A few things before I buy an X60s

[Spif]

After several months of research, I have almost decided to buy a Thinkpad X60s.

However, before I place my order I really would like to know the following:

1. I will likely be using the laptop for the next 5 years. Because of that, I'm an very intersted in knowing how upgradeable the machine is. Can I upgrade it with a Core 2 Duo? Is it easy to replace broken parts, for instance if the screen gets too many scratches or cracks? How about the keybord?

2. How long battery life would you estimate I can get with this system:

Core Duo, 1.66 Ghz, LV
512 MB RAM
Bluetooth (probably won't be used much)
Fingerprint reader
8-cell battery

3. Can you recommend any good, small and durable carrying cases? It should only have room for the laptop, an extra battery and a power adaptor.

4. Just out of curiosity, how long does it take to recharge the 8-cell battery?

5. Will there be a Core 2 Duo X60s soon?

If there's something else you feel I should know about the X60s, please do tell

[smvp6459]

1. My understanding is that broken parts are generally replaced pretty easily by the user...people here have changed keyboards and I imagine the screen is pretty doable. You should go to Lenovo's website and check out the maintenance manuals. As for the processor...I had heard it is soldered on, so no upgrading it unless you have some serious electronics skills. Again, the manuals might have more details.

2. Probably 6-8 hours. It depends on what you're doing (intensive HD or CPU tasks), whether you're using the WiFi and Bluetooth, and how bright you like your screen. The more memory you stick in the machine, the less you'll need to go to the HD. I think a number of people have complained that 512MB isn't enough for this machine. I have 2GB, which let's me disable the swap file entirely.

3. I have a sleeve from here:
http://www.sfbags.com/products/sleeveca ... ecases.htm
I love it. You can turn it into more of a bag by adding a full cover, a strap, and a little piggy-back pouch that could hold your essentials.

4. Charging is slower than you would expect...probably close to parity or a little bit faster than the fastest you can discharge the battery. Someone in a previous post mentioned that batteries last longer if they're charged more slowly so that must account for the slowish charge times.

5. I thought someone said the new core 2 duos will ship sometime in November. Who knows when low voltage Core 2 will be available. The new Santa Rosa chipset is supposed to be released sometime in the 2nd quarter of 2007.

Misc:
If you go between two locations: get a second AC adapter so you don't have to carry it with you everywhere you go.

Choosing between the Atheros and the Intel card may be difficult. According to some, Atheros consumes more power but sees more APs and connects better. The Intel card uses less power but sees fewer APs and some people have had connection issues. There's debate over which card creates more heat on the right palm-rest area. I think the debate is leaning towards Atheros producing more heat but I doubt the debate is over.

Also, someone (Archer I believe) on the Forum selected the L2300 processor instead of the L2400 and claims that heat issues are much less noticeable with the L2300 vis a vis the L2400 and his company owns some of each.

Finally, I like having the 4-cell slimline battery in addition to the 8-cell. I use the 4-cell on a day to day basis because the machine is lighter and the form factor is smaller. I keep the 8-cell in storage for times when I'm travelling.

[Spif]

Thanks for the reply!

Unfortunately I am not able to choose what components I want in the laptop, as I live in Denmark. We only have _one_ X60s build from Lenevo, so I'm stuck with Bluetooth and Intel Wifi. There are other models available at some retailers, but they are very, very expensive as they are customized British or German machines with a Danish keyboard.

Can't find any X60s' with the L2300 at all, guess they are out of production.

[smvp6459]

I think you can replace the Intel card with an Atheros card yourself, if you were able to obtain the part. Replacing the memory and harddrive yourself is pretty easy to do if you so choose.

As for the L2300, you can't choose it when ordering online even in the U.S., but you can order the specific model listed in the tabook.pdf by contacting Lenovo directly...at least in the U.S. I'm not sure how things work in Denmark; I've seen posts of people in Europe buying from retailers in the U.S. or Canada to obtain specific models they want but I'm not sure how that works for warranty coverage, etc.

I must say that the X60 with the T7200 looks impressive...it might get me to buy the X60 if I was debating between that and the current X60s.

[SkiBunny]

The core 2 duo models of X60 are already being sold here and in asia. Who knows when the LV version will be available (not til next year anyway). They only marginally improve performance and draw more power. 64-bit computing is not advantageous in the sindows world yet, nor will it be for a year or tow, but if you really keep your machine for 5 years then the 64-bit platform will become useful. You cannot upgrade the processor on an X60s afterwards.

You may want to check the X60 model sold in denmark to see if its specs more closely align with your needs in terms of their preconfigurations. The two machines are virtually identical (i've worked with both at IBM), and what really makes the difference is the pre-configured options (eg. atheros or intel, bluetooth or not, evdo or not, etc) rather than the choice of model. For what it's worth (not much), IBM Corp recently standardized on X60 (and T60) for company use.

[SkiBunny]

I must say that the X60 with the T7200 looks impressive...it might get me to buy the X60 if I was debating between that and the current X60s.

Yep for the same price as my 170997U, you get the same specs with a core 2 duo, and a larger (120gb) drive.
But... lenovo has replaced Atheros with the feeble buggy intel 3945 card on all the new core 2 duo X60 offerings in the U.S.

[SkiBunny]

I think you can replace the Intel card with an Atheros card yourself, if you were able to obtain the part. .

I've seen the atheros card listed on ebay for only ~$50 i think, and the vendor who sells many of these also has excellent description with pictures of how to instal it. Doesn't look difficult.

[Spif]

How much more power does the Core 2 Duo use? Will it significantly lower battery life?

My reasons for buying an X60s, is that it is much cheaper then the X60 for some reason. But I think I'm going to wait for the Core 2 Duo machines to appear at retailers here before I buy a Thinkpad, hopefully the old X60 models will drop in price.

Regarding wireless cards, I'm probably sticking with Intel. I'm using Linux primarily, and since their drivers are open-source (not sure about firmware) the card will work flawlessly at some point. It is iwp2200 all over again.

[tomh009]

I've seen the atheros card listed on ebay for only ~$50 i think, and the vendor who sells many of these also has excellent description with pictures of how to instal it. Doesn't look difficult.

On the X31 it's four screws to pop off the keyboard, and then simply remove the existing mini-PCI card (two clips plus two antenna connectors). Insert new cards and replace the keyboard. (Have done this three times now, once to upgrade to B/G, and then to A/B/G, and one more time to B/G on my wife's X31.)

The only trick (at least on the X3/X4 series) is that if the BIOS doesn't recognize the card, you'll get an 1802 error on boot and you'll need to patch the BIOS (unless the X60 no longer does this check).

[First Light]

3. I have a sleeve from here:
http://www.sfbags.com/products/sleeveca ... ecases.htm
I love it. You can turn it into more of a bag by adding a full cover, a strap, and a little piggy-back pouch that could hold your essentials.

Finally, I like having the 4-cell slimline battery in addition to the 8-cell. I use the 4-cell on a day to day basis because the machine is lighter and the form factor is smaller. I keep the 8-cell in storage for times when I'm travelling.

Great bags IMO and I have the same bag - I purchased one of their bags for my T42p several years ago, and like it so much I ordered one for my X60s. These bags are well made of quality material, very tough, and the 60s 4 and 8 cel batteries both fit fine. Here is what my receipt says in re the sleeve model #: SCHF21-18 Sleeve case - Horizontal Orientation - Ballistic Flap (you can get it as just a sleeve, or with a flap - the flap costs a few dollars extra) - Size 21. Cost was $53 + 6 shipping.

I also recommend getting both batteries and two power bricks as I do what smvp does and find both both extras invaluable.

[dfumento]

Try to get someone in USA to buy an X60 or X60s (whatever is cheapest) and buy the Danish keyboard as a spare part. Get the international warrany. You can easily replace the keyboard yourself. All of these models are marvelous, so just get the cheapest unit that has what you need (e.g. if you want the WWAN). I'd recommend the 8-cell battery. Prices might be going down because of new model announcements on the old models. If you want, you can pay more but you won't notice much of a difference in your day to day activities.
I'd just be certain that when you make your purchase that you contact sales and ensure you are getting the free upgrade to Vista coupon (get it by email/writing). You may have to wait a few more days to purchase before the coupons are available.

Too many people spend too much for a laptop. The X60(s) is the right model to get, but don't worry about faster CPUs, etc.

Just be certain to add 1 GB RAM stick bought from www.newegg.com or some other reliable supplier.

For a case, I use this verticle sleeve (the smallest model) without any other sleeve. http://www.sfbags.com/products/vertigo/vertigo.htm

I doubt you'll keep the unit for five years -- the units in 2-3 years will be so much superior to those today (e.g. much longer battery life and performance). Get the three year warranty and sell on ebay before the warranty is up to keep the resale value up.

[Spif]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate all this!

Having someone in the US buy the laptop for me would be ideal, both because it is cheaper and I can configure it. However, I don't know anyone IRL over there. I'd rather not get scammed...

dfumento: In my experience, battery life hasn't improved a whole lot since Pentium M showed up. My 2-year-old laptop is as good as most laptops you can buy today, including battery life. Around 3 hours seems to be very common. Has Intel stated that battery life will be significantly improved the next few years, are are you just assuming this will happen?

64-bit is not very important to me. It's nice to have, but i386 is so widespread that most programs and operating systems will support it for several years to come. Battery life, on the other hand, means everything to me.

I take very good care of my electronic equipment (besides a few hardly-visible scratches on my laptop screen, it looks brand new. I'm not kidding.), so I'm sure my Thinkpad will still be in good shape after 5 years. Not sure about the internal parts though, can they last for that long?

[gunston]

pround of my X60s

[First Light]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate all this!

Having someone in the US buy the laptop for me would be ideal, both because it is cheaper and I can configure it. However, I don't know anyone IRL over there. I'd rather not get scammed...

I'm coming over in March if you can wait . . . . . . . . . . . .

[Spif]

Tempting. By buying from the US I shave off 33% of the price. Then I will only have to buy a Danish keyboard, which costs 100$ or so.

Where in Europe did you say you were staying?

[dfumento]

dfumento: In my experience, battery life hasn't improved a whole lot since Pentium M showed up. My 2-year-old laptop is as good as most laptops you can buy today, including battery life. Around 3 hours seems to be very common. Has Intel stated that battery life will be significantly improved the next few years, are are you just assuming this will happen?

If you read the reviews for the X60s with 8-cell battery, you'll see they get 7-8 hours.

I'm currently at a Starbuck's having my b-fast typing to you using Verizon EVDO on my X60s and it has 6:07 hours with 90% battery power remaining and 1/2 brightness.

If you use your battery a lot as I do, it is best to replace it every year or so because that is the limitation of the Li-ion technology. You'll notice that even if the laptop is warrantied for multiple years the battery still carries only a 1 year warranty.

Intel currently fabs it's Core Duo, Core 2 Duo chips on a 65 nm fab. In a 1 to 1.5 years or so it will be producing its most modern chips on a 45 nm fab and you'll see longer battery life.

In 3.5 years you'll see the next fab stepping with even better processing/battery life.

Maybe you can find a dealer in USA that ships internationally. Some people on ebay might be willing to do that for you as well.

[SkiBunny]

Can't you go buy your laptop in Germany, then bring it home with you? Isn't the EU an open market?
If not, buy it abroad, mail the (empty) box home and carry the laptop back... many ppl travel with a laptop so no pain-in-the-[censored] customs agent will bug you about it (not like you're carrying back a television).

If battery life is of paramount performance, I agree the best thing is to buy a new battery yearly or so. Working at IBM, i have carefully checked performance side-by-side of several new 170997u (x60) and 170469u (x60s) models. There is no perceptible difference in battery performance (supposedly 12 minutes longer on the x60s) or system performance (supposedly 10% faster on the X60) when i have settings the same and do only browsing/text work.

So get the cheapest X that meets your needs, and use the savings to buy a new battery each year - after about 300 cycles you'll want to replace the battery.

[SkiBunny]

Intel currently fabs it's Core Duo, Core 2 Duo chips on a 65 nm fab. In a 1 to 1.5 years or so it will be producing its most modern chips on a 45 nm fab and you'll see longer battery life.

In 3.5 years you'll see the next fab stepping with even better processing/battery life.

ARen't the main parameters affecting battery life the LCD draw and the battery technology?

I think we will need to see technological improvements in these in order to witness any significant improvement in battery performance.

[NeoMatrix]

...Maybe you can find a dealer in USA that ships internationally. Some people on ebay might be willing to do that for you as well.

I believe Euclid Computers will ship internationally....and there are many on this forum who have had positive experiences with them. I plan to buy an X60s in the next couple of weeks from them, as they can normally ship next business day (ordering directly from IBM may take a couple weeks or more)

Good luck!

[dfumento]

Check out costcentral.com -- their prices tend to be a bit cheaper than Euclid. As always, check out return policies in case you get stuck/dead pixels.

CPU usage makes substantial difference in battery time. X60(s) lasts much longer than X41 which has basically same battery, LCD.

[tomh009]

...Maybe you can find a dealer in USA that ships internationally. Some people on ebay might be willing to do that for you as well.

I believe Euclid Computers will ship internationally....and there are many on this forum who have had positive experiences with them. I plan to buy an X60s in the next couple of weeks from them, as they can normally ship next business day (ordering directly from IBM may take a couple weeks or more)

Given that Spif is in Denmark, he may want the keyboard with the handy øåæ characters, which are only used in Denmark and Norway. Yes, you can replace the keyboard afterward but by that time the hassle factor may exceed the net cost savings.

[tomh009]

So get the cheapest X that meets your needs, and use the savings to buy a new battery each year - after about 300 cycles you'll want to replace the battery.

I agree that a top-condition battery makes a big difference. But depending on how critical battery life is to you, you may not need to upgrade at quite 300 cycles yet. I'm at 644 cycles on mine right now (yes, that's multiple cycles per day ...) and still almost 75% capacity. You could probably do about 500 cycles before dropping to 80%. (Incidentally, the battery durability is quite good on the ThinkPads -- some of my co-workers' year-old Dells last less than an hour now.)

I will probably be replacing this battery when I drop to below 70% -- or maybe buying a shiny new X60 to go with the battery!

[gunston]

I believe Euclid Computers will ship internationally....and there are many on this forum who have had positive experiences with them. I plan to buy an X60s in the next couple of weeks from them, as they can normally ship next business day (ordering directly from IBM may take a couple weeks or more)

Good luck!

That's great, just go ahead and get a Substantial Power Notebook X60s !!!

[makeitcount]

Spif check your PM.

As a side note: Anyone know what the difference is between a product specifically produced for a country (for example Denmark or Germany) and a US product with a Danish (or German) keyboard?

[Spif]

I am interested in an X60s with the L2300 processor. They seem to be rather rare though, maybe you know a place where they have them?

I want one with the following specs:
L2300 processor
Fingerprint reader
Intel wireless card

Bluetooth would be nice, but not a must.

Can't find one in the product manual with both fingerprint reader and L2300. Does that mean they don't exist?

By the way, if I order one from the US, does the warranty then work in Denmark?

[asiafish]

The only trick (at least on the X3/X4 series) is that if the BIOS doesn't recognize the card, you'll get an 1802 error on boot and you'll need to patch the BIOS (unless the X60 no longer does this check).

The BIOS patch works great on X3x machine and I believe the X40, but the X41 did not allow it, which I learned the hard way. Make sure you get an actual IBM/Lenovo card for your X60, and that it is the PCI-e version and not the MPCI, which will not fit.

[Spif]

Got my new shiny Thinkpad X60s today with an extra 8-cell battery. It is so HAWT! I was quite surprised by it's size, though. I knew it would be small, but had not imagined it would be so tiny and lightweight. Best thing I ever bought, the laptop is perfect!

Thanks for all the advice guys! Much appreciated!

[smvp6459]

Enjoy it at its newest and shiniest. You'll eventually take it for granted, and then you'll see it through fresh eyes everytime someone with a heavy, bulky laptop is amazed by its size and weight.

[Spif]

Hehe :D

Can't wait to bring it to school, everyone in my class have 15" laptops that weigh around 3 kg.

[schmaud]

Spif check your PM.

As a side note: Anyone know what the difference is between a product specifically produced for a country (for example Denmark or Germany) and a US product with a Danish (or German) keyboard?

- keyboard layout
- software language
- cable for modem connection
- powercable ( power supply- wall)
- region code on dvd player (a limited times changable per software)
sometimes specific subsection of part manufactures
possible problems with warranty extension