Thinkpads Forum

Hey, Since I owned a X40 and currently own a X31 I need something of my mind.

Why the *beep* has Lenovo changed the keyboard?

It doesn’t have the red and blue stripes on the trackpoint buttons anymore, and worse they are square instead of nice and forming (can make pics, but I think you know what I mean)

Also they changed the power and Access IBM buttons, and again not for the better.

Is there anyway to convince Lenovo NOT to do this???
Because I really don't want an X60 if the keyboard stays as bad as it looks right now.

(otherwise... X60s here I come )

X series owners! Let Lenovo hear of you!

RS_003 wrote:It doesn’t have the red and blue stripes on the trackpoint buttons anymore,

Above all, the X60 features *two* horrendous windoze keys, what a waste of space. My main application involves heavy use of the Ctrl and Alt keys, it will be much more difficult to hit them right now that they had to let the useless windoze keys be squeezed in between them.

Now you say.. I forgot about that.
I don't need an Windows key either, windows keys are for consumer notebookbooks, not for professionals (imho )

I find the Windows keys useful (at least the Windows key, not the app key). They might be a tad too small to be useful on the Lenovo keyboard, but I think it's a step in the right direction. It's easier to not use a key that's there than to use a key that isn't there.

The overall look of the keyboard/ultranav is indeed duller, but why did you just wake up now. The change has first been introduced on the Z60 series. Now they are just continuing the new trend.

As long as it keeps the feel of the good Thinkpad keyboard, I think they downsides of the new look are not critical.

Well, for me it loses the original ThinkPad look.
And yes on the Z60's it begun.
But since that was al whole other series I thought it was just a test or something, because why give-up that trusted Thinkpad feeling?

I don't like the new trackpoint buttons. As explained in the TS
They don’t look comfortable.


Ok, the windows key is discussable, but the rest of the changes are just not done.

I simply despise those stupid windows keys. The main reason I liked IBM laptops were the fact that they didn't have those useless keys on the keyboard.

I wonder if this is a sign to come from lenovo that they won't be very respective to folks who run other operating systems besides windows. In past Thinkpad models, you could find modules (drivers) for download on the ibm.com/support site, as well as linux friendly hardware in the laptop.

The main selling point for me is the keyboard. The keyboard on the 600e is the best keyboard ever made for a laptop, top notch quality. I have a T30 as well, that keyboard is pretty good too.

Very disappointed, I really could've used an upgraded laptop come this Fall.

RS_003 wrote:Ok, the windows key is discussable, but the rest of the changes are just not done.

Agree with you completely.

I simply despise those stupid windows keys. The main reason I liked IBM laptops were the fact that they didn't have those useless keys on the keyboard.

I wonder if this is a sign to come from lenovo that they won't be very respective to folks who run other operating systems besides windows. In past Thinkpad models, you could find modules (drivers) for download on the ibm.com/support site, as well as linux friendly hardware in the laptop.

Stop being stupid. The Windows keys are NOT useless. To you they might be, but there is a large community of people that uses them a lot. Don't want to? Don't use it. What makes more sense? To give them to people who might find them useful or to keep them away for the sake of purists who absolutely refuse to live with a Ctrl key that is a bit smaller?

Every keyboard out there now, besides IBM, has Windows keys. How's the simple fact that the keys are there makes the system unfriendly to Linux users?

It's kinda like the touchpad issue. Personally, I find the touchpad completely unusable and always use the trackpoint. But there are lots of people who aren't like that and for their sake IBM/Lenovo started putting dual pointing devices on their laptops. I see that as a welcome change.

I understand that introducing the Windows keys changes the keyboard layout slightly and it might be uncomfortable to adjust for people who are used to the old one. I felt EXACTLY the same when Windows keys first started appearing on desktop keyboards. I was furious too. But adjusting wasn't too hard. No longer do I hit the Windows key by accident, and I make full use of the keyboard shortcuts that employ that key, to speed things up.

If the Windows keys never appeared and MS would have used other keyboard shortcuts, chances are nobody would ever mind. But the Windows keys are there, they are the standard, and if you want to appeal to the masses - better respect standards.

Or just use the provided utility to remap a key...i think it should be an option to get a keyboard without the windows keys - but that is my opinion...

Yes, but that’s just one problem.

There Are more. (the keyboard now: looks cheap, it looks uncomfortable, it looks ugly, and so fort.)
So, my question is, how can we get this message to lenovo?

wolfman wrote:Or just use the provided utility to remap a key...i think it should be an option to get a keyboard without the windows keys - but that is my opinion...

Yeah, and there should be an option to get a keyboard without F11 and F12 (old keyboards didn't have them) and with the Ctrl to the left of the Fn (some may like it this way) and without the trackpoint (some may not need it) and with a larger Enter and the backslash stuck to the right of the right Shift (as appears on some keyboard layouts).

See what I'm getting at?

I don't use a Window Key, I do *NOT* need another physical key on my keyboard that has a "Special Feature" on Windows XP. I use the Thinkpad Keyboard Utility and have mapped the Right Alt key to bring up the Start Menu. Different people like different keyboard layouts, but I do think there is an "Ideal" layout that the Thinkpad Keyboard is close to. Considering the other keyboards on other laptops, most of which are utter crap, I think that a Thinkpad keyboard design that doesn't change every time a new model is released is a good thing. It isn't just the Linux users who feel that the Win Key is a bad idea, I know of a good deal of mainly Windows XP users that hate it too. Also, even if there wasn't a keyboard utility on the Thinkpads, you could still map a hotspot on the Touchpad with the Synaptics Driver to bring up the Start Menu. I mapped quite a few to do such things, and they work just fine.

christopher_wolf wrote:Considering the other keyboards on other laptops, most of which are utter crap, I think that a Thinkpad keyboard design that doesn't change every time a new model is released is a good thing. It isn't just the Linux users who feel that the Win Key is a bad idea, I know of a good deal of mainly Windows XP users that hate it too. Also, even if there wasn't a keyboard utility on the Thinkpads, you could still map a hotspot on the Touchpad with the Synaptics Driver to bring up the Start Menu. I mapped quite a few to do such things, and they work just fine.

I mapped the right Alt key to the Windows key, but now I've lost the functionality of the right Alt key, which I'd sometimes like to use. Besides, I'm more comfortable with the Windows key on the left.

I don't like the Windows keys either, but I understand and accept that I am a member of a miniscule percentage of notebook buyers, and thus, am rather surprised that it took IBM/Lenovo this long to put it in.

I too only care about the feel of the keyboard, though that too has gone downhill over the years. My X22 keyboard feels better than my X32 keyboard, but the X32 is still good enough that it beats any non-ThinkPad out there except for the Apple PowerBook, which has a ThinkPad-quality keyboard like the good old days (not as good as 600-series, better than any T-series).

Ehhhh, I don't think so; the quality of the T Series Keyboard is the same as the X Series. There is a slightly different feel, but that is only a minor variation from T to X to R and doesn't mean there is a quality difference amongst them. If I were to see a significant wear differential between a T Series keyboard and an X Series keyboard, like keys popping off, then maybe; I haven't seen that though. So that leads me to believe it is more a matter of feel of the keyboard; for which I am glad I the Thinkpads and Powerbooks have excellent quality keyboards. I don't know how many manufacturers with laptop lines out there know how important a Keyboard is; after all, it is a major UI for the system.

Yeah, and there should be an option to get a keyboard without F11 and F12 (old keyboards didn't have them) and with the Ctrl to the left of the Fn (some may like it this way) and without the trackpoint (some may not need it) and with a larger Enter and the backslash stuck to the right of the right Shift (as appears on some keyboard layouts).

See what I'm getting at?

No, not really. The keyboard on my old A21m and my current R40 show very, very little change - the R40 keyboard is basically the same as on the current spec T43's, etc.

My A21m keyboard:
http://www.impactcomputers.com/impactco ... k5455.html#
My R40 keyboard:
http://www.impactcomputers.com/impactco ... k4729.html#

So I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for a keyboard like the one that has shipped pretty much the same (only difference I saw was the browser forward and back keys) on most thinkpads for the better part of the last 6 years or so.

I see no difference between this and the wrist rest with a touchpad and the wrist rest without a touchpad. Many here have replaced theirs to remove the touchpad. I realize lots of people like the windows keys, etc, and it allows them to appeal to a wider audience...I don't see how offering a FRU for a "classic" keyboard is that big of a deal.

I really dont have any great preference as to wether or not the windows keys are on the keyboard or not. What i dont like however is the other key changes they have made.

I hope they make a norwegian style keyboard, but i guess the norwegian letters will get the same narrow size keys that is present on my x40 keyboard.

Really like the price so I guess I will place an order soon

Keyboard difference isn't between the different series, but rather an observation of the passage of years (cust-cutting, not wear).

The old 600 series were the high-water-mark for Thinkpad keyboard quality. Older X series, like my X22, were better than the current ones. I just sold a T42p which had keyboard quality about the same as my X32 (or possibly a bit better - NMB v. Chicony), but neither was as good as my X22, which isn't as good as the old 600E sitting in my closet.

I put the PowerBook at about the same quality level as the X22 for keyboard feel, very different feel, but equal quality. I don't know about the X60 yet, but if it is the equal of the X32 or T4x, then it will not match the feel of the X22 or the PowerBook.

The design engineers have done usability tests, so there are probably good reasons to change the keyboard. You haven't typed on it yet, so the chance will be big it's actually an IMPROVEMENT. Also the colors, well, many prefer just black instead of grey. I think you can't draw any conclusion yet, prior of having the new Thinkpad and tested it, or read some reviews that done some tests. So I urge some to be less conservative...some change can be good.

THere is an equal chance that they did COST, rather than useability studies, and that the new keyboard is CHEAPER, rather than better.

Well, I have read that the designers have said this. I assume they wouldn't lie.

And General Motors said that the new for 1980 Cavalier, J2000 and Skylark would beat the imports at their own game. They wouldn't lie either.

I think you are likely correct. Cost reduction is a HUGE factor in this industry. If they can save even a few cents on each key component, it adds up to a fortune saved on the entire number of systems produced, and increased profits. I would bet that the new keyboard is cheaper.
Andrew

asiafish wrote:THere is an equal chance that they did COST, rather than useability studies, and that the new keyboard is CHEAPER, rather than better.

I know for sure, its look cheaper anyway.

But why Lenovo, you know your ThinkPad customers don't like changes.
Isn't this a stupid move?
I also already heard that the T60 has a different AC.
(Also a change not welcomed very warm…)

Like I said before, if this topic gets big enough, I think we should send Lenovo a link, just to show them that a percentage of the Thinkpad owners do not like the changes.

I understand that some people appreciate the Windows key being added on some Thinkpad models. However, in a 12" model (and IMHO also in a 14" model), it's a no-no. Hopefully, there will be an option for the X60s with a decent keyboard. I never understood why they don't simply move the FN key inside and bundle it's functionality with that of the Windows key. That would be a solution that could please a lot of people. Let me add that I use German keyboards, and they do have an "AltGr" key instead of the right "Alt". This key is necessary to get a lot of special characters ("\", "{", etc.) that are needed e.g. when programming. If this key will be smaller than that on the X40, then the keyboard will be unusable for me.

Also one should keep in mind that as a touch typist, one usually hits the Ctrl, Alt, and AltGr keys with the little fingers or the thumbs, using arcane movements. Thus those keys cannot be large enough.

PS: For people who are missing the Windows key: Just map it to Caps-Lock, a key that is rarely needed by most.

There is about a zero possibility of that. They are not going to offer more than one keyboard style for US, etc. That would never happen, IMHO.
Andrew

feklee wrote:...Hopefully, there will be an option for the X60s with a decent keyboard...

The current "remap the right Alt key to be Windows key" is a terrible solution. Thankfully they finally woke up and put the Windows key on the stinking keyboard. The biggest problem with the current mapping is that sometimes you just _want_ to use the right alt key for, well, an alt key (like when browsing with an external keyboard and you'd instinctively hit Right Alt + left button and instead the freaking Start Menu pops up).

The Windows key is useful enough to merit inclusion into the keyboard. Useful shortcuts:

Win + E = Explorer
Win + R = Run window
Win + M = Minimize all windows
Shift + Win + M = Restore minimized windows to original state

And so forth. If you don't use the Windows key and you use Windows, you should learn how to use the key--it's darned useful, and that utility CANNOT be denied.

Easy there; some people like it and some people don't. I can do all of of those aforementioned commands just by assigning hotspots on the touchpad. I have used an external keyboard as well and have never had the start menu pop up unwanted. I wouldn't mind it if it didn't make other keys, which are generally used more, smaller and harder to hit accurately with your pinky finger or thumb. Besides, if you hook up an external keyboard, you might as well get one with a Win Key anyway and decouple the right alt key assignment. Now I can stand the Win key, but what about that menu key? I can honestly say that I find no use for a key that does the same thing that a *right mouse click* does. Why take up more space on the bottom row for such a simple action? What is next? A key set to close windows, maximize, and minimize them? Good Heavens...

RS_003 wrote:I know for sure, its look cheaper anyway.

But why Lenovo, you know your ThinkPad customers don't like changes.
Isn't this a stupid move?
I also already heard that the T60 has a different AC.
(Also a change not welcomed very warm…)

Like I said before, if this topic gets big enough, I think we should send Lenovo a link, just to show them that a percentage of the Thinkpad owners do not like the changes.

Not liking change is not a valid argument - if you don't like change then stick with your current X series. The point is progress will always bring about changes that some will like and some will not - but I think you would really be surprised by the number of people who want a windows key - it was one of the main reasons for bringing out the keyboard customiser utility I think.

On a 12" machine I agree that there is not enough space on the bottom row for the extra keys - IMHO I would put the Fn key under the Esc key instead - but again this would probably upset a lot of people and lead to stupid support calls. Lenovo are also in the unfortunate position that any change they make now is interpreted as the end of ThinkPads. I have not used a T60 or X60 keyboard so I will reserve my judgement until I do; the addition of these buttons didn't annoy me on the Z series at all and I thought it might.

Read the topic before you post will you?

It’s not about the Windows key alone, but also the rest.
And personally I am not a fan of the Windows key, but if that would have been the only change I would not have made this topic.

Well i don't want to get into an argument but I did read the whole post and the windows key did seem to be the main point of controversy. The rest, with the possible exception of the trackpoint button shape, were all just cosmetic which I don't regard as too important compared to the functionality.

I agree that I preferred the stripes on the trackpoint buttons and the old shape but functionality wise after using the Z series it has no impact. Likewise the power buttons and the volume keys, I personally preferred the T30 ones to anything but functionality wise they still turn the machine on and adjust my volume so I do not see how it is of a large concern.

My point was change alone is no reason to assume it is not as good. I am sure there are some people who actually prefer the aesthetics of the new keyboards, either way though, I just think people should wait till they have used it before complaining; I doubt the look of the machine is a driving force for most people to purchase a ThinkPad.

I get your point about the AC - i hate new adapters but I understand the need for more power on these systems and therefore can forgive this as long as the new adapter becomes the standard for the next few generations of systems.