Thinkpads Forum

Hi, hoping to find some help and guidance re my next Thinkpad.

Been using a T22 since, well 2001 effectively, now its time for a replacement. I'm stuck between a T4x and a T6x. (I'm also a bit baffled by the various Intel processors, knew where I was with P3 and 4, but T2xxx T7xxx???)

What are the main differences between
1. a T4x and a T6x,
2. a Tx0 and a Tx1 (eg T40 and T41, T60 and T61). If its simply processor speed, then that is that dealt with
3. a Txx model and the p version of the class

4. I've seen T4x with in-built 3G capabillity, presumably this is on an internal expansion card of some sort. Can this be added to a model (e.g. T60) that does not have it?

5. Most seem to have 802.11b/g. Presumably this is on an internal card. Can it be swapped out for a 802.11n capable card?
If so, does it have any drawbacks - such as losing other functions on the card (such as wired LAN ), or only certain cards will work?

Many thanks for any help and advice.

Edit - ah, sorted out a few of them.

1. Pentium-M vs Core 2 Duo, USB 1 vs USB 2, etc.
3. "Custom" design, slightly higher spec. From what I have seen, the p can command £150+ higher prices, but all I have seen is a better gfx solution. The cost, for me, does not deliver an advantage.
4. Can add on the second slot, it appears?


Can anyone confirm/comment on questions 2 and 5?

In terms of hardware:

T40/T41/T42 use the same chipset, and same CPUs, which got a bit faster with each new generation. Dothan CPUs in T42 are faster and more energy efficient than their Banias siblings in T40/T41. RAM, hard drives are also all interchangeable across the board. T42 have faster GPU options (Mobility 9600).

T43 is actually quite different. It uses a different, faster chipset, and faster (and these days cheaper) DDR2 memory. It also supports SATA hard drives (compared to older PATA), but due to various considerations, Lenovo opted to still use PATA drives in this model, through a proprietary SATA-PATA bridge. As a result, it still takes the same drives as the rest of the T4x, and also has the 2010 error on startup for drives which are not in the white list (but you can still use the machine after bypassing the error message).

T60 is probably the biggest technological jump - the first model to offer dual core CPUs, and native SATA drives. It also marks the biggest change in the series in terms of accessories - new batteries, power adapter connector, new docking station connector. So T4x accessories will not be compatible with T6x and vice versa.

Late T60 models offered Core 2 Duo CPUs - the first 64bit CPU on a Thinkpad. But since the chipset is limited to 3GB memory support, one cannot fully utilize the advantage of 64bit.

T61 offered faster dual core CPUs, faster chipset/RAM, faster video cards, first T-series with Firewire support, and also the first that can utilize 4GB+ of RAM.

dr_st beat me to it!
Welcome to the Forum.
some stuff that is missing in his post:

2)T40/T41 have only 14" LCD. T42/T43 also 15" LCD.
T60 and T61 are related, but T61 also available in widescreen.
T61 not recommendable due to nVidia Gfx problems.

3) P versions have more powerful graphics, and are usually top of the line.

4) Not aware of 3G in a T43, but T60 and up have that as options. If not built-in ex factory, AFAIK not possible to do later, unless you buy a new LCD lid.
5) before T60, all models use a miniPCI wifi card which can be updated to whatever you like. T60 and up use miniPCIexpress, also updatable to whatever you like. Only older models like T2x and T30 series might lose modem functionality. All newer ones don't lose anything.

Well, I was considering putting more stuff in, but then I would end up with a post that is too long and confusing, and also it would take me more time and someone would beat me to it!

This way we can ping-pong between us, and each new post will add some new information.

Here are all the options for screen sizes:

T40/T41/p: 14" 4:3
T42/T43/p: 14" 4:3 and 15" 4:3
T60/p: 14" 4:3, 15" 4:3 and 15.4" widescreen (last one on Core 2 Duo models only)
T61/p: 14" 4:3 (very few, only in the beginning), 14" widescreen (not on T61p) and 15.4" widescreen

And there are also the rare Z60t/Z61t, being 14" widescreen alternatives of T43/T60 respectively, with many of the same hardware characteristics.

The T41 and T42 were plagued with graphics chip problems (see sticky). The T40 was pre-RoHS and appears to have fewer of these problems at the T43 also appears to have fewer of these problems although I'm not sure why.

The T60 had cooling issues which were addressed with a new heatsink/fan in the T61.

The T61 supposedly has an issue with the nVidia graphics chip but I've only seen a handful of reports of this on the T61 so I don't know if it's really an issue. The T61p had a motherboard tolerance issue which would cause the system to crash on 3D graphics if you had 2 memory chips installed.

So........ if your T22 is still working well, you might want to consider just how badly you need to upgrade!

All - thanks for the replies.

I guess it comes down to

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 1127wt_939

or

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... K:MEWAX:IT

The former at UKP299, plus postage, the later at UKP239 inc. Are the advantages of the T61 over the T60 really worth 60 quid more? Thats 60quid I'd rather spend on a second charger/mains unit and towards a docking bay of some description. And prolly a new battery too!

The T22 is a lovely machine, find for what I want; wireless surveys, browsing, Word, under XP and Linux. But the 20gb hard disk is becoming an issue, as is the need to use USB2 for which I have to use an external card in the PCMCIA slot. I've got a netgear 511T in there, and with the USB card in as well the wireless cuts out. I need the USB to drive external HD at decent speed. Its also slowing down, and XP re-installs are becoming tedious. Lovely machine, I have docking bays.. BUT the battery no longer holds charge, and the charger has died. So I'm looking at spending around ukp100 to get it going again. I might as well spend that towards a new Thinkpad...

Thanks alll. Comments on the two items?

sktn77a wrote:The T41 and T42 were plagued with graphics chip problems (see sticky). The T40 was pre-RoHS and appears to have fewer of these problems at the T43 also appears to have fewer of these problems although I'm not sure why.

I seem to remember someone's testimony on these forums where he reported that a bunch of T40s his company had were suffering from the GPU syndrome. So I guess they were not free from these problems, but maybe some older T40 units, manufactured pre-RoHS didn't have them. Newer ones did.

Here's the link (look at beeblebrox's first post in the thread): http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 79#p446879

Also in that thread, ajkula66 explains why T43 and late T42 units had much less GPU problems (new soldering technique).

sktn77a wrote:The T60 had cooling issues which were addressed with a new heatsink/fan in the T61.

The cooling issues mostly plagued T60p models with the hot, hot V5200/5250 GPUs, esp. in the 14" format. The ATI X1300/X1400 GPUs are far less hot, and should not experience any overheating under normal circumstances, although when stressed they do run hot. Intel GPU T60s are not hot at all.

T2XXX processors are the Core Duo units. T7XXX are Core 2 Duo units. C2D's usually consume a little more power, but can be a great upgrade depending on what the laptop came with. They are also necessary if you ever want to use a 64bit OS.

2) TX0 laptops launched the series. TX1 units generally share a similar chassis but are new hardware usually with some fixes, new motherboard, added features & faster CPU/GPU.

4) You can get a WAN card & put it in the other Mini PCIe / USB slot inside.

5) Yes, you can swap in a 802.11n card. I got an Intel 5300AGN card on eBay for $35US. HOWEVER, you will most likely need to run a modified BIOS to get the laptop to boot / card to work if you buy an older Thinkpad (including T61). The modded BIOS files are available here.

My observations:
I have a T61p at work and a T60p at home (w/ IPS display).

The T61 IS faster, but not by all that much, especially after swapping a C2D into the T60. The GPU is getting to be a bit outdated, so if you want to run any newer games you'll be turning the effects quality knob way down. The "newest" game I have run on mine is Far Cry, and that runs pretty smoothly at max detail settings, 0XAA & 1280x1024. That's pretty irrelevant though since I don't game. SolidWorks 2008 & other CAD programs run just fine. Movies / music / other media runs flawlessly. Viewing Flash videos in full screen required me to turn off hardware acceleration (right click video you are watching > settings) to get it running smoothly. I think this is an ATI driver issue though. BTW the Lenovo-ATI drivers suck. I ended up using some Omega drivers & everything is good, but you have to forfeit Lenovo's Presentation Director app (it is convenient if you dock).

Frankly, I don't know if I can ever get another laptop. The IPS display is soooo darn nice. The screen on the T61 looks like faded, hazy junk in comparison! I have yet to see any screen on any laptop stack up to the IPS used in some T60's (SOME, not ALL). A few units with glossy screens look as good in dark rooms, but the glare is killer in real life situations. Making a decision on a laptop based mostly upon the screen may sound silly to some, but the difference it makes in terms of eye-strain is huge. A crisp, clear screen is crucial when the resolution is high and you write code / work with numbers in Excel / read forums lol.

There are 2 "issues" with the T60 that I have found (but I consider them pretty minor since I love this laptop so much!).
1) Magnesium frame is sometimes broken on the left side (by the heat sink) from rough handling. You can tell if it is broken by how loose the LCD is & if the keyboard bezel shifts when moving the LCD. If left broken, the other screen hings will eventually break off the other side and the LCD will no longer be attached! I replaced my cracked frame with an eBay unit for $70US. It was broken when I received it, so the previous owner must have dropped it.
2) The GPU tends to run hot. If you are a confident DIY'er, you can drop it by about 10C. You really need to know what you are doing with thermal pastes & such though.

alewis wrote:All - thanks for the replies.

The former at UKP299, plus postage, the later at UKP239 inc. Are the advantages of the T61 over the T60 really worth 60 quid more? Thats 60quid I'd rather spend on a second charger/mains unit and towards a docking bay of some description. And prolly a new battery too!

The T22 is a lovely machine, find for what I want; wireless surveys, browsing, Word, under XP and Linux. But the 20gb hard disk is becoming an issue, as is the need to use USB2 for which I have to use an external card in the PCMCIA slot. I've got a netgear 511T in there, and with the USB card in as well the wireless cuts out. I need the USB to drive external HD at decent speed. Its also slowing down, and XP re-installs are becoming tedious. Lovely machine, I have docking bays.. BUT the battery no longer holds charge, and the charger has died. So I'm looking at spending around ukp100 to get it going again. I might as well spend that towards a new Thinkpad...

Thanks alll. Comments on the two items?

Alrighty... Both machines are fairly close to each other in specification. The T60 has more RAM(2GB), but the T61 can take up to 8GB of RAM versus the T60's 3GB max. Both of them have Core 2 Duo processors, although if memory serves you have a slightly more powerful Penryn in the T61... you probably won't notice much difference between the two machines as far as as processing power goes.

Since you're asking about hard drive space, both machines use newer SATA drives. I can't tell you prices since you're in the UK and I'm in the US, but you can get up to 500GB drives for reasonable deals. If you don't need an optical drive, getting an Ultrabay hard drive caddy allows you a space increase of up to 1TB... meaning you don't necessarily have to lug around an external hard drive.

One glaring difference will be that the T61 will be widescreen, the T60 will be standard-screen. If you don't particularly like widescreen notebooks, this might be a point to consider.

The T61 has integrated Intel GMA 965 graphics; the T60(looking at the seven digit build code) comes with an Intel GMA 950, which is slightly older. If you're planning on doing anything gaming-related, you're better off with the T61, but either integrated graphics solution won't play newer games enjoyably. Both will be a massive leap from what you have in the T22, however. Both chipsets will run Vista/Win7 Aero effects just fine or probably some of the more 'eye candy heavy' Linux GUI options out there, if that's a concern for you. If you need more graphics horsepower, I'd suggest going for the T60p which has the ATI FireGL V5200/V5250... it will run hot and the card is slightly outdated, but it will run some newer games. You can also get a 15" model with an IPS display... one of the best quality displays for a notebook but you will be spending several extra quid for it. They're also going to be heavier than the 14" machines you're looking at.

Either way you slice it they're both nice machines and if you don't really need the 8GB max RAM of the T61 you won't regret getting the T60. You'll find it a great upgrade from your T22.

Again, thanks to all. I'm going to opt for the T60, the T61 doesn't offer enough extras for the extra ukp150. I dont game, and 3Gb is more than enough for what I need to do. I have desktops to run 64bit OS...

Hmm, I'd LOVE a T60p. But not at ukp500 and upwards.

I also wish I had known about this forum back in 2004!

Edit. Bought the T60. Seller had a couple in auction starting at 199. Ended up bagging one for 204. Bit cheaper than the 239 and 279 B-I-N. Expect more questions, and requests for modded BIOS, very soon!

alewis wrote:Again, thanks to all. I'm going to opt for the T60, the T61 doesn't offer enough extras for the extra ukp150. I dont game, and 3Gb is more than enough for what I need to do. I have desktops to run 64bit OS...

Hmm, I'd LOVE a T60p. But not at ukp500 and upwards.

I also wish I had known about this forum back in 2004!

Edit. Bought the T60. Seller had a couple in auction starting at 199. Ended up bagging one for 204. Bit cheaper than the 239 and 279 B-I-N. Expect more questions, and requests for modded BIOS, very soon!

Not a problem! If you have any other use for an x64 OS or programs, that T60 will be able to run them as it has an x64 processor(any Core 2 Duo will be x64)... I'm in fact using the exact same CPU in my T60p. I'm currently using x64 Vista and it works just fine. Since the number of x64 applications available are only going to increase as time goes on and support for x32 systems will eventually start falling by the wayside I find it a good idea to run the newest software my hardware will support.

bmwman91 wrote:...
5) Yes, you can swap in a 802.11n card. I got an Intel 5300AGN card on eBay for $35US. HOWEVER, you will most likely need to run a modified BIOS to get the laptop to boot / card to work if you buy an older Thinkpad (including T61). The modded BIOS files are available here.

Like this one

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/INTEL-5300agn-802 ... 3582wt_939

Slightly concerned that it says "NOT HP or IBM". Do you use Linus with the 5300AGN? Wondering if drivers are available, or if it works with some/any of the security tools such as cowpatty, aircrack-ng, etc.

From where do I obtain a modified BIOS?

I have ... a T60p at home (w/ IPS display).

git! for telling me that

Look at Zender's BIOS postings: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=55837

I'm still running a t23.

Runs great, although a little slow for some websites. Probalby because I'm most likely running a 5400rpm hard drive. Although it runs 100% quiet.

I'm in sort of the same position. Looking to get the last great 4:3 format laptop. Based on what everyone has said here, the t60 is the one to get and the t6x with the nvidia problem is the one to avoid.

The reason I'm still using my t23 is that it's my backup after my asus video card crapped out. Again with a nvidia gpx.

fefrie wrote:I'm still running a t23.

Runs great, although a little slow for some websites. Probalby because I'm most likely running a 5400rpm hard drive. Although it runs 100% quiet.

I'm in sort of the same position. Looking to get the last great 4:3 format laptop. Based on what everyone has said here, the t60 is the one to get and the t6x with the nvidia problem is the one to avoid.

The reason I'm still using my t23 is that it's my backup after my asus video card crapped out. Again with a nvidia gpx.

If you're looking for the last great 4:3 Thinkpad, look no further than the 15" T60/p with Flexview. I'm highly satisfied with mine, and that's after moving up from a T21(with a brief flirtation with a couple of T4x systems). The feel's a little different from a T2x, but the build quality seems to be just about as good. Get a Core 2 Duo T7xxx processor, fast HDD or SSD, and max out the RAM and you should be good for a while. I don't have any intentions of moving on to anything newer for a while.

For some reason, i'm not really a big fan of 15" 4:3 systems.

I definitley like the 14" form factor.

I haven't been spoiled by the flexview so I won't worry about that so much.

However, I do want a 1400x1050 screen. Is that possible?

Yes, there are plenty of 14" 1400x1050 T60s around. Even some early T61s.

As you can see in my signature there are some T61 with 14" SXGA+ screens without faulty nVidia card. Moreover, the machine I have runs T8100 CPU and I suppose that it is one of the latest (not early) T61 made as it is manufactured in 07.2008.
I am not that impressed by the LCD quality though. This is one of the weakest points of this machine (well, to be frank, of many ThinkPads).

Any comments on this

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 3132wt_939

with the help of Zenders work, of course. I'm presuming it is what others have used?

Slightly concerned that it says "NOT HP or IBM". Do you use Linus with the 5300AGN? Wondering if drivers are available, or if it works with some/any of the security tools such as cowpatty, aircrack-ng, etc.

I do not know if there are Linux drivers available for it, but based upon my experiences with Linux, someone somewhere probably has working drivers.

I do not know if it matters what brand of laptop the adapters are "for." As long as you run the hacked BIOS, it should work. I think you need a Lenovo card if you want the Fn+F5 stuff to work. It is not something that bothers me, so I just bought whatever was available.