Thinkpads Forum

I am looking to buy a T6x series thinkpad but I am concerned about the quality since Lenovo came into the picture. Is build quality/reliability better on the T60 vs T61? How do people feel about the P models?? Looking for something with dual core 2 ghz minimum, 2 gig of ram, and 100 gig hd. I am looking to spend about $550 or less and have found models on ebay of all of these in my price range. I want something that will last me for at least a couple more years. I think my main concern is performance of a core2duo versus just coreduo. Let me know what your take is on this...Thanks Chris

Welcome to the forum.

My preference is the 15" IPS Flexview T60 and T60p's. I prefer the wide viewing angles and deep color saturation.

You would need to decide what size you prefer 14" or 15". The flexview LCD's are only available in the 15" 4:3 ratio ThinkPads.

If the size or LCD type makes no difference than a T61p would be available with the fastest CPU. You may find one in your price range.

Brad

Welcome to the Forum.
What is the intended use for this laptop?
What size screen and resolution do you want/need?
The difference between Cduo and C2Duo isn't all that earth-shattering.
A T60 with ATI X1300 GPU, ca. 2.00Ghz CoreDuo and 14.1" SXGA (1440x1050) is IMHO the most desirable combination, that should last you for many years.
If you want widescreen, then a similar T61 is more for you.
P models tend to run hotter and (especially the nVidia equipped models) are more prone to GPU problems.

Thank you both for the warm welcome!!! I mostly use a computer for multi tabbed web browsing, and also usually run 2 IM programs as well. I also use word processing. I like to play games occasionally like Sims2. I have found online t60 2.0ghz coreduo with 2gig ram and 100 gig hd for $399 and t60p 15.4 screen for $540, t61 for $500 14.1 screen, and t61p for about $575 with the 15.4. Screen size isnt as important to me as the quality of the actual machine. The T60 and 61 I see have 2.0 processors and P models have a 2.2 and 2.3 processors. Will a 2.0 vs the 2.2 or 2.3 really be a large difference, warranting spending an extra $150?? I just want to get something reliable that will last, not like most of the new stuff that is sold today.
Are the 60 models built any better than 61 and vice versa?? Thanks again, Chris

There is no easy answer to this question.

I should really sleep now, but I cannot resist the temptation to muse again on one of my most favorite Thinkpad head-to-heads.

As far as pure hardware performance goes, T61 units max out way higher. For starts, they support up to 8GB RAM with the right OS, whereas the T60 is limited to 3GB (chipset). The later T61 units also have CPUs up to 2.8GHz/800MHz FSB, whereas the highest you can get in a T60 is a 2.33GHz/666MHz FSB, and these are rare and pricy. Also offering more powerful video cards (both in the integrated and discrete departments), Firewire, preinstalled WiFi N on many models, and a few other perks, make T61 the clear winner in the performance/features battle.

But the choice is not as clear as you would wish. T60 has some advantages over T61 as well. First and foremost - the availability of 15" 4:3 SXGA+/UXGA IPS high quality screens, which blow away any other laptop screens in existence in terms of viewing angles and color reproduction. Having worked with a few of these I can definitely say they are much more pleasant than the regular ones. Also, the overall availability of 4:3 is higher with T60s, and some people just don't dig widescreens... Although, you can get some 4:3 SXGA+ 14" T61 units (the early models), if you are patient.

Then, there is the nVidia problem. Unfortunately, the discrete nVidia GPUs on T61/T61p, while being noticeably more powerful than their T60/T60p counterparts from ATI, happen to belong to nVidia's infamous faulty series, which means they have a higher chance of failure.

Another thing, and here we are getting into a moot point - the 965/ICH8M chipset used in the T61 seems to be less reliable than the 945/ICH7M used in the T60. It can be a combination of hardware, drivers by Intel and software by Lenovo, and I don't have any empirical data to support this claim, and I am sure some people here can provide the counter claim, but my company has had fleets of T60, T61, and T400, and by far the T61 were the most glitchy, causing a plethora of small annoying issues, e.g., freezes/bluescreens when docking/undocking or coming out of standby, various minor things (touchpad/wireless) stopping to work until you reboot, and so forth, compared both to its predecessor the T60 and its successor the T400.

Finally, this is mostly an issue of aesthetics, arguably the least important of points, but I just find the design of the T61 (and it's successors, T400/T500) plain repulsive. It looks ugly, it takes more space than it should with the extra-thick bezels, and the battery situation on the 14" wide model is downright ridiculous. Even the standard 6-cell battery sticks out, and the extended 9-cell almost make it look like the laptop is the extension of the battery, not vice-versa.

You can find some comparison pictures I made a while ago, comparing various T60 and T61 aspects:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=73194
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=78555

Finally, comparing P and non-P models, the only real two differences are: more powerful graphics card (which also runs much hotter), and availability of high-resolution screens (UXGA/WUXGA). Also, P models tend to be configured with higher-end components (CPU/RAM/HD/peripherals), but all of these can also be had in a non-P model. Usually (again, my opinion), the difference in performance is not noticeable and does not justify the premium price of a P model.

Thank you for very detailed review. I think the t60 maybe the better model for me, now just to decide if I want to try a t60p. Does the t60p have the "dud" graphics card or not?? Thanks Chris

cfslevin wrote:I think the t60 maybe the better model for me

A Core-duo processor will not run a 64 bit OS, which IMO is a significant issue already, and will become even more significant as time progresses.

In terms of T60 vs T61, I'd definitely go for a T61 with the Intel integrated GPU over a T60.

Cheers,

Bill B.

bill bolton wrote:

A Core-duo processor will not run a 64 bit OS, which IMO is a significant issue already, and will become even more significant as time progresses.

And any T60/p with a Rev 3 motherboard will run a Core 2 Duo CPU (T7200/7400/7600).

Having said that, I agree that T61 with Intel graphics is a decently equipped machine for the years to come, with its ability to run 8GB RAM if needed, and not suffering from the ills of nVidia GPUs present on more fancy versions of T61 and T61p.

My vote would go to T60/p with an IPS LCD if you're looking for a 15" unit, or to T61 (4:3) 14" with Intel graphics if you're after a smaller machine.

ajkula66 wrote:And any T60/p with a Rev 3 motherboard will run a Core 2 Duo CPU (T7200/7400/7600).

Indeed. The 3GB memory limit is far more crippling though. What is the benefit of a 64bit OS, if you still can not utilize more than 3GB?

3GB should still be enough for most common tasks for a few years to come, but if you use memory-consuming applications (such as CAD) or run virtual machines, you will hit the wall with it very fast, in which case you probably want to steer clear from the T60.

Though I haven't seen a T60 with the IPS Flexview screen option (and which I think is a favorite among the uber-Thinkpad fans here), I will still place my bet on the T61/T61p line.

It's a definite plus to run 64-bit OSs/apps and at the same time having more magnesium alloys embracing your whole system (in the LCD lid and around the mainboard). Also, I'd second Bill Bolton's recommendation of having an integrated GPU'd T61 over those that have dedicated graphics in them.

But wherever your preferences may lead you, you'll never go wrong with a ThinkPad.

I just won a t60 on epay for $450 shipped, it has onsite warranty til 5-2010 and is a 2.0 core2duo t7200, 2gig ram, 100 gig hd 14.1 xga, wireless a/b/g. How does this sound for the money in peoples opinions, I can always resell if I have to. The cheapest t60p i was finding was $540 shipped with similar specs to this $450 machine. I had also seen regular t60 with the t2400 2.0 duo for $400 and up shipped, so I was thinking for $450 to have the warranty valid and have the core2duo as well. Let me know how you think I did. I dont really like what I have been hearing about the t61 and if I do consider a t61 how do I make sure it has the integrated graphics vs the nvidia setup. Thanks Chris

The specs look nice except the XGA screen. At least for me. I would prefer SXGA+.

I am still torn between the t60 with the 14.1 xga, 2.0ghz T7200, 100 gig hd, and 2gig ram and ati radeon x1300 for the $450
OR

a t60p with a 15.4, 2.33 ghz T7600 160 gig hd, 2 gig ram with ati mobile fire V5250. for $540

Is it worth the extra $90 to buy the t60p versus the t60 as equipped above?? Thanks again, Chris

I suppose the "best" would be a hybrid, see this post about installing a T61 mobo in a T60 base --> http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=74413

Eventually, I hope to gather the parts and build a hybrid with an Intel GPU T61 mobo and a Core 2 Duo 2.6GHz T9500 in a 15" T60 base with a FlexView UXGA display.

That's pretty ultimate.

Regarding the OP's current conundrum, exercise patience and hold out for a 15" T60p with an SXGA+ or UXGA display!

How to I tell what kind of display it has if they do not state it. This is what they state in the description about the display.

15.4" Widescreen LCD Screen (1680 x 1050 resolution)

is this xga, uxga, sxga or another type??? Thanks Again

That's WSXGA+...standard (4:3) panels go like this:

1024x768 - XGA

1400x1050 - SXGA+

1600x1200 - UXGA

Widescreen panels:

1280x800 - WXGA

1440x900 - WXGA+

1680x1050 - WSXGA+

1920x1200 - WUXGA

Hope this helps.

IPS panels were offered in 15" models as SXGA+ and UXGA, so what you're looking at is a standard TN panel.

Trying to make a decision today, what do you think? Are these prices fair for what I get or can I find for less maybe on marketplace forum?? Is it justifiable to get the t60p for the extra $90? Just want to try and get a fair deal here.

I am still torn between the t60 with the 14.1 xga, 2.0ghz T7200, 100 gig hd, and 2gig ram and ati radeon x1300 for the $450
OR

a t60p with a 15.4 wsxga+, 2.33 ghz T7600 160 gig hd, 2 gig ram with ati mobile fire V5250. for $540

I think the T60p is very worth your extra 90 bucks.

trying to see if I can get the guy to lower his price any....wish me luck!!!!

Ended up buying a local X60 with 2.0 core2duo 2 gig ram, 120 gig hd , docking station with dvd rw, 12.1 screen, fingerprint reader and verizon wireless built in. I got a deal I could pass up. Now I am trying to get used to not having a regular trackpad. Thank you for all the input and hopefully the x60 will work for me, if not I will have to look for something else. Chris

Congrats on the X60! From someone who uses both an X61s and a T60p, both are pretty fine machines. It all depends on what you're looking for: the X60 offers better portability and great battery life(especially with the extended 8-cell), while the T60/p offers more powerful components and graphics options. If you're not going ot be doing any sort of gaming on this machine, it'll do just fine. I use my X61s for going out and about and generally keep the T60p as a 'around the house' notebook right now.

yeah I was looking at t60 in the same range with similar specs so I decided to go with the smaller unit, the t60p i wanted with the better graphics and a slightly larger hd was going to be 540 and I figured for $400 (a steal) I would try the x60 and see how it works for me size wise and so far I am adjusting very well!!!

it all really comes down to whether you are looking for quality flewview or power. in my case i don't do as much gaming anymore as i used to so i mostly use my computer for internet, movies, etc. flexview in my case makes more sense.

I think the z61t has been entirely looked over here by the 4:3 snobs... Not only do I love the form factor, the prices have plummeted far below the T60 while having comparable (if not better) build quality. They are also capable of C2D processors, but also have the 3GB RAM cap. I have a T61 sitting gathering dust, but I am unwilling to give up my beloved z61t for it. Right now the minor performance boost just isn't worth giving up the machine.

I agree 3GB of ram is plenty for everyday use, i mean how much RAM is your MS word and IE8 going to use? One the other hand MS office 10 and IE10 might require 8GB of ram...

sparta.rising wrote:I think the z61t has been entirely looked over here by the 4:3 snobs... Not only do I love the form factor, the prices have plummeted far below the T60 while having comparable (if not better) build quality. They are also capable of C2D processors, but also have the 3GB RAM cap. I have a T61 sitting gathering dust, but I am unwilling to give up my beloved z61t for it. Right now the minor performance boost just isn't worth giving up the machine.

Z61t has been overlooked not so much because it's not 4:3, but because it's not a T. And unjustly so. It is an excellent machine, and has a couple of advantages over the T60 (card reader, firewire, s-video). Not to mention it's lighter (especially without the stupid titanium lid). Downsides compared to a T60 are shorter battery life (4/7-cell compared to 6/9-cell) and the fact that high-end configs (C2D/WXGA+ are pretty rare). And the pre-C2D models don't support DVI-out.

Maybe a poll attached to this?

I have a T61p at work, and a T60p at home (see specs in sig). Despite the T61 being a little faster, the screen on the T60 si just so much nicer that I think I will have a hard time ever buying a different laptop. A faster CPU/GPU would be nice, but since I don't game it is not really an issue. All-in-all, I think a T60p is a pretty capable machine for anything short of gaming & seriously large CAD projects. I am running Win7 Ultimate on it & it was a breath of fresh air...noticeably faster than XP.

how about the heat issue? which one runs cooler, I know that T60s had problem with running really hot.

bmwman91 wrote:I am running Win7 Ultimate on it & it was a breath of fresh air...noticeably faster than XP

Interesting, if you go by the benchmarks, XP usually scores better.

mattbiernat wrote:I know that T60s had problem with running really hot.

I think that was the T60p because of the GPU, but the standard T60 I've seen have run pretty cool and quiet.