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HDD clicking on X41T - cache problem on the drive?
HDD clicking on X41T - cache problem on the drive?
Via jkontherun.com:
http://www.tabletpcbuzz.com/forum/topic ... hichpage=1
Interesting discussion on the problems that some have been having with clicking 1.8" hard drives. Some are thinking that it has to do with a 0kb data cache on the drive rather than that stated 2MB. Some have been putting in calls to IBM/Lenovo already. Worth a read.
I might run Drive Fitness Test on the new HDD on my X to see what the cache is.
http://www.tabletpcbuzz.com/forum/topic ... hichpage=1
Interesting discussion on the problems that some have been having with clicking 1.8" hard drives. Some are thinking that it has to do with a 0kb data cache on the drive rather than that stated 2MB. Some have been putting in calls to IBM/Lenovo already. Worth a read.
I might run Drive Fitness Test on the new HDD on my X to see what the cache is.
X40 (2371-6EM) w/ 768 RAM
XPP SP2
DLINK DI-614+
XPP SP2
DLINK DI-614+
This is a VERY interesting issue. I have never thought about that. I was sure the HDD has a bit of cache. (I'll try the test program ASAP).
But I have some questions:
1. Does IBM/Lenovo have any responsibility to replace these drives? Is it a mass-defect or just a known property of these HDD?
2. Is it a problem of the tablet series only, or all X4x series? AFAIK X40/X41 use this HD too.
Very strange, very interesting. If it is solved, it may really improve the HD performance.
But I have some questions:
1. Does IBM/Lenovo have any responsibility to replace these drives? Is it a mass-defect or just a known property of these HDD?
2. Is it a problem of the tablet series only, or all X4x series? AFAIK X40/X41 use this HD too.
Very strange, very interesting. If it is solved, it may really improve the HD performance.
X41 Tablet 18666TU 1.5GHz CPU, 60GB HDD, 1.5GB RAM, DVD-CDRW
Ok. Done the test, and I have 0KB cache size too.
On tabletpcbuzz one wrote that lenovo are aware to this problem and replace the HDD if you ask for, and another one wrote the lenovo rep. told him that the HD ticks and no-cache is just fine and should be like that.
One there even got new HDD and says it doesn't tick.
What are you saying?
On tabletpcbuzz one wrote that lenovo are aware to this problem and replace the HDD if you ask for, and another one wrote the lenovo rep. told him that the HD ticks and no-cache is just fine and should be like that.
One there even got new HDD and says it doesn't tick.
What are you saying?
X41 Tablet 18666TU 1.5GHz CPU, 60GB HDD, 1.5GB RAM, DVD-CDRW
i don't think that this is the cause of the problem. if the disks really had no cache you would notice this performance wise. the performance doesn't seem to be that worse. also various reports indicate that the clicking noise disappears if you disable the power managment on the drive (e.g. see the section about the clicking harddrive on http://demod.foosel.net/linux/thinkpad_x41) - so this seems to be the noise of the drive parking the head.
by the way: according to thinkwiki.org the X41 includes a SATA harddisk (while the X40 includes a PATA disk). is this really a SATA disk (i thought that the X40 and X41 are using the same disks?). or is it just a SATA controller with a SATA-PATA bridge for the PATA disk?
/gst
by the way: according to thinkwiki.org the X41 includes a SATA harddisk (while the X40 includes a PATA disk). is this really a SATA disk (i thought that the X40 and X41 are using the same disks?). or is it just a SATA controller with a SATA-PATA bridge for the PATA disk?
/gst
That's very interesting, can anyone with X40 and X41 confirm this?gst wrote:by the way: according to thinkwiki.org the X41 includes a SATA harddisk (while the X40 includes a PATA disk). is this really a SATA disk (i thought that the X40 and X41 are using the same disks?). or is it just a SATA controller with a SATA-PATA bridge for the PATA disk?
Two HDDs listed in the X41 HMM are the Hitachi DK14FA-20 and the DK13FA-40. These appear to be part of the C4K40 series, which are 1.8" ATA-5 (read: PATA) drives.
So, it looks like it's an adaptor chip...
So, it looks like it's an adaptor chip...
Current: X201 (i5-540M, 8 GiB, 160 GB), 365XD (120 MHz, 72 MiB, 6.4 GB, 4x CD-ROM, 10.4" TFT)
Past: T61p 15.0" QXGA, T60p 15.0" QXGA, X61 Tablet SXGA+, R51e 14.1" XGA, X21
Past: T61p 15.0" QXGA, T60p 15.0" QXGA, X61 Tablet SXGA+, R51e 14.1" XGA, X21
Can someone with an X40 or X41 (non-tablet) run the hard drive test and see if their hard disk has a cache?
The Drive Fitness Test can be found here http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/download.htm
You'll need to make a bootdisk or boot CD
The Drive Fitness Test can be found here http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/download.htm
You'll need to make a bootdisk or boot CD
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FWIW, my X41 tablet with the 60gig drive (as well as the spare drive i just got for it) both show zero cache..
no clicking at all but it does have the jumpy mouse pointer for a minute or two after a cold boot..
which is indicative of something slow and in this case the slow thing is the HDD..
interesting thread in tabletPCbuzz forum..
SUBSEQUENT EDIT:
in looking at the TABook and the hitachi web site i see NOTHING relating to a cache on the 1.8 inch drives OR the two 2.5 inch drive spec sheets i looked at..
now we ALL know that there is a cache on the 2.5 inch travelstar drives and what idiot would design a 4200RPM drive without a cache..??
so it appears to be a problem..
and thinking about this and other threads like this (fan noise, heat issues and the like) this might be why ibm and now lenovo do not like me..
no clicking at all but it does have the jumpy mouse pointer for a minute or two after a cold boot..
which is indicative of something slow and in this case the slow thing is the HDD..
interesting thread in tabletPCbuzz forum..
SUBSEQUENT EDIT:
in looking at the TABook and the hitachi web site i see NOTHING relating to a cache on the 1.8 inch drives OR the two 2.5 inch drive spec sheets i looked at..
now we ALL know that there is a cache on the 2.5 inch travelstar drives and what idiot would design a 4200RPM drive without a cache..??
so it appears to be a problem..
and thinking about this and other threads like this (fan noise, heat issues and the like) this might be why ibm and now lenovo do not like me..
Last edited by BillMorrow on Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bill Morrow, kept by parrots & cockatoos
Sysop - forum.thinkpads.com
*
She was not what you would call refined,
She was not what you would call unrefined,
She was the type of person who kept a parrot.
~~~Mark Twain~~~
Sysop - forum.thinkpads.com
*
She was not what you would call refined,
She was not what you would call unrefined,
She was the type of person who kept a parrot.
~~~Mark Twain~~~
my drive was manufactured in july 2005 too and i don't have any problems with the mousepointer (at least i didn't notice them). i'm currently not able to use the hard drive test as i don't have any external drive to boot from here. i can check it in a couple of days.DavidNZ wrote:X40 here with a HDD that was manufactured in July 2005 (original was removed and returned 3 weeks ago due to early signs of failure).
2048kb cache according to DFT.
Anyone with a 41T run the DFT?
an occasional clicking is still there when using the drive but i don't think that it is disturbing.
/gst
update: i just tested it with hdtune (http://www.hdtune.com/) which you can use in windows without having to reboot.
the buffer is displayed with a size of 0kb. the smart status shows failed on "seek error rate". (this doesn't seem to be a real problem as others have reported it too and CHC shows the value as OK).
DavidNZ: what cache size is displayed by hdtune for your drive? does it show the smart error too?
/gst
the buffer is displayed with a size of 0kb. the smart status shows failed on "seek error rate". (this doesn't seem to be a real problem as others have reported it too and CHC shows the value as OK).
DavidNZ: what cache size is displayed by hdtune for your drive? does it show the smart error too?
/gst
http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/c4k40/c4k40.htm:BillMorrow wrote:SUBSEQUENT EDIT:
in looking at the TABook and the hitachi web site i see NOTHING relating to a cache on the 1.8 inch drives OR the two 2.5 inch drive spec sheets i looked at..
"Data buffer (MB): 2" but with the note: "Space reserved for firmware".
the C4K60 sheet also lists 2 MB cache but with another note: "Upper 128KB reserved for firmware"
/gst
Hitachi page for the exact HDD model in my system:
http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/c ... k60_ce.htm
It is very clear, in this page, that this HDD should has 2MB buffer.
I'll try to contact IBM support here. Not sure they'll know what I'm talking about...
http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/c ... k60_ce.htm
It is very clear, in this page, that this HDD should has 2MB buffer.
I'll try to contact IBM support here. Not sure they'll know what I'm talking about...
X41 Tablet 18666TU 1.5GHz CPU, 60GB HDD, 1.5GB RAM, DVD-CDRW
i don't see any SATA device either when using the windows device manager, but i see it when booting linux. have a look at http://thinkwiki.org/wiki/SATA_and_Linux for more information about the SATA bridge (there are also several threads here on thinkwiki about it).Yotam wrote:Are you sure about that?
In windows device manager the HD appears under Intel Ultra ATA Controller, which appears on the main system root (when sorted by connection). There is no SATA device or bridge. Shouldn't it appear there?
/gst
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so much for scanning for "cache" at 5am..gst wrote:"Data buffer (MB): 2" but with the note: "Space reserved for firmware".
the C4K60 sheet also lists 2 MB cache but with another note: "Upper 128KB reserved for firmware"
of course, "BUFFER!"
Bill Morrow, kept by parrots & cockatoos
Sysop - forum.thinkpads.com
*
She was not what you would call refined,
She was not what you would call unrefined,
She was the type of person who kept a parrot.
~~~Mark Twain~~~
Sysop - forum.thinkpads.com
*
She was not what you would call refined,
She was not what you would call unrefined,
She was the type of person who kept a parrot.
~~~Mark Twain~~~
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my X41T uses the IDE ATA parallel interface..gst wrote: don't assume that the output of the hdtune (or any other utility) is right. the x40/41 series does use a PATA harddisk which is connected to a PATA->SATA bridge which is connected to a SATA controller.
maybe it's the fault of the bridge that the query on the buffer size returns the wrong result.
from the spec sheet at HGST website the SATA drives use a ZIF socket and come only in 20gig and 30gig..
not 40gig or the 60gig in my tablet..
they MIGHT use a bridge internally (in the X41) but i have not yet (this moment) looked for it..
i DID compare (using HD Tune) the 60gig 7200 in the T43p and the 60gig 4200 in the tablet and roughly, the 4200 is about 3/5 as fast as the 7200 drive.. ?!
Bill Morrow, kept by parrots & cockatoos
Sysop - forum.thinkpads.com
*
She was not what you would call refined,
She was not what you would call unrefined,
She was the type of person who kept a parrot.
~~~Mark Twain~~~
Sysop - forum.thinkpads.com
*
She was not what you would call refined,
She was not what you would call unrefined,
She was the type of person who kept a parrot.
~~~Mark Twain~~~
yep - that's what i wrote above ;)BillMorrow wrote:my X41T uses the IDE ATA parallel interface..gst wrote: don't assume that the output of the hdtune (or any other utility) is right. the x40/41 series does use a PATA harddisk which is connected to a PATA->SATA bridge which is connected to a SATA controller.
maybe it's the fault of the bridge that the query on the buffer size returns the wrong result.
from the spec sheet at HGST website the SATA drives use a ZIF socket and come only in 20gig and 30gig..
not 40gig or the 60gig in my tablet..
they MIGHT use a bridge internally (in the X41) but i have not yet (this moment) looked for it..
i'm pretty sure that they include a SATA controller and the bridge as:
1) i see the SATA controller when using Linux
2) http://thinkwiki.org/wiki/SATA_and_Linux says the same
this means even if some other manufactorer produces 1.8" drives with an ATA interface at a later date we are still stuck with the Hitachi disks because of the same SATA-bridge problem which occurs with the T43 too (2010 BIOS error + corruption).
/gst
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i loaded HD tune on my assistants X40, yesterday, and i'll run the speed test today..
FWIW, her 40gig drive has, or shows, a 2k buffer.. (cache?!)
though i would not put TOO much faith in HD Tune..
nice utility and nice example of freeware.. but how accurate is it..
will load sisoft sandra later and see what IT shows..
FWIW, her 40gig drive has, or shows, a 2k buffer.. (cache?!)
though i would not put TOO much faith in HD Tune..
nice utility and nice example of freeware.. but how accurate is it..
will load sisoft sandra later and see what IT shows..
Bill Morrow, kept by parrots & cockatoos
Sysop - forum.thinkpads.com
*
She was not what you would call refined,
She was not what you would call unrefined,
She was the type of person who kept a parrot.
~~~Mark Twain~~~
Sysop - forum.thinkpads.com
*
She was not what you would call refined,
She was not what you would call unrefined,
She was the type of person who kept a parrot.
~~~Mark Twain~~~
I ran a system profile using AIDA32 (www.aida32.hu) and I show a 2MB buffer on my 40GB 1.8" drive.
Then, I went back to my archives and found a report generated when I had my old 1.8" drive (before it was replaced) - it also reported a 2MB buffer.
David
Then, I went back to my archives and found a report generated when I had my old 1.8" drive (before it was replaced) - it also reported a 2MB buffer.
David
X40 (2371-6EM) w/ 768 RAM
XPP SP2
DLINK DI-614+
XPP SP2
DLINK DI-614+
Any word on the benchmarks Bill? I would really like to find out if the drives are indeed missing caches or they're just being reported wrong before I call up IBM and inquire about a new drive. I think performance will be the best indicator at this point.(There should be a huge differnce between a drive with cache and one with none.(Both drives being the same))BillMorrow wrote:i loaded HD tune on my assistants X40, yesterday, and i'll run the speed test today..
FWIW, her 40gig drive has, or shows, a 2k buffer.. (cache?!)
though i would not put TOO much faith in HD Tune..
nice utility and nice example of freeware.. but how accurate is it..
will load sisoft sandra later and see what IT shows..
Here's the original 40GB drive as shipped with my X40, March 2004:
HD Tune: HITACHI_DK13FA-40B Information
Firmware version : 00MCA0B3
Serial number : 2B1484
Capacity : 37.3 GB (~40.0 GB)
Buffer size : 2048 KB
Standard : ATA/ATAPI-0
Supported mode : UDMA Mode 5 (Ultra ATA/100)
Current mode : UDMA Mode 5 (Ultra ATA/100)
S.M.A.R.T : yes
48-bit Address : no
Read Look-Ahead : yes
Write Cache : yes
Host Protected Area : yes
Device Configuration Overlay : yes
Automatic Acoustic Managment : no
Power Managment : yes
Advanced Power Managment : yes
Power-up in Standby : no
Security Mode : yes
Firmware Upgradable : no
HD Tune: HITACHI_DK13FA-40B Information
Firmware version : 00MCA0B3
Serial number : 2B1484
Capacity : 37.3 GB (~40.0 GB)
Buffer size : 2048 KB
Standard : ATA/ATAPI-0
Supported mode : UDMA Mode 5 (Ultra ATA/100)
Current mode : UDMA Mode 5 (Ultra ATA/100)
S.M.A.R.T : yes
48-bit Address : no
Read Look-Ahead : yes
Write Cache : yes
Host Protected Area : yes
Device Configuration Overlay : yes
Automatic Acoustic Managment : no
Power Managment : yes
Advanced Power Managment : yes
Power-up in Standby : no
Security Mode : yes
Firmware Upgradable : no
- Brian
2004: 2371-8EU X40, 1.2 GHz Pentium M, 1 GB, 40 GB, 802.11b/g, 2 x 8-cell
2007: 2623-DDU T60p, 2.0 GHz T2500, 2 GB, 200GB 7200 rpm, 802.11a/b/g, BT, 3 x 9-cell, 15" UXGA FlexView, Adv Mini Dock
2011: 4286-CTO X220, 2.5 GHz i5-2520M, 8 GB, 60GB SSD, 250GB HD
2004: 2371-8EU X40, 1.2 GHz Pentium M, 1 GB, 40 GB, 802.11b/g, 2 x 8-cell
2007: 2623-DDU T60p, 2.0 GHz T2500, 2 GB, 200GB 7200 rpm, 802.11a/b/g, BT, 3 x 9-cell, 15" UXGA FlexView, Adv Mini Dock
2011: 4286-CTO X220, 2.5 GHz i5-2520M, 8 GB, 60GB SSD, 250GB HD
taob wrote:Here's the original 40GB drive as shipped with my X40, March 2004:
HD Tune: HITACHI_DK13FA-40B Information
Firmware version : 00MCA0B3
Serial number : 2B1484
Capacity : 37.3 GB (~40.0 GB)
Buffer size : 2048 KB
Standard : ATA/ATAPI-0
Supported mode : UDMA Mode 5 (Ultra ATA/100)
Current mode : UDMA Mode 5 (Ultra ATA/100)
S.M.A.R.T : yes
48-bit Address : no
Read Look-Ahead : yes
Write Cache : yes
Host Protected Area : yes
Device Configuration Overlay : yes
Automatic Acoustic Managment : no
Power Managment : yes
Advanced Power Managment : yes
Power-up in Standby : no
Security Mode : yes
Firmware Upgradable : no
Could you run the hdtune benchmark on the drive? So far we have several people establishing that they can see the cache on there X40's, but none has run a benchmark to compare performance.
Bill Morrow, I think you have access to both an X40 and an X41T. Can you run some benchmarks or can you just insert the X41T drive into the X40 and see if you can see the cache?(By running drive fitness, etc)
This is getting kind of irritating, I'm asking you X40 owners to help out the X41T users a little....please post benchmarks of your drives.......
Thanks.
This is getting kind of irritating, I'm asking you X40 owners to help out the X41T users a little....please post benchmarks of your drives.......
Thanks.
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