Thinkpads Forum

Hello all,

I recently bought a used T61 (7665-13U) that has the Nvidia Quadro 140M. It's been working fine so far except for one issue (will get to that later) but as I read more about the machine, I'm turning up more and more threads about the extremely high failure rate. I have a few questions that I'm hoping someone might be able to answer.

- Is the video card failure essentially a sure thing? I've read reports that ALL of the Nvidia chips are faulty, and scattered reports from individuals that theirs are fine. I try to always use the laptop with an attached cooling pad, and the wristrest is typically cool to the touch or very slightly warm. I do not play games or any 3D applications that would place extended stress on the CPU or GPU.

- I turned up a post from Mark @ Lenovo (unable to find the thread now) where he reported that only laptops manufactured before a certain date in 2008 were affected. Is there any way I can find my T61's manufacture date? Using the Type and the Serial number, I can only see that it IS in warranty until October 2010.

- There seems to be an unrelated problem with the headphone jack. I will probably send it to Lenovo for warranty work. I am assuming that they will merely replace the motherboard - will this decrease my chances of the Nvidia failure in the future? Or could it possibly make a bad situation more likely?

Thanks for any advice!

sl8763 wrote:- Is the video card failure essentially a sure thing?

I don't know enough about the history behind this particular failure mechanism (my understanding is that it's caused by thermal cycling affecting internal solder joints) to definitely say it's a sure thing. Relying on forum postings to discern the failure rate can be misleading. People will flock to online forums and report problems with their systems, while the people who never experience an issue will not have the inclination to post about their trouble-free laptop. Of course, those people may not be stressing their GPUs enough to induce the problem. If the problem is indeed related to the use of brittle solder inside the flip-chip package, then yes, the entire line could be affected.

sl8763 wrote:- I turned up a post from Mark @ Lenovo (unable to find the thread now) where he reported that only laptops manufactured before a certain date in 2008 were affected. Is there any way I can find my T61's manufacture date? Using the Type and the Serial number, I can only see that it IS in warranty until October 2010.

On the online warranty page, you should be able to see how long the warranty period was for (under "Description"). If you are covered for three years and the warranty runs out in Oct. 2010, then your system was probably assembled around Oct. 2007. You can also look at the TYPE label on the bottom of your system and the XX/XX after the S/N is the manufacturing date, in the format YY/MM. Looking around online, it appears that Nvidia changed their assembly procedure around July 2008.

sl8763 wrote:I am assuming that they will merely replace the motherboard - will this decrease my chances of the Nvidia failure in the future?

I would say that it's unknown, but I would hope that the repair depot is aware of the problem and not install a board which might possibly come back and bite them again. Maybe you could ask for an Intel-based motherboard instead.

Is the failure rate on T61s really considered to be *extremely* high? I guess this is pretty much the same thing as we T4x users experience when it comes to the "T4x loose GPU" issue. Or is this a different kind of failure, affecting the internals of the chip, and not the chip becoming physically loose from the board?

Anyway, your description of your "fear" regarding your T61, reminds me of what I experinenced when I bought my T42. I wasn't aware of the loose GPU problem before I bought the T42, and was kind of disappointed about the whole thing, expecting I would have a failing laptop within a short time. But I realized, like rkawakami says above, that relying on fourm postings can be misleading. We only hear about the ones that fail, and not about the thousands and thousands of laptops out there that works and will continue working for a long time. Their owners never come here, unless they have a special interest in the Thinkpads, like we have.

I haven't experienced any problems with any of my T4x machines (Knock wood) but when I upgraded to the T6x generation this summer, I chose a T60 over a T61 partly because of the Nvidia issue.

It certainly is!!!

Quickly send it to me for defusing!

I sure wouldn't mind having a new toy!

Thanks for the replies, all. rkawakami, you were absolutely right about the manufacture date - does seem to be October 2007. I agree with you and Norway Pad that it's difficult to gauge the likelihood of something happening based on the skewed nature of problem reports on the Internet. Back when IBM used to manufacture the Deskstar line of hard drives, I remember a certain batch was extremely prone to failure, and many people had theirs die suddenly - but the one I had worked happily for many years until it finally gave out.

Norway Pad wrote:Is the failure rate on T61s really considered to be *extremely* high? I guess this is pretty much the same thing as we T4x users experience when it comes to the "T4x loose GPU" issue. Or is this a different kind of failure, affecting the internals of the chip, and not the chip becoming physically loose from the board?

I believe it is a problem with the GPU itself.

http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/T61-and-pri ... td-p/46469

When I talk to Lenovo about the headphone jack repair, I will be sure to mention this potential problem (which should be known to them by now) and see what they can do about giving me a mobo with a different video card. I appreciate the help!

After doing a bit more reading, it seems like it is to my advantage to wait until the warranty is close to expiring before invoking the repair for the headphone jack. It seems that the replacement boards carry a 3-month warranty, so it would be silly to have concurrent coverage if I sent it in right now.

I have the NVS 140. No issues so far.

I'm just putting an article together about the Nvidia GPU issue, which should be posted in a few days.

For those who don't know me, I run Reflow Repairs in the UK where we do GPU repairs.

The problem is that the chip itself comes apart due to poor design and selection of materials, so even if it is heated and is "cured", it doesn't get away from the inherent design flaws.

We are seeing many HP DV series laptops especially with the faulty Nvidia chip, but only a couple of T6x's which must be good news for Thinkpad owners.

Once we've heated the chip and rebonded it again, I suggest that the chip run is then made to run as cool as possible after it's repaired, and we recommend a couple of things:

1. That the latest BIOS updates and Lenovo GPU driver updates are applied.

2. To underclock the GPU. use at your own risk!
This can be done (certainly for XP and I think Vista and Win7). When the driver is installed (in XP) it usually also installs Powermizer a battery / GPU optimiser program.
There are a couple of apps which allow you to underclock the chip based on Powermizer - Powermizer Manager, and Powermizer Switch - use at your own risk!.

It would be helpful if a few people could try either of these and see if it does reduce the GPU temperature with little degradation in video performance.

sl8763 wrote:<snip> Back when IBM used to manufacture the Deskstar line of hard drives, I remember a certain batch was extremely prone to failure, and many people had theirs die suddenly - but the one I had worked happily for many years until it finally gave out.

Those were known as "DeathStar" drives .