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X61 SXGA+ Glue bubbles

X60/X61 series specific matters only.
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Bibin
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X61 SXGA+ Glue bubbles

#1 Post by Bibin » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:23 am

I found an X61 tablet with an SXGA+ original screen that wasn't bubbling! How exciting - but by the time I got home, it began to show bubbles. The effect happened so quickly.

I replaced the screen with an XGA one for the time being, and I'm left with this SXGA+ screen with the bubbles. Has the glue removal technique been honed at this point, or is it still a long and [censored] affair? The glue is extremely hard to remove from my fingers when I touch it by accident. It would be great to separate the LCD and have it be usable, though.
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Re: X61 SXGA+ Glue bubbles

#2 Post by wileE » Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:08 am

Cutting the glue layer with a braided steel cable takes less than 10 minutes. (straight wire wont work)

Getting all the glue cleaned up is still a ***** affair. But it is mostly waiting for the solvent to do its work. I think what I use is called petroleum ether in english.

Link to thread: (large pic warning) https://thinkpad-forum.de/threads/13003 ... ost1950372

Another problem with the direct-bonding screens is that it is increasingly likely for the glue to leak into the diffusor layers. Which really messes up the screen. The issue is going to get worse with further aging of the glue. Pic: http://imgur.com/w6Lo7Sf

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Re: X61 SXGA+ Glue bubbles

#3 Post by jaspen-meyer » Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:32 pm

wileE wrote:Cutting the glue layer with a braided steel cable takes less than 10 minutes. (straight wire wont work)
Have you considered using string rather than braided steel cable? Something like UHMWPE or Kevlar, or even braided nylon? A common usage of the first is for fishing line -- though it's melting point is just 150C, Kevlar falls apart at ~800C. For a given tensile strength either UHMWPE or Kevlar will be much thinner than steel, 50kg strength UHMWPE has a diameter or 0.5mm,
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Re: X61 SXGA+ Glue bubbles

#4 Post by Bibin » Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:42 pm

wileE wrote:Cutting the glue layer with a braided steel cable takes less than 10 minutes. (straight wire wont work)

Getting all the glue cleaned up is still a ***** affair. But it is mostly waiting for the solvent to do its work. I think what I use is called petroleum ether in english.

Link to thread: (large pic warning) https://thinkpad-forum.de/threads/13003 ... ost1950372

Another problem with the direct-bonding screens is that it is increasingly likely for the glue to leak into the diffusor layers. Which really messes up the screen. The issue is going to get worse with further aging of the glue. Pic: http://imgur.com/w6Lo7Sf
That is a scary thought. Fortunately, the X61 has been stored with the LCD facing downwards, and now that I've removed it I'm storing it that way as well to reduce the chances of it hitting the diffusion layers. Right now the diffusion is perfect, so if I can separate the layers cleanly then I can save this LCD.

I'll see what I can find for the cable. I expect that the thinner it is, the better it will work. For it to not cut in to my hands, I'll have to find some kind of handle for it.
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Re: X61 SXGA+ Glue bubbles

#5 Post by ajkula66 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:47 am

Bibin wrote: For it to not cut in to my hands, I'll have to find some kind of handle for it.
Or a really good set of construction gloves...
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Re: X61 SXGA+ Glue bubbles

#6 Post by wileE » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:27 am

jaspen-meyer wrote: Have you considered using string rather than braided steel cable? Something like UHMWPE or Kevlar, or even braided nylon? A common usage of the first is for fishing line
Tried all that. It will get stuck in the glue. A hot wire, like in a styrofoam cutter would work, but there is serious danger of damaging the polarizer.
Bibin wrote:I'll have to find some kind of handle for it.
I use this: http://imgur.com/abiIhu7
3 or 4 strands of the cable work best.

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Re: X61 SXGA+ Glue bubbles

#7 Post by jaspen-meyer » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:55 am

wileE wrote:
jaspen-meyer wrote: Have you considered using string rather than braided steel cable? Something like UHMWPE or Kevlar, or even braided nylon? A common usage of the first is for fishing line
Tried all that. It will get stuck in the glue. A hot wire, like in a styrofoam cutter would work, but there is serious danger of damaging the polarizer.
Stuck in the glue, really? I'd expect a strong fishing line to perform no different than a steel cable. Which exactly did you try?

A modification to the handles is to wrap the line around the wood 7 times to spread the force over a larger surface area.
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Re: X61 SXGA+ Glue bubbles

#8 Post by wileE » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:53 am

jaspen-meyer wrote: Stuck in the glue, really? I'd expect a strong fishing line to perform no different than a steel cable. Which exactly did you try?
You are welcome to try it yourself if you don't believe me.
The important part about the braided cable is that the group of strands retains the curly helix form.

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Re: X61 SXGA+ Glue bubbles

#9 Post by axur-delmeria » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:56 am

IIRC, using a heat gun can soften the glue a bit.
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Re: X61 SXGA+ Glue bubbles

#10 Post by jaspen-meyer » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:58 am

wileE wrote: You are welcome to try it yourself if you don't believe me.
I believe the test failed but for that to be meaningful one must know the conditions of the test.
The important part about the braided cable is that the group of strands retains the curly helix form.
What is the min and max diameter of your 3-strand wire?
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Re: X61 SXGA+ Glue bubbles

#11 Post by automobus » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:32 pm

wileE wrote:I think what I use is called petroleum ether in english.
Did you use same product as el-sahef? That looks like lighter fluid.

Does the "braided steel wire" method not scratch top/front surface of LCD display?

(I want to thank you, wileE, for contributing in both ThinkPad forums. And thank you, for helping us Amerikaner who do not understand German.)

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Re: X61 SXGA+ Glue bubbles

#12 Post by wileE » Sun Sep 18, 2016 3:10 pm

jaspen-meyer wrote: What is the min and max diameter of your 3-strand wire?
Too thin for me to get a good measurement. The cable was 1.5mm, 7groups of 7 wires each.
automobus wrote: Did you use same product as el-sahef? That looks like lighter fluid.

Does the "braided steel wire" method not scratch top/front surface of LCD display?
I have no idea what was in his lighter fluid bottle. It did not work all that well anyway.
I use petroleum ether, which is sold as "cleaning gasoline" here. Isopropyl alcohol will also work, but not as fast.
Just never try to use acetone for this.

The wires should be smooth and undamaged. Easy to check by running it through your fingertips. Then there is no risk of damaging the screen surface. The glue layer also offers some surface protection during cutting.

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Re: X61 SXGA+ Glue bubbles

#13 Post by Bibin » Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:54 am

I imagine during the glue cleaning phase a lot of caution must be exercised, as isopropyl alcohol will absolutely ruin the backlight via capillary action.
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Re: X61 SXGA+ Glue bubbles

#14 Post by wileE » Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:58 pm

Yes, you have to be very careful with any kind of liquid on the screen.
I use a piece of cloth smaller than the screen surface. Only this cloth is soaked with the solvent, and then covered with a piece aluminum foil to prevent the solvent from rapidly vaporising.
After 10 to 20 minutes some glue can be removed by rubbing sifted flour into the soft glue. Repeat often. The use of flour makes a huge mess, so put some old newspaper undeneath.

It is very important to cover the back and tape the sides of the screen before you begin taking off the glass.

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Re: X61 SXGA+ Glue bubbles

#15 Post by jaspen-meyer » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:05 pm

wileE wrote:I use petroleum ether, which is sold as "cleaning gasoline" here.
On the 'petroleum ether' package does is list the chemical composition? There may be CAS numbers, or something similiar which would help identify what exactly is in there.
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Re: X61 SXGA+ Glue bubbles

#16 Post by jaspen-meyer » Thu Sep 22, 2016 3:40 am

I tried a few strings with the following result:

TEST #1 braided nylon rated at 50 LB breaking strength
RESULT string continually snapped once it was covered in glue. Total force was perhaps 5 lbs. Either the sharp edges of the glass cut the line, or the glue weakened the line.

TEST #2 briaded UHMWPE rated at 60 LB breaking strength
RESULT basically the same as test 1 but line snapped earlier making the UHMWPE totally useless.
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Re: X61 SXGA+ Glue bubbles

#17 Post by RealBlackStuff » Thu Sep 22, 2016 5:40 am

Translated back into German, wileE is talking about Reinigungsbenzin.
CAS-data here on page 3: http://www.hornbach.de/data/shop/D04/00 ... 143045.pdf

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Re: X61 SXGA+ Glue bubbles

#18 Post by xiphmont » Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:18 pm

From my experiments (that ended with 'I am not messing with this anymore') the adhesive is a pine tar derivative. That's not as crazy as it sounds, traditional optics cements are all pine-sap-based...

In any case, I found straight ethanol dissolved it reasonably well. If it really is a balsam, the preferred solvent is xylene. I haven't tried xylene myself.

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Re: X61 SXGA+ Glue bubbles

#19 Post by Bibin » Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:20 pm

In order to make ethanol work, I'd have to be willing to basically sacrifice the backlight. It'll ruin it instantly with capillary action, as I've witnessed first-hand.

I still have this thing in a box, I haven't really tried anything with it yet.
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