the pad was there. You only need to (carefully) bend it if you're removing the pad and putting the coin above the 'sink.

[Magic Wonder425]

Ok so it would be layered as follows from top-to-bottom:

- clip
- spacer
- AS5
- slightly bent heatpipe
- AS5
- GPU

Correct?

[misfit]

Ok so it would be layered as follows from top-to-bottom:

- clip
- spacer
- AS5
- slightly bent heatpipe
- AS5
- GPU

Correct?

Not quite. In the above scenario there is no need for AS5 on top of the heatpipe, between it and the spacer. Just between heat source (GPU) and heat remover (heatpipe). If anything is put between those two then it will need to make excellent contact and have AS5 applied correctly. There would be no harm doing it that way, the paste may help to keep the spacer in place while assembling - however it's a waste of AS5 IMO.

Having messed about with the cooling on a few T60s now if I were to do it again I wouldn't bend the pipe - it's too easy to get a 'kink' in the pipe as it's thin-walled and is internally under a slight vacuum. If the pipe is kinked it can have a fairly detrimental effect on it's function. I'm not sure what wicking system IBM/Lenovo use in the T60 heatpipes (if any) as I haven't ripped one open. However if it's internal sinstering a kink in the pipe would crack it and reduce it's effectiveness. [See: http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.c ... cleID=2466 ]

Also, when you bend the heatpipe/cooler you have to bend it twice - once downwards towards the GPU and then - closer to the GPU, upwards again to ensure that the contact pad is parallel to the GPU's upper surface... and there isn't much length of free pipe to do that. (If you only bend once then the contact area can be angled relative to the GPU surface - resulting in poor cooling.) You also have to make sure that the northbridge is still cooled effectively. It's not as hot as the GPU - but can still get destructively hot if not in reasonable contact with the cooler.

If I were to do it again (and it's likely) then I'll put a copper shim/spacer between the GPU and pipe - with AS5 on both sides. (Perhaps even Arctic Alumina Thermal Epoxy Adhesive - which I bought some of recently - between the spacer and pipe, to be sure that it stays in place, then AS5 between modded cooler and GPU.) That way you don't need to bend the pipe and risk impacting it's functionality - effectively defeating the intent of the mod. I have saved up some bits of copper of varying thickness' sourced from scrapped laptops and also from a scrapped IBM ThinkPad powerbrick, specifically for the purpose.

That would be the ideal way. However the copper (and I wouldn't use a sanded-down coin - pure copper has the best thermal conductive characteristics of any readily-available material) would have to be completely flat, the thermal compound would have to be applied properly and a reasonable amount of pressure would have to be applied (read: bend the clip slightly to make it apply more pressure).

Also the fan and cooling fins have to be scrupulously clean to make the whole system effective. (I see yours aren't in the pics above.) Ideally the GPU heatpipe wouldn't have to do double-duty and cool the NB too. Heatpipes work best when it's point-to-point - heat at one end and cooling at the other. Adding another (albeit lesser) heatsource along the pipes length reduces it's efficiency. For that reason I've done what I can to insulate the GPU heatpipe in my latest T60 from the CPU's cooling pad on it's journey to the fins (a thin layer of cloth in between them).

Frankly I think that the design of the T60 cooler is pretty shoddy. IMO the GPU pipe should have made better contact with the pipe direct from the factory - without the need for goo pads. Also, if I were designing it, the GPU/NB heatpipe would be routed around the other side of the fan from the CPU cooling system to minimise heating the middle of the heatpipe (which impacts the evaporation at one end - condensation at the other end - basic function of a heatpipe).

There, I hope that you have enough info to decide your course of action to maximise the effectiveness of your cooler.

[Magic Wonder425]

Ok misfit, after reading your reply a few times here's what I did. I sanded down a dime* and inserted it under the heat pipe with AS5 applied to both sides. With my new fan in the old heatsink I reassembled the entire laptop and turned it on but was met with the "Fan Error" and two beeps. I referred to the hardware manual and it indicates it's either the fan, thermal grease, or system board.

Is there a way to determine what the problem might be? I bought the fan from ebay but is there a way to check if I got a bad part? Also since I bent the clip holding the heatsink down could it be applying too much pressure? Before I opened the laptop I only received the error a few times and some days it would start. I chose to replace the fan to avoid any overheating problems.

*The local hardware stores didn't have pure copper sheets and the ebay seller was away on vacation when I checked Monday hence opting to sand the dime down.

[misfit]

Ok misfit, after reading your reply a few times here's what I did. I sanded down a dime* and inserted it under the heat pipe with AS5 applied to both sides.
*The local hardware stores didn't have pure copper sheets and the ebay seller was away on vacation when I checked Monday hence opting to sand the dime down.

Ok, after reading this I went to Wiki and it seems that a dime is 75% copper-core with copper/nickel 'cladding' on each side, total copper content close to 92% copper. As a lot of heavy-hitting desktop CPU coolers have nickel plating (to stop the copper oxidising) I think that you'll be fine. As long as you sanded it completely flat, finishing with 800 grit (or better, 1200 grit) wet-and-dry paper - wet, on a piece of glass - so that it's nearly smooth? You know, standard 'lapping' procedures.

With my new fan in the old heatsink I reassembled the entire laptop and turned it on but was met with the "Fan Error" and two beeps. I referred to the hardware manual and it indicates it's either the fan, thermal grease, or system board.

When do you get the beeps? If they're instant I'd say that it's a fan (or fan header / power / controller) issue. If they're after it's been running a few seconds / minutes then it could be any of those.

Is there a way to determine what the problem might be? I bought the fan from ebay but is there a way to check if I got a bad part?

Put your old fan back long enough to test it? As I'm in New Zealand I don't deal with ebay sellers - maybe if you say which seller you got it from others here might be able to tell you if they know anything about the seller? (I've seen in other threads members recommending sellers. Did you check the forums before buying?)

Also since I bent the clip holding the heatsink down could it be applying too much pressure? Before I opened the laptop I only received the error a few times and some days it would start. I chose to replace the fan to avoid any overheating problems.

Did you check the surface of the GPU with a lens to see if it wasn't damaged? I seriously doubt that you could be applying too much pressure with the retaining clip - as long as it was fitted properly (no putting pressure on a corner of the GPU first...) Also did you check the fan header to see that the fan contacts were fine (not pitted from arcing or bent pins)?

I didn't realise that you were having an error issue previous to the mod or I would have suggested you sort that first. It is likely unrelated to the sub-par GPU cooling of the factory system - unless there were even more dust-bunnies in the fins than the pic you posted showed? The stock cooling system isn't ideal and can be improved upon but it's rarely (if ever) the cause of system beeps as long as it's clean of dust - and yours wasn't.

As long as you're satisfied that the shimmed cooler is making good contact with the GPU (and that the CPU and northbridge are getting cooling) then I suggest you try your old fan and see if that fixes the error. If not then someone else will have to help you. Trouble-shooting the electronic side of things isn't my forté - and this thread is about cooling mods rather than troubleshooting.

Best of luck,

[Magic Wonder425]

I did a bit of testing and fidgeting around with the laptop semi-open and I figured out the fan I bought had shoddy wiring. It won't respond depending on how it's oriented/bent coming out of the heatsink. My laptop is running slightly cooler than previously - I presume from cleaning out the dust and replacing the thermal pad with grease - but I had the intention of putting a better fan [FRU 42W2460] in place of the T60's OEM fan [FRU 41W6407] to have the temps even lower.

I might stick with the original fan, I might not, who knows. I'll research a little more on sellers and see what's available first.

*EDIT: I searched for a T500 fan and the best I could find was this. Others I came across were double or triple the price.

*EDIT #2: I re-assembled with the OEM T60 fan. Before I took it apart TPFanControl would show my temps rising to 80 degrees but now it's sitting at 60 while idle and hits mid-60s before the fan turns on.