Thinkpads Forum

Hi

I offer a reflowing service via these forums and are based in UK. We reflow (and are starting reballing this week) graphics chips mainly for T4x series. We are also sucessfully reflowing many HP laptops with Nvidia graphics chips.

I've just been advised that T61 / T61p which are fitted with Nvidia graphics chips are also failing, because, probably due to a design issue, the temperature of the chip becomes very high and eventually fails with no display.

After a lot of research and talking to one or two "Teckies" on these forums, we aren't sure what happens with these chips when the screen blanks. Does the chip actually burn out, or does it become unsoldered?

Reading posts on a number of forums, there's some evidence to suggest that when the internal display blanks, the external output via a monitor sometimes still works, and this suggests it's an unsoldering problem rather than actual failure.

I don't have access to a T61 / T61p and I'm asking if someone with such a T61/p if could send it to me to try a reflow. Even if this works for a short time, it will demonstrate that it's not chip failure but has become unsoldered

If it's a soldering problem we plan to reball the chips (not just reflow them) them, but before committing to this we do need a donor laptop or two first.

The deal is that we do the reflow for free and will then do a proper reball again free of charge. I would request a contribution for return carriage though which is why I'm suggesting this for UK and European customers - though I'll take anyone!

Please note that if we fix it, it does not remove the original overheating problem, just extends the life of the laptop.

Also if you do send us your laptop I cannot guarantee we can repair this issue - it may come back bricked, it's the risk you take. However you've already got the problem so in a way you have nothing to lose.

The second thing is that if it's an actual chip failure, I can't find anywhere which sells replacement chips. Does anyone know a source of them?

The T61 uses the Nvidia NVS 140M, and the T61p the Nvidia Quadro FX570M.

I would also be very grateful if someone could give me the full part numbers of the chips as written on the top of the chips.

So to sum up:

• 1. Someone to send me a T61/p to reflow and they won't be charged anything. Ideally this would be someone in UK or Europe
  
  2. To find a company which sells replacement chips.
  
  3. To get the full chip part numbers.

Many thanks indeed and please get back to me with any questions, comments etc.

Best regards

Nick

poshgeordie wrote: Reading posts on a number of forums, there's some evidence to suggest that when the internal display blanks, the external output via a monitor sometimes still works, and this suggests it's an unsoldering problem rather than actual failure.

Nick:

I would think this suggests the opposite - if the external display remains on but the internal display blanks, then it sounds like a display/backlight/inverter issue, not a graphics chip issue (?)

@sktn77a:
Graphics on a laptop are split in 2 ways: a digital part, which feeds the internal LCD, and an analog part, which feeds the external display.
On newer machines, AFAIK the internal digital signal is also switched through to the DVI port, as found on docking stations.

RBS has said it - I've done a lot of reading up on this and symptoms were typically that internal screen fails in the context of an unsoldered chip but may still work on the external VGA.

In other words very similar to T4x graphics problems.

What would really help me is to have the actual part numbers as written on the chips themselves, so I can identify the chips.

I'm quite certain now that the chips need reballing, but we cannot do that until we can do a BGA ball count and actually see the layout pattern on the chip and motherboard.
This will then allow us to buy in the correct reballing templates.

So if anyone can help me out with the part numbers, and also to send us a bricked board I'd be very grateful - and you'd get a free fix too!

I have this issue with my T61p at work (so unfortunately, I cannot ship company property to you for testing). When I am doing anything that is GPU-intensive, the display (internal and external DVI/VGA) goes blank. If I Alt+F4 & kill whatever app was stressing the GPU, the display will come back on after a minute or two. This indicates to me that it is a solder ball issue. The substrate heats up, and either the balls between it & the MoBo or it & the silicon break contact from thermal expansion mismatch between the various materials. Once it cools, things go back to normal.

RealBlackStuff wrote:@sktn77a:
Graphics on a laptop are split in 2 ways: a digital part, which feeds the internal LCD, and an analog part, which feeds the external display.
On newer machines, AFAIK the internal digital signal is also switched through to the DVI port, as found on docking stations.

Hmmm, well, I'm not sure how any video signal would get generated for either monitor if the video chip is is inop (?) but I'll take you guys' word for it.

@sktn77a:

Think about it as of different stages on planar's way to the final and ultimate failure...

Many a times, you'll see garbled display or no display at all on the LCD, while VGA will still be OK. I've seen this on units as old as A3x series, and as new as T61/p.

Eventually - which can be in three days or in a year - everything will die and any image will disappear. Variations on the given theme are many, but the outcome - if the problem is left untreated - is the same: dead machine.

I have a few of the Quadro NVS 140M chips (new) that I will sell at my cost. PM if interested.

richk wrote:I have a few of the Quadro NVS 140M chips (new) that I will sell at my cost. PM if interested.

Thanks Richk - PM sent.

This is what is really guilty?

1. Binder (without lead)
2. Nvidia chipset
3. Soldering points on the board
4. Cooling

If the chip is to blame if you can replace the 570M chip to another? which works with the T61p motherboard?

grafix wrote:This is what is really guilty?

1. Binder (without lead)
2. Nvidia chipset
3. Soldering points on the board
4. Cooling

If the chip is to blame if you can replace the 570M chip to another? which works with the T61p motherboard?

I'm going to comment on T61 series fitted with this family of chips.

There are design issues with these series of chips, so 1 is the most "guilty".
Also you need to add a new section 5, which is problems with the micro solder joints (called high lead bumps) between the chip layers which become unsoldered, again a design issue.
Then we need a new section 6 which is that Lenovo have glued these chips to the motherboard with clear epoxy. The only way of removing these chips to reball them (if the solder balls have become unsoldered / damaged) is to grind the chips off the board and replace them with new ones. There is a big problem with is because the last time I looked we couldn't buy any new replacement chips so this means that any motherboard with this problem is only good for the trash.

General comments regarding this series of chips on other makes of laptops (HP, Sony, Acer, Samsung, Dell, Apple etc etc) - number 1 again, and equal with the new number 5 (high-lead bumps).
Interestingly there is an uprated chip for some of these models which is supposed to run cooler - we're currently trying them but none for T61 series AFAIK
There are also unsoldered solder ball issues so, 3 is next. We find this in around half of these laptops.
The problem is not helped in that 95% are full of dirt in the Fan Assembly and will have caused the laptop to run very hot, so number 4 is next.

As a general rule you could say that number 2 the nvidia chipset is a big problem because of some of the other numbers.

Hope that helps and is not too confusing!

So there are not really out of this swamp.
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/new ... -defective


Conversion to other chips is not feasible?
These signs and articles that other parties also have the defect.
http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/new ... a-55nm-bad

yeah I'm familiar with the first article and created a thread based on this information here.

Not sure if I've got the second link in my article but I'll check tonight and update it in any case.

Unfortunately it's a very poor situation, but I know Lenovo were replacing these faulty boards so check out my article and look at the Lenovo link within it for the latest information on that.

I'm sure you are aware now now, that Lenovo finally decided to replace those motherboards, even when out of warranty.
See http://www.thinkpads.com/forum/viewtopi ... 29&t=93357 but it is not all fun and games yet.

One more question, do you know if this only concerns the nVidia Quadro NVS-140M, or does it also involve the FX-570M?

Thanks for that info RBS - I'll get my post updated with this information as well.

I feel it's letting me off the hook as well since I'm getting quite a few enquiries and having to turn the down due to the epoxy issue as much as anything.

Not sure about that chip. Will look into it tonight.

Ok. It's still two questions.

1. Is nvidia GPU without fault, which can replace the 570M chip?
2. In desperation - Is the motherboard without fault, which is a replacement for my current Thinkpad 61p? What is its number?