Thinkpads Forum

It has been almost a decade since I bought my X61t SXGA+. Yet, it seems no machine like it was produced ever again.

A 4:3 aspect ratio. A non-glare screen. SXGA+ resolution or higher. A 2-in-1 that actually works (e.g., you can put it in portrait mode and the surface will be parallel to the table).

Are these too much to ask? What are my options currently?

New - Thinkpad tablets

Old models - X230T or 220T if new keys are an issue
- Thinkpad Twist, seems to have been a meh addition to the line, but the screen input worked very well.
- Thinkpad Helix 1/2 2 in 1 The V1 had more grunt with its CPU but ran a tad hot, the V2 uses a core M ULV cpu so is cooler but doesnt have the CPU power and it's build quality is slightly better than the V1.

It's not a great scenario as my works X220T will need replacing soon. I'm leaning to a X230T then the Helix 2

barushki wrote:.

Are these too much to ask?

Unfortunately, yes.

What are my options currently?

The closest that you'll come to *some* of the X6x tablet functionality will be via iPad and an external keyboard. I'm not kidding. Sad but true.

ajkula66 wrote:The closest that you'll come to *some* of the X6x tablet functionality will be via iPad and an external keyboard. I'm not kidding. Sad but true.

Even with a X230T?

Dekks wrote: Even with a X230T?

Well, OP did mention a 4:3 aspect ratio...I'm not even going to touch the abomination that the *30 series keyboard is. Yes, I know it's hackable. Still not a match for X6x tablet, IMO.

ajkula66 wrote:The closest that you'll come to *some* of the X6x tablet functionality will be via iPad and an external keyboard. I'm not kidding. Sad but true.

I have been meaning to start a new thread about laptop options available today versus ~10 years ago. IMO, they are much, much better today than ever, especially for convertible laptops AKA 2-in-1's.

As I have said over a dozen times, I had an X61t SXGA+ back in 2007 which I sold within two weeks because I simply couldn't stand it. The heft, the grainy screen, and the sluggish performance made it incredibly unpleasant to use.

barushki wrote:It has been almost a decade since I bought my X61t SXGA+. Yet, it seems no machine like it was produced ever again.

And I thank goodness for that!

barushki wrote:A 4:3 aspect ratio.

If 4:3 is an absolute requirement, you have extremely limited choices, probably zero among Windows convertibles. But if you just want something taller than 16:9, the Microsoft Surface Book is 13.5" 3000x2000, which is 3:2 obviously and it's a very powerful device. The Thinkpad X1 2-in-1 laptop is 12" 2160x1440 (3:2). Toshiba and HP also have several detachables with 1920x1200 (16:10) or 1920x1280 (3:2).

But once you convince yourself to accept 16:9, then OMG there are fantastic Windows convertibles out there, ranging from 8.9" to 17.3".

barushki wrote:A non-glare screen. SXGA+ resolution or higher. A 2-in-1 that actually works (e.g., you can put it in portrait mode and the surface will be parallel to the table).

I too was skeptical of glossy screens at first but learned that as soon as I stop paying attention to the reflection, it's no longer an issue. And I also couldn't care less about fingerprints.

ajkula66 wrote:I'm not even going to touch the abomination that the *30 series keyboard is.

The OP didn't mention the keyboard as a criterion.

ajkula66 wrote:Well, OP did mention a 4:3 aspect ratio...I'm not even going to touch the abomination that the *30 series keyboard is. Yes, I know it's hackable. Still not a match for X6x tablet, IMO.

OK np but he did say functionality, i expected you to comment on the kb

pianowizard wrote: But once you convince yourself to accept 16:9, then OMG there are fantastic Windows convertibles out there, ranging from 8.9" to 17.3".
.

As consumer items yes, for work I've yet to come across a robust 2 in 1

pianowizard wrote: The heft, the grainy screen, and the sluggish performance made it incredibly unpleasant to use.

A four-step-guide here:

1) Swap the entire lid with one from X60T SXGA+

2) Flash Middleton's BIOS and install an SSD

3) Max out the RAM

4) Install W7 or *nix of your choice and enjoy.

But once you convince yourself to accept 16:9, then OMG there are fantastic Windows convertibles out there, ranging from 8.9" to 17.3".

Why would one convince themselves into accepting 16:9 if 4:3 works for them?

I too was skeptical of glossy screens at first but learned that as soon as I stop paying attention to the reflection, it's no longer an issue. And I also couldn't care less about fingerprints.

I could not possibly disagree more with everything stated above. But to each their own.

The OP didn't mention the keyboard as a criterion.

True, but even if we were to forego the keyboard part of the story, OP's choices remain slim to none with slim walking out of the room as we speak...

There are 'X62' custom motherboards that are being made by the 51nb folks in china: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=120904.

I am not sure if they will fit in the tablet models. However, they do sport i7 5600U cpus, USB 3.0, mini-HDMI, and VGA. They may be available in a few months!

Thanks for those responses. Let me address a couple of the points mentioned.

16:9 ratio may work for a Photoshop user, who would have toolbars left and right. It does not work for a document author / annotator.

There won't be much light around a graphics artist's workstation either. But glare is a real issue in an office environment.

Also, if the PgDn & PgUp are positioned like ordinary function keys, then the resulting machine is a 2-in-1 that does not work for me.

(And like I said, in the tablet mode I want the screen parallel to the table, so screw the Surface Book. )

ajkula66 wrote:A four-step-guide here:

1) Swap the entire lid with one from X60T SXGA+

2) Flash Middleton's BIOS and install an SSD

3) Max out the RAM

4) Install W7 or *nix of your choice and enjoy.

I like my solution much better: sell the darn thing ASAP, and look for better products elsewhere. And I have found tons of better products since 2007!

You know me extremely well by now but in case the OP doesn't know me well enough, let me point out that I actually do enjoy modding screens, and upgrading hardware and software. In fact, my penchant for fiddling with computers is one of the many reasons I prefer desktops over laptops. But no, I still wouldn't have liked the X61t no matter how hard I had upgraded it.

Why would one convince themselves into accepting 16:9 if 4:3 works for them?

You answered your own question already when you said "The closest that you'll come to *some* of the X6x tablet functionality will be via iPad and an external keyboard. I'm not kidding. Sad but true." Good luck using an iPad as a productivity laptop.

barushki wrote:16:9 ratio may work for a Photoshop user, who would have toolbars left and right. It does not work for a document author / annotator.

I am a document author. The two main applications that I use on my computers (including laptops) are web browsers and Office. I like 16:9 *because* I am a document author, as long as the resolution is at least 1920x1080, which I consider to be the bare minimum for browsers and Office. My two primary desktop monitors are both 3840x2160. I also have four 2560x1440 monitors, and a 3840x2160 2-in-1 laptop. 4:3 monitors and laptops are no match for these 16:9 devices when it comes to document work. I do use Photoshop once in a while, for which the screen's aspect ratio doesn't matter at all. I don't watch videos much on my computers but when I do, letterboxing doesn't bother me and so I don't care whether the screen is 5:4, 4:3, 3:2, 16:10, 16:9, or 21:9.

Have you actually seen a 3:2 screen in person? It looks pretty tall. To facilitate a direct comparison:

4:3 = 8:6
3:2 = 9:6

You see, the difference is really quite small. 3:2 is only 12.5% wider than 4:3.

BTW, did you think I was a graphic artist?

barushki wrote:There won't be much light around a graphics artist's workstation either. But glare is a real issue in an office environment.

I work in an office with brighter-than-normal light -- one of my research interests is the health impacts of indoor lighting so I insist on making my office as bright as possible. Incidentally, there are many degrees of glossy. Some semi-glossy screens might work fine for you, so don't automatically dismiss all glossy screens.

barushki wrote:(And like I said, in the tablet mode I want the screen parallel to the table, so screw the Surface Book. )

Actually, if you had the Surface Book, you would simply detach the screen from the keyboard to achieve the tablet mode. The screen would be even more parallel to the table, and also much lighter than your clunky X61t. Oh, I bet battery life would be much better too.

The way we interact with our computers is constantly evolving. Many new devices are intended to be used differently than older computers. For instance, on a 4:3 screen, especially the 800x600 and 1024x768 ones many of us grew up with, we were supposed to maximize the document/browser on the screen. If we do the same on a 16:9 screen, then I agree 16:9 is awful. The emergence of new tablet/laptop hybrids is another example. X61t-like "twistables" have been almost completely replaced by detachables, and by 2-in-1's with screens that fold 360 degrees backward. These new devices seem terrible if we don't learn to use them properly, but once we have adapted to them, we realize they are far superior.

I often hear people say "why adapt if what we now have works?" With this mentality, we would all be still riding horses instead of driving.

Speaking of 2-in-1's that bend backward, I just realized that Lenovo's Yoga wasn't the first one with such a design. NEC already had this back in 2011, and it probably wasn't the first either: http://www.talkandroid.com/64751-nec-un ... &pid=64752

Interesting points, and the market seems to be on the side of pianowizard -- thus far -- although a manual transmission versus automatic would be a more apt analogy than horses versus cars (with the discussion being then among rally drivers instead of document authors).

Also, aspect ratio is a moot point with external monitors as size can always compensate for it.

And allow me to say screw the Surface Book nonetheless, because from the half-hour of playtime I had with it, I can tell with confidence that it is a big step backwards from emulating the pen-and-paper experience.

pianowizard wrote:
I often hear people say "why adapt if what we now have works?" With this mentality, we would all be still riding horses instead of driving.

Newer is not always better...after traveling half way around the world with a 15" 4:3 unit recently, I've realized - once again - that there's no reason for me to go with a different screen ratio in the next five years at least.

Not to mention that I'd take a (well-kept) 60's Benz as a daily driver over a new one any day of the week.

With that being said, newer is better on occasion...I'll happily take FiOS over dial-up...

brchan wrote: I am not sure if they will fit in the tablet models. However, they do sport i7 5600U cpus, USB 3.0, mini-HDMI, and VGA. They may be available in a few months!

They fit, but the heatsink does not. Nor can they currently be made to offer tablet functionality, though I've been thinking of what it would take to make a mod kit (small USB-capable pic with serial IO probably).

Dekks wrote:As consumer items yes, for work I've yet to come across a robust 2 in 1

There are already quite a few business-class 2-in-1's from Lenovo, Dell, HP and Panasonic. How many of those have you looked at?

barushki wrote:Also, aspect ratio is a moot point with external monitors as size can always compensate for it.

My Sony Pro 13 with 13.3" 1920x1080 touchscreen is probably my #1 favorite laptop of all time, beating >70 other laptops. In contrast, my Panasonic Let's Note CF-Y9 with 14.1" 1400x1050 is just collecting dust. I have been used to working with two (or more) documents side by side for over a decade now, and 1400x1050 is simply too narrow for that. 1600x1200 is still too crippling, which is why I had 2048x1536 on a T43p and two R50p Thinkpads for a couple years. Unfortunately, that particular 2048x1536 panel was so dim it was uncomfortable to use.

barushki wrote:And allow me to say screw the Surface Book nonetheless, because from the half-hour of playtime I had with it, I can tell with confidence that it is a big step backwards from emulating the pen-and-paper experience.

I have never tried writing on tablets so I wouldn't know. I imagine that the problem is two-fold: modern tablet screens are much more touch-sensitive than those of the X61t and earlier tablets, and the stylus has a tendency to slip on a glossy screen, even a semi-glossy one.

ajkula66 wrote:Newer is not always better...

Of course I never said "newer is always better". No sane person would ever say such a thing. I was referring specifically to the new convertibles being better than traditional tablets with twistable screens, and 16:9 being better than 4:3 for document work. As always, this is just my opinion.

ajkula66 wrote:after traveling half way around the world with a 15" 4:3 unit recently, I've realized - once again - that there's no reason for me to go with a different screen ratio in the next five years at least.

How is traveling half way around the world any different than walking 10 feet to work in a different room at home? I have been traveling across 11 - 13 time zones at least once a year recently, and found that all my needs could be met by even a tiny laptop (the Sony P Series with 8.0" 1600x768), or a small Windows tablet (the Thinkpad 8 with 8.3" 1920x1200) paired with a tiny Bluetooth keyboard. Naturally, I did only light work during those trips. If I ever take a trip where I expect to do serious work, I would probably take my Dell Inspiron 15-7568 with 15.6" 3840x2160 touchscreen. It weighs 4.64 lbs (though the charger is surprisingly small and light), so I wouldn't want to travel with it all the time, but that's still quite a bit lighter than your 15" 4:3 laptop.

And what will you do five years from now, when your maxed-out 15" 4:3 Frankenpad can no longer do anything useful?

pianowizard wrote:
And what will you do five years from now, when your maxed-out 15" 4:3 Frankenpad can no longer do anything useful?

Five years from now I'll be retired - presuming that I'm still alive to begin with - and will only need very basic Office and web functions. FrankenPad will suffice. And then some.

barushki wrote:[snip]I can tell with confidence that it is a big step backwards from emulating the pen-and-paper experience.[/snip]

I do my best work on pen and paper, available at your local stationary store.

The added benefit of 4:3 screens other than vertical resolution is high vertical height, which can significantly reduce neck strain compared to wider ratio displays. Funny how my 4:3 14.1" T61 is taller than the 16:9 15.6" screen on my W530. It's one of the reasons I keep keep using my T61, and a 15" display would be even better. On desktop monitors, this is less of an issue since the monitor height is adjustable.

I have never tried writing on tablets so I wouldn't know. I imagine that the problem is two-fold: modern tablet screens are much more touch-sensitive than those of the X61t and earlier tablets, and the stylus has a tendency to slip on a glossy screen, even a semi-glossy one.

Indeed, writing on glossy tablet screens are a pain. Matte resistive touchscreens offer a more natural writing experience, however, AFAIK, are only available on some fully rugged tablets like the Panasonic CF-19/18.

pianowizard wrote:There are already quite a few business-class 2-in-1's from Lenovo, Dell, HP and Panasonic. How many of those have you looked at?

I've used a Lenovo Helix and several HP offerings, for desk/office based use they could suffice but for paintshop/assembly shop floor use with pen input they are just too flimsy. I prefer the extra mass/solidity of the X220 tablet when working off a bumper stillage in assembly or reprogramming spray paths in the booth.

pianowizard wrote: I imagine that the problem is two-fold: modern tablet screens are much more touch-sensitive than those of the X61t and earlier tablets, and the stylus has a tendency to slip on a glossy screen, even a semi-glossy one.

Apple pencil on the iPad Pro was the best writing experience I've had so far, so I know those are not the culprit with Surface.

Anyway, I went and ordered an X1 tablet. We'll see how it goes.

jaspen-meyer wrote:I do my best work on pen and paper, available at your local stationary store.

And then scan your writing/drawing into your computer?

I think I write (by hand) no more than 200 words a year. Typing is so much faster and takes much less effort. For diagrams, hand-drawing is easier than using a mouse, though I still create most diagrams using PowerPoint and a mouse.

brchan wrote:The added benefit of 4:3 screens other than vertical resolution is high vertical height, which can significantly reduce neck strain compared to wider ratio displays.

You can simply put a book or two underneath the 16:9 laptop. Or lower your chair. Or do both.

Dekks wrote:I've used a Lenovo Helix and several HP offerings, for desk/office based use they could suffice but for paintshop/assembly shop floor use with pen input they are just too flimsy.

If it had a U.S. keyboard and if it were half the price, my ideal business-class 2-in-1 would probably be the Panasonic CF-RZ5:

http://shop.conics.net/index.php/comput ... cddpr.html

barushki wrote:Anyway, I went and ordered an X1 tablet. We'll see how it goes.

After you have used it for a while, would you tell us how you like it?

pianowizard wrote:

jaspen-meyer wrote:I do my best work on pen and paper

And then scan your writing/drawing into your computer?

Nope, it just stays on paper. Set goals, brainstorm, sketch ideas, draft (strategic) plans - all the brainy work, all on paper.

pianowizard wrote: After you have used it for a while, would you tell us how you like it?

Will do.

barushki wrote:I went and ordered an X1 tablet. We'll see how it goes.

Late to the party here, but the X1 Tablet is what I'm looking at as a successor to my X61 Tablet SXGA+ daily driver. I'll also be curious to hear what you think.

*sigh* I'm so apprehensive to 'upgrade' ..My IBM X61 is in a box (in a million pieces...stupid fan) and I WILL put it back together..someday. Currently on an X200 (which took me FOREVER to get set to be 2/3 of perfect as the X61 is)...It's starting to lag and crash and other wonderful things. Seeing that people are totally still using the X61 in 2016, makes me even more apprehensive to give up on it. It really is the greatest machine I have ever used. And I've used many a fancy piece of crap.