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Don't get ripped off on an SXGA+ screen for your X61/X62

X60/X61 series specific matters only.
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xiphmont
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Don't get ripped off on an SXGA+ screen for your X61/X62

#1 Post by xiphmont » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:56 am

Hi folks, I've recently written a quick blog post I should have written years ago. After several email queries this month, I finally wrote it:

https://xiphmont.dreamwidth.org/90510.html

I'll reproduce it [mildly abridged] here, you can follow the link above for the original post with inline images. The content is harsh but hopefully fair.

~~~~~~

Most 'new' HV121P01-100 SXGA+ screens for sale on ebay, AliExpress, etc, are neither genuine nor new.

The HV121P01-100 is the screen every X60/61/62 ThinkPad modder wants. It's a reasonably high-resolution AFFS (IPS-like) screen originally offered as an option on the X60 tablet, and with a Daylight LED kit, it has excellent brightness and good (though not excellent) color accuracy. They're commonly available on eBay, Alibaba, DHgate, etc.

Except they're not.

A slightly later version of the screen, the HV121P01-101, was an option on the X61 tablet, but it had a fatal flaw. Unlike the earlier version, the -101 was bonded to a glass front-surface using a 'permanent' optical adhesive. This adhesive was not in fact very permanent. It flowed when it got warm, leaving bubbles behind the glass, and a sticky, impenetrable goo all over everything.

Ever get pine sap all over your hands and try to clean it off? Same thing. No really; the optical adhesive is a purified pine tar. Mmm, I do love that Christmas tree smell.

In any case, the HV121P01-101 turned out to be a warranty disaster and there were tons of these screens left over that no one could use.

A few modders got reasonably good at removing the front glass and adhesive through sheer force of will and infinite effort. This task is seriously involved. I tried it. I wasn't patient enough to get better than about a 50% success rate and it sure wasn't worth the time--- especially when you could just buy a -100 version of the screen without the problem.

These days, there are no more cheap -100 screens. Enter Chinese entrepreneurs and a large quantity of similar, unsold -101 screens.

Rather than spending hours of careful mechanical work removing the glass fronts and adhesive from the -101 screens, you can just dump the screens into a big vat of hot solvent. Of the solvents I've tried, xylene is cheap and works well. The solvent dissolves all the adhesive away over a few days, and the glass falls right off. No fuss!

This would be a brilliant solution except for one problem: it messes up the front polarizer film that's also bonded to the glass LCD matrix.

Good polarizers cost more to produce than the glass LCD matrix itself. BOE/Hydis used very nice polarizers on these screens. Removing the adhesive with heat/solvents damages this expensive polarizer.

The damage looks a little like a kind of 'old-timey picture-tube' filter:

large pic WARNING ----> https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/think ... o-crt1.jpg

The above screen was being fed vertical lines for whatever reason, it's the ring of discoloration around the edge I'm talking about. Below is a more subtly damaged screen that wasn't obvious until the backlight got replaced:

medium pic warning ---> https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/think ... o-crt2.jpg

Depending on the exact process, the damage can be subtle or obvious. If the damage isn't 'too bad', the screen is just sold as is, and these screens are definitely out there in the wild (see above). I know a few people who didn't notice (or weren't bothered by it) until installing a brighter backlight that made it more obvious. That's how I got the pics (thanks guys!).

When the polarizer damage is too obvious, the screen rebuilder can strip off the damaged polarizer film and install a new one. Like I said, good polarizers are really expensive, and I will say from personal experience that these rebuilders are, in general, not using good polarizers.

Cheap polarizers make for poor contrast, and cause color shifts at an angle which kind-of negates the whole point of the fancy AFFS screen.

Honest resellers are up-front when the polarizer has been replaced, and the protective plastic over the surface of the new polarizer will still be there when the screen arrives. Maybe you'll get lucky and it'll be a decent one. There's no way to tell ahead of time, but I personally won't bet on it.

The less honest resellers won't tell you, or will claim the screen is all new. Right now, this is also easy to spot!

BOE/Hydis original polarizers are always beveled at the corners:

large pic warning----> https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/think ... 01-100.jpg

Replacement polarizers are not:

large pic warning ----> https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/think ... 01-100.jpg

I suppose dishonest rebuilders will eventually catch onto this trick and begin beveling their edges too, but so far they haven't.

Oh, and it can get worse.

Solvents will also destroy most of the other components in the screen. Some rebuilders carefully separate the parts and only dunk the glass matrices, limiting the damage to the bonded polarizer. Others just dunk the whole [censored] screen and let everything dissolve except for the frame, electronics and matrix. These screens then have to be built up entirely from spare parts.

In short, many of the HV121P01-100 screens you see for sale *don't have a single HV121P01-100 part in them*.

Those stickers that say 'HV121P01-100'? Fake, altered, or transferred from other screens. That closeup of 'HV121P01' stamped into the front frame? Note that it doesn't say '-100' or '-101'.

Conclusion:

Do these rebuilt screens work? Yes. The problem is that many aren't going to be anywhere close to the original performance specs. The contrast will be lower, the brightness low/uneven, the colors poor or unstable, at least relative to the original screen, which was no performance monster to begin with.

Is that still worth ~ $100? You might say yes! The important thing is to know what you're getting and be able to make an informed decision. Otherwise you're playing a lottery and trusting the ticket-seller to tell you if you've won.

Of course, you might get lucky and get a real -100! If you do, let me know, I've not seen one in years, and I'd really like to know where I can get some.

So how do I find a real HV121P01-100?

No guarantees, but look for a few things.

Is the front 'glass' (acrylic on a real -100) still in place?
Is the original digitizer still on the back? It's the rust-and-green flexy circuit board that provides the pen input on the tablet screen.
Does the screen still have its tablet-mounting tabs?
Is any of the frame tape cut, or are the internal diffuser film clips mysteriously missing (probably because the replacement diffuser films don't actually fit properly)?
Is the listing using a stock pic (with a custom watermark) used by ten other resellers? Bad sign.

Not to pick on this specific seller (I doubt they know much about what they're selling), but here's a pic that hits almost all of the red flags all in one ad:

large pic WARNING --> https://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/thinkpad/ad-omgno.jpg

The digitizer is missing, the front acrylic is missing, the clips that hold the internal diffuser films in place are missing, the sealing tape along the bottom of the frame is cut, and the plastic cover with the 'HV121P01-100' sticker and serial number has obviously been transferred from another screen. Best of all, this is a stock pic, or rather, the exact pic is being used by 6 or 7 eBay sellers right now. They care so little about their listing, they're using a pic of a screen that's obviously been rebuilt from parts, not even trying to hide it, and the screen is listed as 'new'.

WELL DONE. I TOTALLY TRUST YOU.

In any case, the best way to screen out sellers is probably just to contact the seller up front and ask specific questions. Most are just resellers, and have no idea what they're selling, but you can at least ask for pics of an actual screen for sale. Any evasion from the seller is a pretty good indication you should walk away.

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Re: Don't get ripped off on an SXGA+ screen for your X61/X62

#2 Post by flyingfishfinger » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:14 am

Interesting. My SXGA+ has the damaged polarizer pattern sometimes (when it gets hot / close the lid with the screen on), but I get a white ring around the edge with that exact shape.

Is that the same or something else? I pulled this from a tablet with everything on it (clips, digitizer, front plate) so I doubt it's a knock-off...

R

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Re: Don't get ripped off on an SXGA+ screen for your X61/X62

#3 Post by xiphmont » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:26 am

flyingfishfinger wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:14 am
Interesting. My SXGA+ has the damaged polarizer pattern sometimes (when it gets hot / close the lid with the screen on), but I get a white ring around the edge with that exact shape.

Is that the same or something else? I pulled this from a tablet with everything on it (clips, digitizer, front plate) so I doubt it's a knock-off...

R
Innnnteresting. And just to be clear a -100? it's from a tablet you bought new, or bought later? I'd love to pop the frame on that and have a close look at it.

[edit: There are probably a number of things that can damage the polarizer. They're generally just light-active organics embedded in the polyester film, and if the tech used is sublimation... I don't know that it is...]

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Re: Don't get ripped off on an SXGA+ screen for your X61/X62

#4 Post by flyingfishfinger » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:58 pm

It was an Ebay acquisition many years ago, but unless someone took the trouble to remove everything, replace the screen and put the digitizer and front plate back on...no idea.

Send me a PM if you're interested in a lid swap / trade and want to inspect this one..

R

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Re: Don't get ripped off on an SXGA+ screen for your X61/X62

#5 Post by xiphmont » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:54 pm

flyingfishfinger wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:58 pm
It was an Ebay acquisition many years ago, but unless someone took the trouble to remove everything, replace the screen and put the digitizer and front plate back on...no idea.
...hmm, well, I always do... (I don't sell on eBay though)
flyingfishfinger wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:58 pm
Send me a PM if you're interested in a lid swap / trade and want to inspect this one..
I'm always interested in more data! Seriously, regardless the reason for the damage, I'd like to see it/study it a bit. PM with what you'd like in trade, or I'll hit you up in a day or two while I'm catching up wth LED kit orders. I have lots of extra NOS parts, though no NOS screens right now (all my screens have been tampered with, either by me or by the original seller).

Cheers,
Monty

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Re: Don't get ripped off on an SXGA+ screen for your X61/X62

#6 Post by fourthree » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:21 am

There goes my dream for an SXGA/QXGA 61 X/T thinkpads.. :(

If I ever do find one, do you do the whole removal + LED installation? It goes against my DIY ethic but experience shows that knowing your limits is more important than hoping to get stuff done right.

By the way, what are your thoughts about the 12.3 UXGA inside an X61? This is the panel http://www.panelook.com/LD123UX1-SMA1_L ... 26101.html but it's slightly larger and it uses MIPI instead of LVDS - quite a bummer. Not sure if it's even possible, honestly.
Dorkstation: T601f
Ultraportable: X61s

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Re: Don't get ripped off on an SXGA+ screen for your X61/X62

#7 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:23 am

fourthree wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:21 am
There goes my dream for an SXGA/QXGA 61 X/T thinkpads.. :(

If I ever do find one, do you do the whole removal + LED installation? It goes against my DIY ethic but experience shows that knowing your limits is more important than hoping to get stuff done right.

By the way, what are your thoughts about the 12.3 UXGA inside an X61? This is the panel http://www.panelook.com/LD123UX1-SMA1_L ... 26101.html but it's slightly larger and it uses MIPI instead of LVDS - quite a bummer. Not sure if it's even possible, honestly.
51NB will find a way. They always find a way.
Probably should be Thinkpad16by10.

Looking For: 386 laptop, IBM or not.

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Re: Don't get ripped off on an SXGA+ screen for your X61/X62

#8 Post by NonesensE » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:56 pm

fourthree wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:21 am
By the way, what are your thoughts about the 12.3 UXGA inside an X61? This is the panel http://www.panelook.com/LD123UX1-SMA1_L ... 26101.html but it's slightly larger and it uses MIPI instead of LVDS - quite a bummer. Not sure if it's even possible, honestly.
I'm on it, but it's not easy. I'm trying to use Lattice Crosslink with the OpenLDI/LVDS to MIPI DSI IP as an adaptor.
Sometimes coming over from the German forum...
X62s 3rd batch, [s]T61[/s] T70 14" 4:3 1st batch

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Re: Don't get ripped off on an SXGA+ screen for your X61/X62

#9 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:42 pm

So are you telling me a seller on eBay selling SXGA+ displays with 60K stars & 99% feedback is a phony?
Probably should be Thinkpad16by10.

Looking For: 386 laptop, IBM or not.

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Re: Don't get ripped off on an SXGA+ screen for your X61/X62

#10 Post by xiphmont » Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:53 pm

Thinkpad4by3 wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:42 pm
So are you telling me a seller on eBay selling SXGA+ displays with 60K stars & 99% feedback is a phony?
I'm telling you *several* of them are selling rebuilt (aka phony) screens, yes.

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Re: Don't get ripped off on an SXGA+ screen for your X61/X62

#11 Post by fourthree » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:21 pm

NonesensE wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:56 pm
I'm on it, but it's not easy. I'm trying to use Lattice Crosslink with the OpenLDI/LVDS to MIPI DSI IP as an adaptor.
Sweet. Does the lid require modding? That would be my first practical concern.
Dorkstation: T601f
Ultraportable: X61s

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Re: Don't get ripped off on an SXGA+ screen for your X61/X62

#12 Post by NonesensE » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:28 pm

fourthree wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:21 pm
NonesensE wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:56 pm
I'm on it, but it's not easy. I'm trying to use Lattice Crosslink with the OpenLDI/LVDS to MIPI DSI IP as an adaptor.
Sweet. Does the lid require modding? That would be my first practical concern.
I have yet to remove the touch glass in front of the display, but I wanted to get the electrics working first. On a first glance, it should fit a TMD (ultralight display) lid without modding (except cutting the rubber display holders slightly). A normal lid may require some modding as the UXGA display has no eyelets to fix it to the lid. Shouldn't be too hard, though.
Sometimes coming over from the German forum...
X62s 3rd batch, [s]T61[/s] T70 14" 4:3 1st batch

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Re: Don't get ripped off on an SXGA+ screen for your X61/X62

#13 Post by flyingfishfinger » Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:35 pm

I wonder if we can preserve the touch feature on that screen! That would be amazing.
Were you able to get the software to build correctly the 2nd time around, by the way?

R

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Re: Don't get ripped off on an SXGA+ screen for your X61/X62

#14 Post by wileE » Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:41 am

Just saw this on aliexpress: https://imgur.com/LOtQGMr

The DUPONT DISLAY ENHANCEMENTS (= DuPont Vertak direct-bonding adhesive) sticker belongs on a -101 screen, never on a -100.
So on this screen at least the -100 sticker is fake.

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Re: Don't get ripped off on an SXGA+ screen for your X61/X62

#15 Post by CPC464 » Sat May 19, 2018 7:57 am

Thank you for your comprehensive post!

Too late for me, here's one that has been already ripped off.

I suspected that, for the price I've paid (Eur 78, shipping included), there was a refurbished -or fake- LCD, but I tried it.

I've been relatively lucky. I've the LCD already mounted in my X61, and colors/contrast are OK side by side with my original SXGA+ X60T. Viewing angles are not as good as in the X60T, but only by a very slight margin.

After some hour of continous use, mine shows a slight "CRT TV effect", but it is only noticeable with maxed out brightness and a totally black, uniform picture on the screen, I can live with it
.
In my case, this SXGA+ LCD has been an improvement over the IPS XGA, but now I see how risky is it. And I didn't pay that much, but there are chinese sellers selling these screens for much more three times the price I've paid!

BTW, I suffered this "CRT TV effect" many years ago, in a B/W Compaq LTE lite I used to have. You powered it on, and the TFT screen was OK. After some time of being working, the corners began to become clearer, and after some hours there were almost white and you had to turn off the laptop and wait the TFT to cool down.

X220 IPS, i7 16Gb RAM 250Gb SSD+2Tb HD
X61 T8100, 8Gb RAM, Middleton BIOS, 480 Gb SSD, sxga+
W520 i7 quad, FHD, 32Gb, 512 SSD+2Tb HD
W701 24Gb RAM, WUXGA, 240 Gb SSD+1Tb HD,
others
X61t, X200t, W500, T43p UXGA, R50p UXGA, T60p UXGA
600, X21, X24, X30, X41, A30p UXGA

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Re: Don't get ripped off on an SXGA+ screen for your X61/X62

#16 Post by Thinkpad4by3 » Sat May 26, 2018 5:38 pm

Off topic but how was the TFT Mono screen on the LTE Lite 4/25E?
CPC464 wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 7:57 am
Probably should be Thinkpad16by10.

Looking For: 386 laptop, IBM or not.

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