Thinkpads Forum

Hi, I'm new here, and new with ThinkPads too. I've been looking for an used laptop to buy, and I've decided on a ThinkPad because it's reliability and Linux compatibility. I was going to buy a certain R61, but someone was faster than me. Now I have several options.

I was going buy this one:
T60 CoreDuo T2600 2.13 GHz
1gb RAM (DDR2 sodimm)
100gb HDD
15,4" SXGA+ TFT (1400x1050)
ATI Radeon X1400
for 380 (520$) And as I understand, the computers are a tad more expensive here than in US for example (I live in Finland btw).

I'm intending to install Debian (probably with XFCE) on it, and was thinking of getting 2gb more RAM. I was also going to buy a SSD (32gb-64gb), where to but my OS and apps. Now the reason why I'm writing in past tense is because I found out that Core Duo doesn't support SATA2 SSD (does that mean it won't work at all or that I can't use it to it's full ability?). I'm not sure how much better SATA2 is than SATA1, but I'm not so certain anymore as what I should get.

At this point it might be good to tell you what I'd be using the laptop for. Well, mostly for school stuff, word processing and stuff. I'd also be downloading quite a bit of... stuff (no, not porn). And I would also download torrents and watch videos (movies, youtube, videos) and listen to music, and surfing in internet. So would it be a lot better to be able to use SATA2 SSD? Also, which of these (all?) are 32bit systems? What does it really matter if it's 32bit or 64bit (I don't really mind a 32bit OS)?

Here are two other options:

Intel Core2Duo T5600 1.83 GHz (2Mb L2 cache)
1gb RAM (ddr2 sodimm)
80gb HDD
15" XGA TFT 1024x768
Intel video card (945?)
for 360€

Intel Core2Duo T7200 2.0 GHz
1gb RAM (DDR2 sodimm)
80gb HDD
15.4" WXGA TFT 1280x800
Intel 945 video card
for 390€ ("like new" it says, and it's a shop with good reputation)

I liked the first one for it's video card and wide screen (and I read somewhere that SXGA+ TFT is the way to go for 15.4", which I of course blindly trust), but it's CoreDuo and the other two are Core2Duo. The 80gb HDD is a minus (not that 100gb is that much better), but I might consider buying bigger one if it doesn't cost too much.

Oh, here's one more:
Intel Core 2 Duo T7200 2,00GHz L2 4Mb
RAM 2048Mb
HDD 100Gb
14,1" SXGA+ 1400x1050
ATI X1400
for 365€

But if I'm going to be watching movies and such (even though just a little) is 14" going to be too small?

So I would greatly appreciate if I could get some advice as to which I should buy. I'm also pretty much a noob in this, as you might have noticed, I'd also appreciate any other advice you might see relevant.

EDIT: 64bit allowed for RAM over 4gb, didn't it? How important that is? How do I know if it's 64bit or 32bit CPU? Upgrading the CPU is probably a bit costly, so is it worthwhile to use such money on such an old hardware?

If you're not a gamer or CAD user (i.e. you don't need a dedicated GPU), I'd get a T60 with the GMA 950. It'll get better battery life, and Linux support is much better (AMD's drivers aren't anywhere near as nice.)

So I should go with the T7200 with GMA 950 (it's model 6369-69G). That's 64 bit, isn't it? How much RAM do you suggest I get at the beginning? And what kind of SSD should I get for it?

Well I have a T60 model 2007 (14.1 in SXGA 1400x1050 pixels). Watching movies is great (no individual pixels seen - a 14 in display subtends about the same angle at your eye as does something like a 6 foot + wide TV at 'wall' distance). Since T60s can only 'see' about 3 Gb memory due to chipset limitations a 64 bit OS is meaningless. I run Ubuntu 10.04 on my T60 and it runs with no problems whatsoever.

hakkyo wrote:So I should go with the T7200 with GMA 950 (it's model 6369-69G). That's 64 bit, isn't it? How much RAM do you suggest I get at the beginning? And what kind of SSD should I get for it?

IIRC the T7200 is indeed 64-bit. Given a limit of the T60's chipset, it can't address > 3GB of RAM -- but there are still a few benefits to be had by going with a 64-bit OS. My suggestion is to get 3GB/4GB of RAM, and go with the amd64 version of your distro of choice.

As far as SSDs go, I'd recommend the X25-M (or, if you have the cash, X25-E) by Intel. They're not the cheapest, and they're not the fastest (although they're definitely up there), but they're pretty power efficient, have a very good track record, and are generally well respected. If you're feeling more adventuresome, you can go for the Micron/Crucial C300 (very fast, but not a "proven" controller) or a drive with a SandForce chipset (which I don't recommend, given that both SandForce-based drives I've had have died quickly and dramatically.)

X25-E is out of my budget. There's write speed of 70Mb/s on the X25-M, but 145Mb/s on Kingston SSDNow V100, SATA II, 2.5". Of course I'd like to get a SSD which is reliable and lasts, but Kingston offers twice the writing speed, and Corsair and OCZ offer more than triple. It does seem to me that OCZ and Corsair are way lower quality, but what about Kingston? Also, what's the real difference between 70Mb/s and 145Mb/s speeds on SSD compared to no SSD at all?

Are there any dis-advances to 64bit OS? I read somewhere that Flash videos don't work in it, but is this still true? Anything else I should know about it?

So based on this I'd be going with Core2Duo T7200 2.0 GHz 15.4" WXGA with 3gb RAM (original 1gb plus new 2gb—I'm asking a new one from where I'm buying the laptop), Intel X25-M SSD and AMD64 Debian.

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I just discovered a R61 from a private seller:

Intel2 Duo T8300 2,4 GHz
1 Gb RAM DDR2 SO-DIMM
14.1" WXGA (1280 x 800)
Intel Graphics Media Accelerator X3100
80 Gb HDD
for 220€

This is considerably cheaper. How good is the screen and video card compared to 15.4" WXGA TFT and Intel 945? I'm a bit wary since it's a private seller, but I just sent an email inquiring about the quality, reasons to sell, defects etc.

What's the general difference between T60 and R61, and the difference between these two specific models? It seems that the R61 is better, but it's not T series, so I'm not so sure. Also, what are more likely to be in need to replacement in the R61 model (if I buy it from a private seller), and is the price alright considering the possibility. Of course, if the screen is broken or something like that, I'll try to return the laptop.

T61 and R61 are basically the same system. The R61 is a little bit thicker and heavier than its T61 counterpart.
R61 does not have the 'rubberised' titanium-reinforced lid, but a hard (ABS plastic) lid.
I find the R61 actually a more rugged (AND cheaper) version of the T61.
R61 usually has Firewire/1394, and the T61 does not.
Apart from some case parts, all other parts can be exchanged between them (but watch out for 1394).
There's also a cheap, educational model R61e, which cannot be used in a dock.

RealBlackStuff wrote:R61 does not have the 'rubberised' titanium-reinforced lid, but a hard (ABS plastic) lid.

Surprisingly, not true! The 14.1" WS R61 has the exact same rubberized finish as the 14.1" WS T61. You can use the exact same part on either machine (only the decal differs - T Series/R Series). In fact, the lid is actually a rubberized finish on a very thin plastic skin that is clipped to the LCD roll cage. It's difficult to tell them apart from even a foot away!

You can swap LCD assemblies between those models, only the lowers are different.

The R61, if priced lower, is a great deal because it is only 1/8" thicker. Another significant difference is that the R61 uses UltraBay Enhanced versus UltraBay Slim drives. Which means that you can actually use a Blue-Ray drive with an R61!

The R61 15.4" WS models are much thicker than the 15.4" T61 WS. They do not have the rubberized top cover. However, they are nice, solid machines, too.

While there is a 14.1" 4:3 LCD T61, there is no R61 counterpart.

Overall, compared to the T60 line, the T61/R61 is faster, has many great CPU upgrade options and can use more than 3GB of RAM (which is great for Win 7, etc.) My daily work machine is a 15.4" T61 w/WSXGA+.

Hello , everyone
I 'm new here , I'm from China
T60 is now thought to be the most steady and most popular used laptop in China .
The price with T7200/1G/100G/X1400/15.1 IPS UXGA is about 400 $
The configuration with T2500/1G/100G/X1400 15.1 IPS UXGA is about 350 $
but sometimes the heat of T60 is a bit high , so you should clean the CPU fan at least once a year
yeah , many people choose T60 because of its 4:3 screen, especially the wide-angle 15.1 UXGA
I also very like the 4:3 screen, i think it is plain and square ,ha ha
now I give you the most professional website for used laptop (especially Thinkpad) in China.
there you can see many many disscussion and sharing about Thinkpad , of course if you understand chinese
http://www.51nb.com/
and I'm just a junior . I very yearn for American. So I very sincerely to make friends with you I just register a msn, that is dswthink@hotmail.com
pleasure to make friesds with you

Well, I must say that's not very helpful. Besides I'm not American (thank God), so I supposed your post doesn't even concern me.

Anyways, I'm still waiting an answer for my inquiry about this model:

R61 Intel Core2Duo T8300 2.4 GHz
1Gb RAM DDR2 SO-DIMM
14.1" WXGA (1280 x 800)
Intel Graphics Media Accelerator X3100
80Gb HDD
for 220€

My second option is:

T60 Intel Core2Duo T5600 1.83 GHz
2Gb RAM DDR2 sodimm
14.1" SXGA+ TFT (1400x1050)
Intel 945GM
500Gb new HDD
for 440€

The SXGA+ screen is a big plus and I'd choose that one were it not twice the price of the R61.

So how much RAM does either of them support? I'd buy at least 1x2gb more for the R61 and possibly for T60 also. How do I know if the R61/T60 supports a specific module? I'm probably going for 80gb Intel X-25M SSD for either of them. What kind of physical qualities do they need to fit a laptop? Do they fit in when there's already a HDD in place?

If I get the R61 (with 80gb HDD), I'll probably also buy it a new hard drive anywhere from 250gb and up (if it's really good, and the bigger ones are a lot more expencive, then I might go for less). Do R61 and T60 support SATA2? Again which sizes fit a laptop? And which drive would you suggest for me considering I have my OS and apps on the SSD? Or wait, do the SSD and HDD both fit inside? Would it be more wise to buy and external hard drive instead?

I'm sorry for all the questions, I'm now especially good with computers (even worse with laptops).

Well, I think thinkloverCH's post nice, positive and interesting. From the perspective of the OP, perhaps off topic. Welcome thinkloverCH, and I must say I am very impressed with your English. I don't know a word of any Chinese dialect, to my knowledge!

I have the same machine just described by underclocker as his every day machine. Just got it used (looks practically new!) a few days ago and plan to upgrade it to 4GB, 640GB, Windows 7 64bit Ultimate shortly.

I'm tapping on my T60 w/ Intel GMA950 graphics that I've had since November 2006 and a 3rd Thinkpad (T60) should arrive in a matter of days.

OP in Finland, I think you should try to not get too fancy with the graphics, as stated the models with discrete graphics (such as x1400 ATI) are much tougher on your battery time. If you don't need it, you're better off with weaker graphics solutions (such as the GMA950). I think the Intel x3100 graphics are also better. The screen in my T61, WSXGA+, if you can get it, is especially good for movies (WS) and is high resolution, if that matters to you. I'm used to 1450x1050, so in a wide screen I wanted the WSXGA+, which has even more pixels (1680x1050).

I don't have the answers to most of your questions, but can tell you that it doesn't make sense putting more than 3GB RAM in the T60. It will take 4GB but only recognize 3GB. The R61 will probably recognize up to 8GB. I'm curious about your other questions, hadn't considered an SSD in my Thinkpads, want to know the ins and outs.

Concerning those last two machines you mention, I think you should keep looking. You will find a better price if you're patient, also a machine you have some real confidence is right for you.

I was just referring to ThinkloverCH's choice of thread for his post.

First of all I'd like to refer anyone reading this to my last post, where there is plenty of questions I don't want to go unnoticed.

I'd like you to consider that here in Finland we don't have nearly as many ThinkPads as in United States (even the population is a bit above 5 million), so the costs are bigger and the choices are fewer.

Is there X61's with 14" screens?

X61s
Intel Core 2 Duo L7300 ULV(?) 1,40GHz L2 4Mb
RAM 2048Mb
HDD 80Gb
Intel X3100
14,1" XGA 1024x768
+ dock.st.w.DVD/CD RW
for 345€

I find this a pretty good deal, though I'd like it with bigger resolution. One thing that I'm confused about though is that I had no idea there were X61's with 14" screens, and I can't find info about them either. This one's sold at an actual company. But if it really is 14", the price seems okay since it even comes with the docking station. Then there's almost identical X61 (not X61s) with 2Ghz processor at exactly the same price and also with the docking station. Which of these would be better? What's the difference between X61 and X61s?

I've read that X61 heats up a lot. Is there anything to do about it? Does it really even matter that much? I'd also like to know about the differences between a T61 and a X61. I've just found that X61 is smaller, since it's 12" (but this one doesn't appear to be), but is there any other differences? Are they of the same quality?

There are no 14" X series so it's probably a typo...

All X2x, X3x, X4x and X6x models are 12" and the screens have a resolution of 1024x768. There are some X61Ts with a SXGA+ screens (1400x1050) and you can mod other X6s machines with this type of screen as well.

hakkyo wrote:I'd like you to consider that here in Finland we don't have nearly as many ThinkPads as in United States (even the population is a bit above 5 million), so the costs are bigger and the choices are fewer.

FYI, quite a few forum members from the U.S. are willing to ship internationally, which even with increased shipping costs, would still save you quite a bit.

hakkyo wrote:Besides I'm not American (thank God), so I supposed your post doesn't even concern me.

Although after this statement, a few less may be willing to do so. (Perhaps, you meant it purely due to your love for Finland, it's hard to tell.)

hakkyo wrote:X25-E is out of my budget. There's write speed of 70Mb/s on the X25-M, but 145Mb/s on Kingston SSDNow V100, SATA II, 2.5". Of course I'd like to get a SSD which is reliable and lasts, but Kingston offers twice the writing speed, and Corsair and OCZ offer more than triple. It does seem to me that OCZ and Corsair are way lower quality, but what about Kingston? Also, what's the real difference between 70Mb/s and 145Mb/s speeds on SSD compared to no SSD at all?

Those are sequential write speeds. Manufacturers love them because they're nice, big-looking numbers.

Unfortunately, they're really not that significant for real-world desktop usage. Random 4K reads/writes are what matter for that -- and that's something that Intel's drives are exceptionally good at.

Are there any dis-advances to 64bit OS? I read somewhere that Flash videos don't work in it, but is this still true? Anything else I should know about it?

I don't have Flash on any of my machines, so I have no idea. Flash is generally quite buggy though, so it wouldn't surprise me. As far as desktop Linux is concerned, Flash is the single buggiest piece of software in common use.

hakkyo wrote:I was just referring to ThinkloverCH's choice of thread for his post.

He was bound to feel like a fish out of water posting here, whatever thread he posted in. Yes, he hijacked your thread (however, I thought his observations interesting), and I understand your impatience, particularly because you have so many questions (and yes, they're not all getting answered, which happens when you ask 6 questions at once!) and buying a Thinkpad is so confusing when you don't "know the ropes" (American idiom!). Again, I urge you unless you have a pressing need to buy a machine very soon, to be patient, do your homework and try hard to determine why you would want one machine over another. I agree that you might do well to buy other than locally. I haven't checked out buying in these forums, myself. Some ebay sellers will ship internationally and you might get a better deal than buying in Finland or Europe. Ebay has a lot of Lenovo laptops for sale. If you have questions, you can ask them of the seller. I like what one buyer said who has bought several used Thinkpads. He said that he's generally had better luck with refurbished units.

T60/R60 can take max. 4GB RAM.
Due to a chip limitation in these series, no more than ~3.25GB will be recognized, even when running a 64-bit CPU and OS.

T61/R61 can take max. 8GB RAM (although not all models AFAIK).

Again, due to another chip limitation, neither the 60 nor the 61 models can run faster than SATA I.
Recently someone posted about modifying a machine and getting SATA II speed out of it.

IMHO this is irrelevant if you plan on getting an SSD.

I'm also planning to keep a hard drive, or if they can't fit the laptop together, then get external hard drive. The SSD would be only for the OS and applications.

But does that mean I'll also need an SATA1 SSD? I was recommended Intel X-25M by ThinkRob, but I think it's SATA2 model.

And to answer to Muse: I need to have the laptop one month from now. Also if I need to return it or something, it would be a lot more practical to have bought it somewhere in here Finland. And concerning ThinkloverCH's post, I was just saying that jokingly, I don't really mind.

And thank you for all the help. You've all been very helpful and I've gotten a much better picture as to what kind of laptop I should get myself.

EDIT: How easy is it to upgrade R and T series laptops? For some upgrades I'd probably need to upgrade the processor, but would I need to change the whole motherboard too? How wise is it upgrading the laptop like that (and how possible)? Could you replace gradually pretty much all the part to new ones, and would it be wiser (and cheaper) to buy a new one (or newer used one) than to upgrade it gradually like that?

EDIT2: I'm thinking like this because I'd rather invest my money on a desktop, and not buy new laptops ever two years. But my laptop would still need to be fairly good, since most of the time I don't have access to my desktop (at the moment only about once a month, plus on longer holidays.

Well, I followed the link in a post from a forum member yesterday to Lenovo's page for new laptops and took a look at what I think is their top of the line series. The machine shown was ~$2600 as is and it included a 320GB 5400RPM HD, a 2GHz CPU (IIRC), 4GB RAM (IIRC), I was underwhelmed, especially because I just bought a refurbished T61 that with the RAM and HD upgrades I am about to administer cost me around $530 (it will have 2.4MHz Core 2 Duo CPU, Intel x3100 graphics, 15.4" WSXGA+ 1680X1050 screen, 640GB 7200RPM HD, DVDRW/CDRW, Wireless abgn, built in SD card reader, 4GB RAM, I can upgrade that later to 8GB). So, new would cost at around 5 times as much. I don't think I'm giving up that much. I sure don't expect the machine to need upgrading or replacement in 2 years. I'm pleased with my 4 year old T60, actually. I just needed another machine because I can't be lugging the T60 all over the house all the time. Generally, the batteries will stay in the refrigerator (at ~40% charge for longevity).

hakkyo wrote: But does that mean I'll also need an SATA1 SSD? I was recommended Intel X-25M by ThinkRob, but I think it's SATA2 model.

No. I have an X25-M in my T60 as I type this.

EDIT: How easy is it to upgrade R and T series laptops? For some upgrades I'd probably need to upgrade the processor, but would I need to change the whole motherboard too? How wise is it upgrading the laptop like that (and how possible)? Could you replace gradually pretty much all the part to new ones, and would it be wiser (and cheaper) to buy a new one (or newer used one) than to upgrade it gradually like that?

It's easy to upgrade the CPU if you're careful and follow the HMM. Your upgrade options will be limited by the socket type. Still, you can get a reasonably fast Core 2 Duo in the machine without spending too much.

EDIT2: I'm thinking like this because I'd rather invest my money on a desktop, and not buy new laptops ever two years. But my laptop would still need to be fairly good, since most of the time I don't have access to my desktop (at the moment only about once a month, plus on longer holidays.

My personal approach (which obviously has different constraints/priorities than you) is the following:

1) Laptop for development work (primarily kernel dev.). Fast CPU, tons of RAM, fast disk. GPU and weight don't matter much. Battery life should be at least 2-3 hours, but past that anything's fine. Currently an X200, pending acquisition of something better.

2) Ultraportable. My day-to-day laptop. Should be light enough to take to and from the office every day. Battery life should be 3+ hours. Keyboard quality is critical. GPU, and CPU don't matter. Should have an SSD for shock resistance and power-efficient GPU, but the performance of these two components don't matter. Currently an X300.

3) Workstation. My desktop. Used for power-hungry development work. Currently an IntelliStation Z Pro (dual Xeon 3.2 Ghz) with 4GB of ECC RAM, RAID-5 (plus an Ultra320 boot disk). GPU is of no concern, but everything else is. Will later be upgraded to the final IBM-produced IntelliStation Z Pro (or perhaps an xSeries server.)

4) Gaming console(s). The reason why GPU performance is irrelevant. Cheap, produces good graphics, but (sadly) increasingly rarely used the more I work...

I tried the "one ThinkPad to rule them all) approach a couple of times, but I never found myself comfortable with the compromises that I had to make.