Thinkpads Forum

I have a ThinkPad X60 with an 8 cell battery, internal: bluetooth, verizon wan card, and the atheros wireless card. The model number is 1709. When charging the battery, using wireless, and a bluetooth mouse I am getting an APS temperature reading of 57 C, when not using wireless I am getting a reading of 43-45 C. Does anyone know what the normal reading should be? I have already contacted tech support and they sent me a box to send my laptop to the repair depot. Any idea of what they will do to fix the temperature problem?

I LOVE the laptop, just got it yeasterday, but if it is already having problems would love for someone to give me some hope

Thank you!

I think this topic is starting to get a little to much attention on this forum.

Think about it logically. You are using a machine that is .8 inches thick(yours is thicker you have the X60 with a faster processor which is not a UL processor). It has a harddrive that spins at 5400rpm in that space with barely any room to breath. You have a wireless card with a processor that also generates heat, you have a cpu and heatsink which is pretty much pushing the limits of cooling in a very tiny package. On top of all that you have a bluetooth reciever generating heat, also keep in mind the processor when plugged in is running full speed with both cores running, and on TOP OF THAT the powersupply is now charging the battery and when you charge a battery you generate heat.

Now I ask you again. How do expect this tiny laptop filled to the gills with everything that generates heat to remain cool?

If its absurdely hot and you cant keep your hands on it, then maybe yea I undestand, but if its warm to the touch then you are going to have to get used to it because sadly that is a design charachteristic of these tiny machines.


edit: personally when I get mine I plan to open it up and put AS5 on the cpu.

Sam, great point. I agree that some heat should be expected, that was part of my reason to ask what temperature is considered normal for the X60 with all of these features running, if I had a benchmark I would know if this is normal or a-normal. I could not find that information anywhere online. I did see a post about 55 C being way too hot (mine got to 57 C last night). If normal, I need to consider not going with an ultra portable, if a-normal then the repair should do the trick and I can go on my way with a

Would love to know your APS temp., if you have a configuration close to mine...

Thanks for responding to my first post so fast!

And I do love the laptop, I can't believe how much is in it.

Joe

Saml01 wrote:edit: personally when I get mine I plan to open it up and put AS5 on the cpu.

just don't forget to post pics of disassembly

Im a firm beleiver in murphys law, if its not broke dont fix it.

if you laptop works, and it doesnt do anything stupid then let it be. on the other hand, like I said, if something is influencing your productivity then you should get it checked out.

dannyp wrote:

Saml01 wrote:edit: personally when I get mine I plan to open it up and put AS5 on the cpu.

just don't forget to post pics of disassembly

I hope there are some tutorials online. Id hate to rip apart a brand new laptop.

The last time i took a laptop down to its nuts and bolts litteraly was a G4 17inch PB with a cracked screen that needed a replacement.

jkaylen wrote:Does anyone know what the normal reading should be?

Joe, did you look at the two threads below?

Warm palm rests on x60 and x60s - what is the concensus?
Wifi card heat problem

From what I read, your notebook is not excessively hot. I don't know if it is possible to have lower temperatures with an X60 because the processor is running hotter than that of a low-voltage X60s.

Saml01 wrote:when I get mine I plan to open it up and put AS5 on the cpu.

Just curious (pardon my ignorance): what is AS5? To me it looks like a spammer's attempt to defeat filtering software

domi wrote: Just curious (pardon my ignorance): what is AS5? To me it looks like a spammer's attempt to defeat filtering software

LOL; it stands for Artic Silver 5 (AS5)

A thermal compound usually applied between CPUs and the component heatsink to facilitate better heat transfer to the heatsink allowing for, in general provided that the cooling system is functioning normally, lower operating temperatures.

christopher_wolf wrote: LOL; it stands for Artic Silver 5 (AS5)

A thermal compound usually applied between CPUs and the component heatsink to facilitate better heat transfer to the heatsink allowing for, in general provided that the cooling system is functioning normally, lower operating temperatures.

Thanks for educating me!

Now, one would think ThinkPad designers have tried everything to make an ultraportable like the X60s run cooler, so if AS5 is so good, why didn't they put some at the factory? Would one really gain something by applying it afterwards?

domi wrote: Now, one would think ThinkPad designers have tried everything to make an ultraportable like the X60s run cooler, so if AS5 is so good, why didn't they put some at the factory? Would one really gain something by applying it afterwards?

I really don't know. IBM/Lenovo does indeed apply thermal compound to the CPU assembley inside the Thinkpads, but I do not know whether or not it is AS related. AS is simply more of a custom touch to get things just that much better.

Do a search of the T4X Forums and you will find a bunch of posts outlining how some have put Arctic Silver (and other thermal compounds) on their CPUs and noted significantly lower temperatures. This isn't, of course, for the faint of heart.

Also, a *thin* (and I mean thin) layer is what is needed; any more and it will start acting like an insulator which is not what you want happening with it. (Apple discovered that on some build revisions of their MBPs.)

Saml01 wrote: Now I ask you again. How do expect this tiny laptop filled to the gills with everything that generates heat to remain cool?

I think that this line of thinking is somewhat flawed. Imagine if we'd adhered to this in the 50's when the smallest computer filled a room...

My machine did suffer from the hot/warm palmrest problem (APS sensor temp high was 61C) to the point that it was uncomfortable to keep my palm on the machine. Lenovo fixed it in a matter of days, and now my APS temp stays below 50C all the time. I think this is a matter of a few bad apples. Lenovo is aware of the problem and gladly fixes it under warranty.

domi wrote:

christopher_wolf wrote: LOL; it stands for Artic Silver 5 (AS5)

A thermal compound usually applied between CPUs and the component heatsink to facilitate better heat transfer to the heatsink allowing for, in general provided that the cooling system is functioning normally, lower operating temperatures.

Thanks for educating me!

Now, one would think ThinkPad designers have tried everything to make an ultraportable like the X60s run cooler, so if AS5 is so good, why didn't they put some at the factory? Would one really gain something by applying it afterwards?

AS5 is a fantastic compound. I have done comparisons at home with various processors, using stock grease and AS5 and the difference was a good 5 - 10 degrees on some processors.

Companies probably dont like applying it because they use what comes with the processor, simple, cheap and it works. But does it work to the best of its ability is another story.

I just dont know how simple it will be to do this in this machine.

foodle wrote:

Saml01 wrote: Now I ask you again. How do expect this tiny laptop filled to the gills with everything that generates heat to remain cool?

I think that this line of thinking is somewhat flawed. Imagine if we'd adhered to this in the 50's when the smallest computer filled a room...

My machine did suffer from the hot/warm palmrest problem (APS sensor temp high was 61C) to the point that it was uncomfortable to keep my palm on the machine. Lenovo fixed it in a matter of days, and now my APS temp stays below 50C all the time. I think this is a matter of a few bad apples. Lenovo is aware of the problem and gladly fixes it under warranty.

True, but those were just inefficient. Today we have machines that are thousands of times smaller with thousands of times more processing power. Efficiency has gone up but cooling is lagging, thats why we have processors with low power consumptions and speedstepping and what not.

Still to expect a tiny machines like this to run cool without a hitch is asking for a lot especially when they are already pushing the design envelope.

Saml01 wrote: True, but those were just inefficient. Today we have machines that are thousands of times smaller with thousands of times more processing power. Efficiency has gone up but cooling is lagging, thats why we have processors with low power consumptions and speedstepping and what not.

Still to expect a tiny machines like this to run cool without a hitch is asking for a lot especially when they are already pushing the design envelope.

The main reason that we currently have power/heat issues is due to non-ideal scaling of CMOS processes. The supply voltage (Vdd) has not been scaling down as much as it should. This is due to the device threshold voltage (Vth) not scaling down as much as it should under constant field scaling due to concerns over sub-threshold leakage. If CMOS processes did scale according to constant field scaling rules as they did in years past, we would not be experiencing the power/heat issues we have today. A die of a constant absolute size should dissipate a constant amount of power across processes under ideal scaling. So it is not fundamentally unreasonable to expect a small machine to not dissipate much power or generate much heat.

foodle wrote: So it is not fundamentally unreasonable to expect a small machine to not dissipate much power or generate much heat.

Except if one chooses to implement a setup where you scale down the voltage thresholds as much as one can. Still, that only goes so far in eliminating the amount of power dissipated as heat. In such cases as a compact ultra-portable with higher-performance components, you would need a further specialized cooling system to deal with it. This is all well and fine if we are talking about the CPU or the GPU, but there are some devices for which this is either impractical or nigh unto impossible without further advances in the technology (or a *seriously* active power management system at the hardware level), this isn't even considering the standards that the device should adapt to (e.g. 802.11x protocols, FCC, IEEE, etc).

The wireless chipset is a good example of this in that you cannot go below certain minimums easily without a sharp drop off in the reliability. Another example would be a higher performance HDD, power managing ablilities notwithstanding. As long as the the lambda feature size is kept relatively constant, a die of the same size from the same fab should produce the same amount of heat. As if *that* wasn't enough, they all have to be crammed into a little ultraportable and carted off the the R&D end-process engineers who have to test it and make further refinements based off of the combination of parts inside the machine. Just because one part with a certain spec and another with a different spec are put together doesn't mean they are going to run as one expects; that's what operations research and prototypes are for; the parts have to work together as a whole before one can even think about optimizing it in terms of power dissipation or what have you.

The effective conduction of heat away from the internals of mobile systems has become an increasingly more difficult subject for computer manufacturers to tackle. Solutions have ranged everywhere from IBM's Thermal Hinge as a first in laptops to the outright strange as in Hitachi's Water-cooled laptop. The latter demonstrates just how far some will go to attain an effective solution to heat dissipation issues when it comes to mobile systems.

dannyp wrote:

Saml01 wrote:edit: personally when I get mine I plan to open it up and put AS5 on the cpu.

just don't forget to post pics of disassembly

For anyone interested, here is what AS5 comes in . . . . http://www.arcticsilver.com/as5.htm

Saml01 wrote:I think this topic is starting to get a little to much attention on this forum....Think about it logically....How do expect this tiny laptop filled to the gills with everything that generates heat to remain cool?

Wow, I hardly know where to start. Something that you don't care about gets "too much attention"? Sounds like you're setting yourself up as the objective standard of what matters to ThinkPad users. Have you considered that all that attention might be a clue that it *does* matter?

How do I expect it to remain cool? Gee, I don't know. But then, I don't know how much of anything in the laptop is supposed to work. I can just tell good results from bad. Your attitude can stifle any complaint: LCD doesn't have good color reproduction? I think that topic is starting to get a little too much attention on this forum...think about it logically...how do you expect this ultra-thin, low power display to have color as good as a 50lb, 2sq. ft. CRT?

What makes people mad (disappointed, etc.) about this is that for many it destroys all the other usefulness of the laptop. A palm rest you can't rest your palms on is not a compromise, its a surrender. You might as well go with a 4" LCD to save weight. More than any other model, the X60 is built to be carried around and typed on directly, not to sit on a desk with an external keyboard. Many, many people find any appreciable heat in the palm area to be a hugely uncomfortable. Sure, it will be warmer than the ambient temperature. But even 'warm' is undesirable, and anything worse is a deal-killer for many people.

Saml01 wrote:If its absurdly hot and you cant keep your hands on it, then maybe yea I understand, but if its warm to the touch then you are going to have to get used to it because sadly that is a design characteristic of these tiny machines.

What is an "absurd" surface temperature? I'd like to know so that "maybe" you'll understand! In any event, isn't there a rather large swath of temperatures between 'absurdly hot' and 'warm to the touch'? What if it's right in between? Couldn't that still be pretty darn uncomfortable? Or are you only going to acknowledge a problem if the palm rest literally burns our skin? Personally, I find that a hot laptop creates in me a noticeable psychological disincentive to touch it. I stick things between myself and it underneath, and pull my hands off the keyboard and palm rest when I'm not typing. When I go away for a moment and come back I hesitate to touch it again, and when I do the return of the heat is very unpleasant. It's like going back into a hot room where you are working, after a break in a cool one. I think "how much longer do I have to do this for?" and wish that I could just do something else. I frequently pull my hands off, rub them, blow on them, and lay them out flat on a cooler surface. My fingertips are especially sensitive to the heat, so I don't rest them on the keys when I'm not actively hitting any of them. My typing rhythm is even noticeably affected by me trying subconsciously to touch the keys for the least amount of time. Does this sound enjoyable to you? We cannot simply "get used to it." It *is* a big problem, it is *not* physically impossible to make this laptop run cool, and they *should* make sure that it does.

How do I expect it to remain cool? Gee, I don't know. But then, I don't know how much of anything in the laptop is supposed to work. I can just tell good results from bad. Your attitude can stifle any complaint: LCD doesn't have good color reproduction? I think that topic is starting to get a little too much attention on this forum...think about it logically...how do you expect this ultra-thin, low power display to have color as good as a 50lb, 2sq. ft. CRT?

Why don't you try playing around with the power settings. The wifi card is directly underneath the right palm rest. You can go into the wifi card properties and adjust the transmitting power level and power management features of the card. You can also reduce heat generation by going into power manager and creating a new profile biased towards battery life and away from performance. This'll probably get you a couple/few degrees, and more battery life to boot.

furball4, I read some of what you wrote but im not gonna quote any of it, or reply to it. I stand by what I said, and what you want is to much. If you want everything to be perfect go buy a mac, mac users are exactly of your mentality.


On another note, I got the laptop last night and after using it for 3 hours straight yes the right palm rest gets hot but not to where I will complain that its sooooooo hot that I cant use the machine.

I am completely satisfied with everything.


But yea, the screen could have been better thats for sure, though im not complaining.

Edit: Sadly I wont be dismantling it to put AS5 on it. I looked at the maintenence PDF from IBM and i will have to take it apart completely, literally, to get the heatsink off. Compact design yes, easy to tinker with no.

edit 2: I actually like the heating wrist pad, I have wrist pains from the weight lifting that I do and the heating action is actually therpeutic.

Good ideas, I'll give them a shot today. I'm open to anything that works.

Saml01 wrote:edit 2: I actually like the heating wrist pad, I have wrist pains from the weight lifting that I do and the heating action is actually therpeutic.

I just hope you shower

I've gotta say that this might act as a nice palm heater during the winter, no joke.

Personally I would say if the palmrest on your X60 or X60s is too hot for you then return it if possible or have it serviced. If you have the Atheros wifi card, you could also try replacing it with the Intel wifi card. I have found that the Atheros does seem to run hotter.

There might also be a way to insulate the palmrest. Maybe there will be a future version with a new palmrest that might help in this regard.

tselling wrote: There might also be a way to insulate the palmrest. Maybe there will be a future version with a new palmrest that might help in this regard.

Wow, that seems like a really bad idea...I would think component failures and general instability would follow. It would be better to design the machine to pull the heat away from the harddrive and wireless card out a more convenient vent instead of containing the heat.

I don't think it's outrageous to expect to buy a laptop that isn't uncomfortable to use. I've had or used dozens of laptops in the last 5 years of all makes and models and this is the only one where I find it's uncomfortable to put my hands on the palm rest, so that's a major flaw in my opinion, and in a lot of people's opinions judging by this forum. If it doesn't bother you, great! Why even read these threads? If it does, then by all means read the threads!

I was saying it would be a bad idea to insulate the palmrest area without doing any other re-design to channel heat away from the area.

smvp6459 wrote:I was saying it would be a bad idea to insulate the palmrest area without doing any other re-design to channel heat away from the area.

Get a peice of heatsheilding they use on turboed cars and you are cherry.

http://www2.elecom.co.jp/accessory/cool ... /index.asp
or
http://www2.elecom.co.jp/accessory/cool ... /index.asp

Put one on the palm rest area and one of more at the bottom to help dispacth heat. It will dispacth heat and provide some shielding to your hand.

well,
frankly speaking, i don't feel hot in Right Wrist palmrest of X60s