Thinkpads Forum

I've been doing a little research on an ultraportable in the class of the X60. My main problem with the X60 is its lack of a touchpad - I'd really like to find a machine with both a touchpad and a pointing stick because my hands get tired when using just one for extended period of time. I don't need any fancy graphics or even particularly high performance. I like the idea of a small widescreen - it's 30% more pixels than XGA and looks like it would be easier to use on a plane. The Dell D420 looks pretty good - the two worst things about it are the 1.8" hard drive (I can overlook this for now - I expect bigger, faster drives of this type will be coming along in the next year) and that Dell generally sells pretty mediocre laptops. The Sony SZ series looks pretty nice and Sony's screens are generally excellent, but it's expensive and my past experience with Sony quality and support hasn't been the greatest.

Any other thoughts on this class of machine? Anyone know what's next for the X-series? Any rumors of a wide-screen version? For my tastes, a widescreen X-series with a touchpad would be pretty much perfect.

Thanks,
Jay

jayk wrote: Any other thoughts on this class of machine? Anyone know what's next for the X-series? Any rumors of a wide-screen version? For my tastes, a widescreen X-series with a touchpad would be pretty much perfect.

Jay, if I were you, I would have given a very close look Fujitsu P7120.

I have been using Fujitsu ultraportables (P2120 and P5020D) for the last 5 years, never had the tiniest problem with their hardware and was overall very happy with them.

Their support is friendly, competent and helpful, prices are competitive (search newegg and ebay) and build quality is superb (made in Japan).

Also, they have an inbuilt DVDRW and great battery life, enhanced by a few battery options including a bay battery.

The only thing that swayed me from them towards X60s is the 1.8" HDD of the former. Othewise I would not have thought twice about
buying P7120 as my next machine.

I would recommend the above Fujitsu *iff* you are indeed set on having a trackpad/touchpad pointed device as well. None of the X Series Thinkpads have ever offered the Dualie UltraNav Trackpoint/Trackpad combo and it doesn't appear to me if the future X Series models well either since, at least within a tens model number, they share the same chassis and form factor. If it doesn't have it know, it is pretty likely that the next iteration, barring an extreme move and a new series numbering for the X Series aong with a chassis re-design (again, unlikely), is going to use the same chassis and form factor as the current X60/s.

OK widescreen is a personal choice, i'm not a fan but I can understand it for some people, there will not be a widescreen X6* thinkpad so there is a while to wait for a thinkpad widescreen ultraportable.

Your touchpad request I don't feel is a personal choice and I cannot understand - I am committed to enlightening the world to the benefits of the trackpoint. Buy an X60, use it for a week, and then send me a thankyou PM for helping to show you the light - you will be faster and more comfortable using the trackpoint than you could ever be using a touchpad, plus the buttons on that P7120 look pretty unusable to me.

Please also do not underestimate the drawbacks of a 1.8" drive in both speed and capacity - it is the main reason I was not a fan of the thinkpad X4* range - i also have doubts about much larger/faster drives in this form factor as, with solid state memory lowering in price, this will be used soon in situations where size is an issue.

There really isn't enough space on the current X60 chassis for a touchpad in addition to the Trackpoint; really, the Trackpoint should be given a fair chance here and, given time, will make you more efficient than the touchpad alone (don't *make* me pull out the ergonomics research papers from IBM's Labs ).

SSDs still have a way to go, but have proven themselves in special situations where speed, large HDD level capacity, and solid state operation are required.

As for the Thinkpad Widescreen Ultraportable...Oh I don't know; Z60t/Z61t anyone? Those look really good and are pretty sweet from a mobility/looks standpoint as well.

jayk wrote: My main problem with the X60 is its lack of a touchpad

The real problem is the lack of a DVI port either on the notebook or on the ultrabase.

Zeitgeist wrote:The real problem is the lack of a DVI port either on the notebook or on the ultrabase.

http://www.engadget.com/2005/10/06/vtbo ... i-pc-card/

Just a little suggestion if your hand gets tired using the trackpoint. I've seen a lot of people fighting with it by using their index finger , but there is a way to use it for hours without any stress. This is for the right hand -- similar trick works for the left hand.
Put your hand over the keyboard sideways, with the palm facing toward the left side of the palmrest and your thumb up in the air. Without turning your hand, put the tip of the little finger on the K (on an English keyboard -- for other keyboards, that is a key on the third row from bottom, the middle of that key lines up with the the right end of the space key). Without moving your little finger, cup your hand a little bit as it you were holding an egg between the tips of your fingers, and let your thumb fall until it touches the left button for the trackpoint. At this point the tip of your middle finger should touch the trackpoint. That's the one you want to use instead of any other finger. Keep your hand slightly cupped and relaxed and your wrist straight as you press against the trackpoint. Works for me, for hours and days on end.

snife wrote:Buy an X60, use it for a week, and then send me a thankyou PM for helping to show you the light - you will be faster and more comfortable using the trackpoint than you could ever be using a touchpad

For a long time, I thought the trackpoint was easier to use too, until I bought the Dell Inspiron 700m which only had a touchpad and so I was forced to learn to use it well. After a year or so of using the touchpad, I could use it faster than trackpoints, and it's much less tiring, too. Not all touchpads are that easy to use, however. For example, the touchpad of the T43 is quite far from the keyboard, so jumping back and forth between it and the keyboard can slow you down quite a bit. But the touchpad of the 700m is much closer to the keyboard. So if you have the patience to learn to use touchpads, you should definitely get a laptop with one, though you need to make sure it's close to the keyboard.

Anyway, when I use a trackpoint, I set the speed of the mouse pointer to the maximum so that I don't have to push it as hard. Otherwise my fingers get tired quickly. I also alternate between the two hands.

jayk wrote:I like the idea of a small widescreen - it's 30% more pixels than XGA and looks like it would be easier to use on a plane. The Dell D420 looks pretty good - the two worst things about it are the 1.8" hard drive (I can overlook this for now - I expect bigger, faster drives of this type will be coming along in the next year) and that Dell generally sells pretty mediocre laptops.

I too much prefer the 12" wide screen (WXGA) to the 12" regular screen due to the additional number of pixels. I think the Dell Latitude X1 would be perfect for you. Yeah, Dell used to be really bad, but have been getting better IMO. The Inspiron 700m that I just sold felt at least as solid as the Thinkpads, and the Latitude line is usually better than the Inspiron line.

Thanks for all the helpful advice. I use a T42 as my main machine at work, so I'm pretty familiar with both IBM's pad and pointing stick. I seem to be ok as long as I switch back and forth (and alternate my left and right hands as much as possible).

I decided to order a core solo D420 off Dell's outlet site. It's a 'scratch-and-dent', but it's pretty loaded and came in just under $1K. I'm not expecting Thinkpad-level build quality, but it sounds like Dell has improved from years past. I'll post a short review once I get it and have had time to play with it.

jayk wrote:Any other thoughts on this class of machine? Anyone know what's next for the X-series? Any rumors of a wide-screen version? For my tastes, a widescreen X-series with a touchpad would be pretty much perfect.

Sorry to see that you're going with a Dell, but we all have to make our own choices. Lenovo has a new blog on design at http://www.lenovoblogs.com/design/ - try leaving a comment there about what you'd like to see in the future.

jayk,
Many people, like yourself, place great emphasis on using either a trackpoint or touchpad. I think the keyboard is far more important. I've never used an IBM keyboard until recently, but from moving back and forth to multiple workstations, I have become convinced that I would benefit from standardizing on one keyboard. I bought an ultranav keyboard about 3 months ago to try it out and to learn if I was at least willing to live with a trackpoint when nothing alse would be available. (I plan on buying an x60s.) As pianowizard mentioned, sometimes the fingers ache from the use of their muscles in an unfamiliar way, but the excellence of the keyboard far outweighs, IMHO, any downside to a trackpoint. I can always buy a little rodent, if I never completely adjust to the trackpoint. The benefit of having a laptop with almost the identical key layout as my desktop is far more conducive to sustained work productivity, for myself, than the issue of trackpoint or trackpad. I don't know who designed the x60s, but I have come to agree with their decision to include a full size keyboard in an ultraportable, even if at the cost of losing a touchpad.

I find that typing for any length of time on my T42 invariably results in wrist pain. For me, I think it's the position of my wrists on a 'normal' (flat) keyboard as well as the smaller size of any laptop keyboard. I can type on my Microsoft Natural Keyboard for as long as I want with no trouble. As an aside, I've also stopped using regular mice on my primary work machines - I use the Evoluent VerticalMouse2 and have far less wrist pain than I used to.

As far as pointing devices go, there are some operations I prefer doing with a touchpad and others with the pointing stick. If I'm mainly typing I tend to go to the stick more so I don't have to move my hands much, but if I'm just surfing the web I prefer the pad because I can scroll and select with it as well as point. IBM eventually realized having both was a good idea with the T-series (I think they added the pad around the T30 days).

I didn't know about the UltraNav keyboard - thank's for that.

In terms of durability, my opinion is Thinkpads can't be beat. We have several at work and all are still chugging along with no trouble, while we've had a number of Dell laptops fail. On the other hand, my wife has a Latitude at work that keeps chugging along despite her having dropped it more than once onto some pretty hard surfaces. For one last anecdote, my sister is now on her third T-series and complains constantly about what junk they are (not sure what she does to them).

Thanks for the link on the Lenovo design page. I plan to check that out and write in a comment or two.

- Jay

snife wrote: Your touchpad request I don't feel is a personal choice and I cannot understand

I hate the world also. I am also commited to forcing people into indulging in small rubber analogue sticks.

jayk wrote:I find that typing for any length of time on my T42 invariably results in wrist pain. For me, I think it's the position of my wrists on a 'normal' (flat) keyboard as well as the smaller size of any laptop keyboard. I can type on my Microsoft Natural Keyboard for as long as I want with no trouble.

If you get wrist pain with a thinkpad keyboard then you would get wrist pain with any notebook keyboard. I think the trouble might be your Microsoft keyboard - I used to love the Natural keyboards when they first came out but I found that constantly switching between a normal keyboard and the natural keyboard not only reduced my typing speed but gave some comfort difficulties when switching. I use the ultranav external keyboards now.

Get the Thinkpad.

I used to be an avid Sony lover, but they went downhill big time post-K Series quality-wise. I looked at an SZ in the store, and the keyboard was the most dispicable thing ive every tried to type on. The screen bounces, and its overpriced. If youre gonna get a Dell, I suppose the business models are better than the consumer ones, but thats like saying a Kia Sephia is better than a Kia Rio, when you could have a Mercedes.

snife wrote:Your touchpad request I don't feel is a personal choice and I cannot understand - I am committed to enlightening the world to the benefits of the trackpoint. Buy an X60, use it for a week, and then send me a thankyou PM for helping to show you the light - you will be faster and more comfortable using the trackpoint than you could ever be using a touchpad, plus the buttons on that P7120 look pretty unusable to me.

Having used pointing sticks for years, I have no gone 100% dedicated -- when my buckling-spring IBM model M2 keyboard died, I bought an UltraNav external keyboard, and ditched even the mouse altogether. The stick allows your hands to stay on the keyboard, much better than a mouse and still better than a touchpad.

snife wrote:Please also do not underestimate the drawbacks of a 1.8" drive in both speed and capacity - it is the main reason I was not a fan of the thinkpad X4* range - i also have doubts about much larger/faster drives in this form factor as, with solid state memory lowering in price, this will be used soon in situations where size is an issue.

And years after the x40 was introduced (with the 1.8" drive) the 1.8" drives are still pathetically small and slow. No thanks!

tomh009 wrote:And years after the x40 was introduced (with the 1.8" drive) the 1.8" drives are still pathetically small and slow.

And expensive!

pianowizard wrote:

jayk wrote:Yeah, Dell used to be really bad, but have been getting better IMO. The Inspiron 700m that I just sold felt at least as solid as the Thinkpads, and the Latitude line is usually better than the Inspiron line.

I had a Latitude C400, and that laptop had more repairs in three years as all my other (mostly Toshiba and one Zenith) laptops put together in over ten years. Based on what I have seen of the D-series Latitudes at the office (Dell is our corporate standard), the build quality has not improved noticeably, and is certainly nowhere near the x3*/x60 levels.

P.S. Virgin Atlantic and Korean Airlines won't let you fly with your Dell unless you check the battery in your luggage ...

pianowizard wrote:Anyway, when I use a trackpoint, I set the speed of the mouse pointer to the maximum so that I don't have to push it as hard. Otherwise my fingers get tired quickly. I also alternate between the two hands.

The new "large-format" TrackPoint covers (concave and convex) are, I find, much less tiring on your fingers than the old cat's tongue ones.

tomh009 wrote:

pianowizard wrote:Anyway, when I use a trackpoint, I set the speed of the mouse pointer to the maximum so that I don't have to push it as hard. Otherwise my fingers get tired quickly. I also alternate between the two hands.

The new "large-format" TrackPoint covers (concave and convex) are, I find, much less tiring on your fingers than the old cat's tongue ones.

I totally agree, but touchpad is still less taxing.

pianowizard wrote: I think the Dell Latitude X1 would be perfect for you. Yeah, Dell used to be really bad, but have been getting better IMO. The Inspiron 700m that I just sold felt at least as solid as the Thinkpads, and the Latitude line is usually better than the Inspiron line.

OT: OK, I have never seen a reasonable keyboard in an Inspirion, your milage may vary........

For the X1: it is not the normal Dell. It is a Samsung.

Samsung doesn´t sell their laptops in the US. Here in europe they are highly regarded.

If they would have a trackpoint I could as well have a x10+ instead of the t42.

So If you have to choose between x60s and X1 go by your ergonomic preferences and don get scared by the dell sticker.

cheers

ralf

jayk wrote:I've been doing a little research on an ultraportable in the class of the X60. My main problem with the X60 is its lack of a touchpad

Ugh. Please don't say that so loudly. Silly marketeers at Lenovo might hear you.

I would echo another poster's suggestion to try the Fujitsu 7120. Of all the fujitsu line, it is the only one with a decent keyboard, and it happens to be a 10.4" screen, something you can't get in a thinkpad.
The touchpad works well, if you must have one.

For a unit that has both, look at the HP tablet series. Compact, but heavy.

I've had a Dell D420 for just over a week now and so far so good. I really like the widescreen... Lenovo should definitely go in this direction for their subnotebooks. I used an X32 for a while, and 1024x768 felt too cramped. 1280x800 is only 30% more pixels, but it's much easier to open two documents side-by-side than on the XGA display, plus it's great for movies. Brightness/contrast/viewing angle are all decent... not as good as some of the really nice Sony displays I've seen, but as good as any Thinkpad I've used.

I like the keyboard. It feels solid and has good feedback. No squishy spots (at least not on mine).

I really like having both the trackpoint and touchpad. This was an essential requirement for me because my wife hates the trackpoint and we'll be taking this machine along on trips. I like being able to switch between the two depending on what I'm doing.

The machine feels fast enough. Mine only has the Core Solo U1300 (1.06GHz), but with 1.5GB of RAM and the 60GB drive. I haven't done any hard-core crunching, but things like Photoshop Elements and MS Office apps load and run well enough. The machine also starts up pretty fast, even with Norton anti-virus and some other junk installed.

One thing that has really impressed me so far is how cleanly this machine goes into and comes out of standby/hibernate. My T42 has been flaky in this way since it was new (sometimes it can literally take several minutes to wake up). I imagine the problem on my Thinkpad is some sort of driver thing, but IBM should have sorted that out before they released the machine. Somehow Dell has nailed the drivers on this machine.

I have the 6-cell battery and I seem to get around 3-1/2 hours while surfing the web (over wifi) with the display around 3/4 brightness. Firefox can be a bit of a CPU pig with lots of tabs open, so if I were just doing Word I might get a little more time. I've heard the 8-cell battery sort of hangs out of the case in some strange way, so I plan to get a second 6-cell for travel.

The machine has a SD slot built-in, which is convenient for me because my camera uses this type of media.

Wifi performance is good. I much prefer the Intel Proset utility to IBM's Access Connections.

Sound quality is good through the headphone jack - there is only one built-in speaker that isn't very good but who cares.

The build quality is certainly sub-Thinkpad, but it's not bad. The case feels pretty solid and it doesn't creak when I pick the machine up by a corner. It feels tighter than other Latitudes I've used in the past. I would imagine the harddrive is pretty tough, being meant for things like iPods.

The machine gets a little warm on the bottom right with heavy use, but I haven't found it uncomfortable. It might be a little annoying if one were wearing shorts. I haven't noticed any heating in the wrist-rest area. This unit should stay quite a bit cooler than the Core Duo models - the U1300 is rated at 5.5W, compared to 9W for the lowest-end Duo.

The machine is very quiet. When it starts to heat up a small fan turns on but this is barely audible on my machine. I can't hear the hard drive at all unless I put the machine right up to my ear.

I bought my unit off Dell's outlet site as a 'scratch-and-dent' model. Except for the sticker on the bottom indicating it's a refurb I couldn't tell it wasn't brand new. Using a 10%-off coupon, it came to just over $900 with a 3-year on-site warranty (this included the 1.5G RAM, wifi, 60GB drive, Win XP Pro and external DVD/CD-RW). I'm not sure I would have spent hundreds of dollars more on a 'new' one, but for this price it was a terrific deal.

A few nits:
Between the upper set of mouse buttons and the touchpad there is a part of the case that my thumb keeps banging into when I'm trying to press the left mouse button while using the pointing stick. The upper buttons are pretty small and seem to be recessed a bit more than they should be. I'm learning to adjust, and the other set of buttons is just fine.

The Dell AC adapter is a big ugly honking thing. Why can't they make nice sleek AC-adapters like Lenovo? Their AC/DC 'travel' adapter is even worse (it weighs about half as much as the D420!). There are some third-party adapters that are smaller, but it's not clear they will charge the battery.

The bezel around the screen is a bit wider than it needs to be. It doesn't look as cool as some other machines, and there is clearly room for another 0.5-1" of diagonal in screen size.

No keyboard-light LED like the TP.


My conclusion, so far, is very positive. I would recommend this machine to a friend (this is the first Dell laptop I've said that about). I'd love to see Lenovo build something like this (with the widescreen and the touchpad), but it doesn't sound like that's on their roadmap. I'll try to post again in a month or two once it's been banged around a little.

jayk said:

The Dell AC adapter is a big ugly honking thing.

Excellent description. My wife has a Dell Inspiron 630m, the AC adapter is big, ugly, heavy and passes for high tech in an old Flash Gordon movie. I had trouble believing how unattractive it was when she got it. On the plus side, though, it does not get hot and the permanently attached rubber strap is nice for transporting the cables wrapped up with the adapter. Saves looking for a rubber band.

jayk wrote:My conclusion, so far, is very positive. I would recommend this machine to a friend (this is the first Dell laptop I've said that about). I'd love to see Lenovo build something like this (with the widescreen and the touchpad), but it doesn't sound like that's on their roadmap. I'll try to post again in a month or two once it's been banged around a little.

I am glad to hear that you are happy with this sexy-looking 3.0-pounder. Dell laptops really aren't as bad as what many people on this board claim they are. Their India-based customer service reps can be a problem for North American customers, but their high-end products (such as the one you bought, or the 700m that I owned until last month) are usually fairly good. I agree with you that the 12-inch widescreen and the touchpad are both highly appealing features.

jayk wrote: My conclusion, so far, is very positive. I would recommend this machine to a friend (this is the first Dell laptop I've said that about). I'd love to see Lenovo build something like this (with the widescreen and the touchpad), but it doesn't sound like that's on their roadmap. I'll try to post again in a month or two once it's been banged around a little.

I looked really hard at the D420 and concluded that its only advantage was the slightly higher res screen, dual pointing devices, and superior docking solution. (Dell docks have PCI slots...)

If you look at how much Lenovo has managed to pack into the X60's weight class, though, you wonder pretty hard what Dell is doing with the D420. The X60's battery life is significantly superior to the D420, despite the fact that the X60 has a far superior processor and hard drive.

The widescreen format is coming to all ThinkPads including the X models soon. 4x3 format will soon be history. As I understand, by 2008 everything will be widescreen.

archer6 wrote:The widescreen format is coming to all ThinkPads including the X models soon.

Is that a rumor or confirmed insider news? A widescreen X Thinkpad is what I have been waiting for.