Thinkpads Forum

So I'm attending law school in the Fall and am trying to decide between a Macbook and a Thinkpad x60s. I love the Macbooks however their portability scares me. I know they weigh around 5 pounds and I feel that might be heavy for a student commuting from home to school 5 days a week, lugging the computer around everywhere. The thinkpad x60s weighs around 3 pounds, however after dealing w/ PC issues on my previous Toshiba I kept telling myself my next laptop would be an Apple. Also this will be used as my only computer (so it will be personal use and business use) and I hate how the x60s lacks an optical drive. Is there anybody out there who is knowledgable about these two machines that would be able to give me an unbiased comparison (even though I AM at a thinkpad site)?? Thanks!

jdphc8 wrote:So I'm attending law school in the Fall and am trying to decide between a Macbook and a Thinkpad x60s. I love the Macbooks however their portability scares me. I know they weigh around 5 pounds and I feel that might be heavy for a student commuting from home to school 5 days a week, lugging the computer around everywhere. The thinkpad x60s weighs around 3 pounds, however after dealing w/ PC issues on my previous Toshiba I kept telling myself my next laptop would be an Apple. Also this will be used as my only computer (so it will be personal use and business use) and I hate how the x60s lacks an optical drive. Is there anybody out there who is knowledgable about these two machines that would be able to give me an unbiased comparison (even though I AM at a thinkpad site)?? Thanks!

The general consensus here (as you say, on a ThinkPad site!) is that the ThinkPads are better built, lighter and run cooler. But they are not Apples, of course.

That said, one option for you would be to run OS X on an X60 or X60s; it's reported to work well, with just a few limitations at this point. You might want to check out the threads in the OS X forum on this site. This one in particular applies to the X60:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=28966

There is also a lengthy hardware comparison thread here:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=31719

jdphc8 wrote:I hate how the x60s lacks an optical drive.

There isn't a single Thinkpad model that meets your criteria. I suggest that you get the HP nc2400 (about $1,400) or the Panasonic W4 (about $2,100). Both are 2.8 lbs and have internal optical drives. The HP has a widescreen and the Panasonic has a 4:3 screen, so the former gives you slightly more real estate.

But whatever you end up buying, avoid anything heavier than 4 lbs because you will be commuting to and from school 5 days a week. Both the Macbook and the T-series Thinkpads are 5.2 lbs.

pianowizard wrote:

jdphc8 wrote:I hate how the x60s lacks an optical drive.

There isn't a single Thinkpad model that meets your criteria. I suggest that you get the HP nc2400 (about $1,400) or the Panasonic W4 (about $2,100). Both are 2.8 lbs and have internal optical drives.

Or use an ultrabase with the X60/X60s to get an optical drive. In a pinch, you can carry it (and it'll still weigh no more than a MacBook) but leave it at home most of the time. Depends, of course, on how often you expect to need an optical drive (I rarely use mine).

Get the X60s and use an external USB 2.0 slim DVD burner when you need it.
http://www.techonweb.com/products/produ ... ?id=D05253

This is exactly what I do.

dfumento wrote: http://www.techonweb.com/products/produ ... ?id=D05253

That's shockingly cheap. Perhaps I should buy one.

Both are excellent options. The original MacBooks ran dangerously hot, but the new Core2Duo ones are nice and cool (about the same as the ThinkPad).

Portability is the only real issue, with the MacBook considerably heavier and with about half the battery life (compared to 8-cell X60s), but with a larger and nicer screen, built-in optical drive and of course, OS X.

When I was in law school, there were no Mac versions of the exam software, but now there are. Of course, with a MacBook you can also run XP using Boot Camp and take your exams with the Windows version, and have the stability and security of OS X for everything else.

I used a 12" PowerBook when I was in law school (4.6lbs) and loved it. While not as fast as the MacBook, it was more than fast enough for everything except serious games. You can probably find a refurbished PowerBook for far less than the cost of a MacBook or ThinkPad, which so long as you buy the 1.0GHz or faster 12", is a very reliable machine.

OS X on a ThinkPad is problematic. First off, as a law student, do you really want your computer running an OS that is ILLEGALLY hacked to run on an unsupported computer? You cannot buy OS X for the ThinkPad, you can only steel it, which is probably not the best way to start your legal education.

Legality aside, there are still issues. There is considerable mucking around required to make everything work, and then when the next patch or update comes along, you get to go through the mucking all over again. There are also software conflicts that do not exist on a real Mac. In general, if you want to run OS X as anything other than a toy or geek statement, best to do so on a real Mac.

Sadly, Apple has never made anything as small or light as an X-series ThinkPad, and if that is the priority, then that is what you should buy.

Having owned both for years (2 12" PowerBooks, a MacBook and X-series ThinkPads from X21 through X41, I currently only have an X22 as a backup computer that my 12-year-old daughter uses, and a tablet PC, which I would have killed for in law school, had they been available when I started in 2000. Honestly, that is where I would look, either the X41 tablet if you don't need the optical drive and need it right now, or an X60 tablet if you can wait a few months. If you need the optical drive, get a Toshiba Portege M400, which after about a month of use I am delighted with. X41T and X60T weight in the 3.5lb range, while the M400 is 4.5lbs, enough lighter than the MacBook to make a real difference.

asiafish wrote:Both are excellent options. The original MacBooks ran dangerously hot, but the new Core2Duo ones are nice and cool (about the same as the ThinkPad).

It can't be just the CPU, since the temperature difference was quite big, and Core 2 Duo isn't that much different from Core Duo in terms of heat dissipation. Apple must have done some serious engineering work. But, nevertheless, what you are saying is that the new Core 2 Duo MacBooks are cool enough, then, to actually use on a lap, at around 40C or so? Is that right?

asiafish wrote:OS X on a ThinkPad is problematic. First off, as a law student, do you really want your computer running an OS that is ILLEGALLY hacked to run on an unsupported computer? You cannot buy OS X for the ThinkPad, you can only steel it, which is probably not the best way to start your legal education.

Are you saying that the OS X licence that I can buy from apple.com restricts which manufacturer's hardware I can run it on? And is that a legally enforceable restriction?

The OS X license that you buy is for the retail version of OS X, and currently there is no retail Intel version.

To install OS X on a thinkpad involves downloading an illegally ripped image from a torrent site, which means pirated software. I've run OS X on a ThinkPad (without much success), but I never even pretended that it was acceptable according to Apple's license.

As for temperature, most of the heat on the old MacBooks were caused by an error in the assembly that had far too much thermal compound applied to the processor, so much that it did the opposite of what it was supposed to do, acting as insulation rather than a conductor. My guess is that this was the biggest change.

Of course that may be wrong. I remember the original 12" PowerBooks ran so hot that some users reported the case bottoms warping, but the second generation models, while still hot, where nowhere near the scorchers that the first generation were. The MacBook is an even more drastic improvement.

My MacBook ran at up to 80C, and the new ones run about 45 to 50C. Its still very warm, but not like it used to be.

I carried a Macbook around Germany for 10 days no problem. I think it is actually quite a decent size. I sold it after about 2 months because it lacked the build quality I wanted, didnt cut it on battery life, and was just generally below my standards. Size was of no concern to me, though.

Still, just get the X60. Its the better machine.

RUSH2112 wrote:I carried a Macbook around Germany for 10 days no problem. I think it is actually quite a decent size. I sold it after about 2 months because it lacked the build quality I wanted, didnt cut it on battery life, and was just generally below my standards. Size was of no concern to me, though.

Still, just get the X60. Its the better machine.

It should be considering it is the much more expensive machine. THe important thing to remember though is that hardware quality is only one part of the equation. OS X is a far less vulnerable and more stable OS than Windows, and at least when I was in law school, not having to worry about viruses and other malware was a huge advantage.

asiafish wrote:It should be considering it is the much more expensive machine.

Much more? $1370 vs $1099 is less expensive, but it's not night and day. And the MacBook is actually more expensive than the more comparable (and better-built) T60.

asiafish wrote:THe important thing to remember though is that hardware quality is only one part of the equation. OS X is a far less vulnerable and more stable OS than Windows, and at least when I was in law school, not having to worry about viruses and other malware was a huge advantage.

More stable? I think the only time my X31 has bluescreened was when I experimented with the freeware Omega video drivers. Otherwise I reboot maybe once a week, that's it. Windows XP is not the Windows 98 you might have run in school.

As for malware, good behaviour keeps them off your machine (at least it does from mine). And as OS X gains in popularity, it will do so with the malware authors as well ... even now, if true viruses on OS X are few and far between, other vulnerabilities certainly exist on OS X.

I am in no way saying that OS X is bad (heck, they are using a BSD kernel, and that's got to be good!) but it's not like there is a night-and-day difference in security and stability ...

You are wrong, the security difference IS night and day. There has been only one actual malware product in the wild for OS X about a year ago, one. How many malware products are on the loose for Windows? More than 100,000 last year alone.

OS X is safe enough to completely dispense with antivirus software, and of course no need for anti-spyware or anti-adware programs either, all of which are essential in Windows.

Not counting any of that, Windows is far less stable not in and of itself, but on account of all of the drivers that are well out of Microsoft's control. With Apple, everything is designed to run on a very small and finite number of computer configurations. No oddball video and network cards, no mix of old and new technologies, just a few basic architectures and subtle variations over the years. That is where the stability comes from, with the stability of BSD a bonus.

Windows has the registry to worry about, the anti-malware programs that are often as bad as an actual malware infection, drivers and components from a gajillion suppliers that don't always play nice together, and the list goes on.

I use Windows every day on my tablet PC, but the minute Apple comes out with a tablet of their own (OS X always included the Newton's ink system), I'll go back to the Mac. As it is, when an application hangs on Windows, quite often even multiple tries with the task manager won't kill it. On the Mac, one force quit and its gone, two if its accessing hardware. Blue screens aren't the only freezes and crashes we worry about in Windows, and Macs have far fewer of those behaviors.

T60 is the same weight (in 14" form), though not really cheaper. Cheapest MacBook is only $1100, and has some things that no T60s have. Widescreen (some like it, some don't), slot-loading drive (huge improvement over delicate tray), standard instead of optional bluetooth, and of course OS X and iLife, which no T60 comes with.

It is a different product in a different market.

If youre concerned about security but don't want to use OSX (or want a stable system), I'd suggest Linux; Gentoo if youre advanced enough. I used it for several years, but run Windows on my X60s due to driver problems under Linux.

Linux is fine In a hobby system, but for law school you want real is MS Office which means Mac or Windows.

asiafish wrote:Not counting any of that, Windows is far less stable not in and of itself, but on account of all of the drivers that are well out of Microsoft's control. With Apple, everything is designed to run on a very small and finite number of computer configurations. No oddball video and network cards, no mix of old and new technologies, just a few basic architectures and subtle variations over the years. That is where the stability comes from, with the stability of BSD a bonus.

Err, if you limit yourself to ThinkPad hardware (and thus ThinkPad drivers), how is that any different? On desktop systems there is freedom of choice in the Windows world (on Mac, you give up that freedom to forget about driver issues) for hardware selection, but if you are running a notebook, you are pretty much running the hardware the manufacturer makes available.

asiafish wrote:As it is, when an application hangs on Windows, quite often even multiple tries with the task manager won't kill it.

Are you killing it on the applications pane or on the process pane? If you use the process pane, it'll go away once you kill it, assuming you have permission to do so.

asiafish wrote:T60 is the same weight (in 14" form), though not really cheaper. Cheapest MacBook is only $1100 (...)

And at $1100, the low-end Mac costs 15% more than the T60. And the R60 is even cheaper ...

R 6O and T 60 don't come with OSX or i Life, and no, even with process pane apps often refuse to go away.

asiafish wrote:R 6O and T 60 don't come with OSX or i Life, and no, even with process pane apps often refuse to go away.

If your primary notebook criterion is "does it come with OS X", I believe your choices are limited to Apple, Apple and Apple. It all depends on what your priorities are ...

If this is your only computer you may want to go with the t60, or you could get the x60 and the base (which was already suggested). Keep in mind, the base is on sale at the lenovo site for real cheap. I do have a hard time believing the t60 would be too heavy, even with books, etc.

One selling point is that you can get a thinkpad for extremely cheap with a student discount. It's not easy to find on the site. Just google it, info is out there. People are getting like 65% off. It sounds crazy but from what I read it sounds true.

I now will try to give my two cents on the OS issue. I personally hate Windows, but face it, its hard to get around it for a desktop/laptop (depending on the software you use). Most people have problems with windows because they don't take care of there computers (lazy). I suggest you learn how to properly administer windows. This is not a crack on you, but you did say you have had problems with it. All my windows machines run great, no viruses, spyware, lockups, etc. It's easy once you learn, and it will help you in the future, even if you go with another OS. If you are dedicated enough to go to law school, you can learn Windows in your sleep. Again, this is not a crack on you. If you need some tips I will be more than happy to help. By the way, I almost only use freeware, so you don't have to worry about spending a ton on software.

One more thing. Have you looked into Linux. It is great. Google Ubuntu, its very user friendly. Along with that, the OS and all software for it is free and easy to install. Don't worry about the commands and console. You can learn all that as you go from google. I dual boot windows for adobe/macromedia products and use ubuntu for everything else. Sorry for the long post, I just like to help.

I just re-read an earlier post about Linux being for hobby systems and how you need MS office. If Linux is fine for hobby systems then I guess the majority of the Worlds servers are hobby systems, since more servers run Linux than any other OS. If that statement was directed towards the desktop/laptop market, then I guess you have never heard of open office. Its free and means you don't have to use MS office. It ridiculous to think you have to be a complete slave to Windows, which is the only thing that keeps windows alive. Well, that and there money and bullying tactics. You do have options, but it requires you to do some research. If it wasn't for adobe and my windows based cutomers I would never touch Windows.

deniro0311 wrote:I do have a hard time believing the t60 would be too heavy, even with books, etc.

At first I thought my 5.2lb 600E (same weight as the T60) was pretty light. Then I got the 4.1lb Dell Inspiron 700m and couldn't go back to the 600E. About half a year later, I got the 3lb TP240, and found the 700m too heavy. After the TP240, most laptops I have acquired weighed less than 3.5 lbs, with the lightest one being only 2.38 lbs (the Toshiba Portege R100). I can never go back to lugging around a 5 pounder, even though just two years ago I wouldn't have any problem doing it. It really depends on what one is used to.

deniro0311 wrote:I just re-read an earlier post about Linux being for hobby systems and how you need MS office. If Linux is fine for hobby systems then I guess the majority of the Worlds servers are hobby systems, since more servers run Linux than any other OS. If that statement was directed towards the desktop/laptop market, then I guess you have never heard of open office. Its free and means you don't have to use MS office. It ridiculous to think you have to be a complete slave to Windows, which is the only thing that keeps windows alive. Well, that and there money and bullying tactics. You do have options, but it requires you to do some research. If it wasn't for adobe and my windows based cutomers I would never touch Windows.

I use OpenOffice on Windows and Linux platofrms. I prefer it to Office myself. On top of that, its free, so you dont need to worry about pirating (or if youre a business, paying for) your office suite. The only good reason I might be restricted from Linux is the lack of a decent photo editor. I've got Photoshop 7 working under WINE, but that was a while ago. Not sure if CS2 runs at all. The GIMP, imo, is a piece of crap.

What I would do if I were you (and will do for myself if I ever get a distro running decently on this thing) is run XP under a virtual machine. I did this when I had my Mac and it was great for running windows only apps. Sure it will be a bit slower, but the machine is fast enough to handle most tasks under a vm, as long as youre not doing anything insane with it.

All that being said, I am about to try the latest Ubuntu on my laptop. While I do not like Ubuntu all that much, its great for laptops because of its out-of-the-box nature. Most things work right after install and you dont have to deal with configuring everything for hours, as you do with Gentoo and a few other distros. One of my favorite parts of Debian based distros is Apt (and emerge on Gentoo). So sweet, but I digress.

Anyway, give Linux a shot w/ OpenOffice and Windows on a VM if you still need Win apps. Truth be told, Linux has an equivalent for most Windows apps, and many of the major ones are included in the default GNU/Linux packages you get.

deniro0311 wrote:If Linux is fine for hobby systems then I guess the majority of the Worlds servers are hobby systems, since more servers run Linux than any other OS.

I don't know about most, as it's pretty hard to come up with firm numbers -- and even the word "server" is pretty vague. But a lot certainly do. My servers, on the other hand, all run FreeBSD.

deniro0311 wrote:If it wasn't for adobe and my windows based cutomers I would never touch Windows.

Photoshop and Illustrator (yes, they would run on OS X as well). Project. Outlook (no good substitute yet if you need to talk to a corporate email server). Visio. The HP 41C emulator. And, in the end, if you need to exchange a lot of documents, you do run into the limitations of OpenOffice, unless your colleagues run OpenOffice as well.

But it depends what apps you need. If you gotta have Visio, you gotta run Windows. If you gotta have iLife, you gotta run OS X. But many others can go open source ...

Not to get off the windows/mac/linux topic... but I can second the tablet idea that was brought up.

I'm using an x41t, and it's been spectacular -- both conceptually, and in practice. I've been saved by the inking feature on more than a few occasions where the clicking of a keyboard would not have been appropriate given the venue. I also find visual communication via. mindmaps, charts, etc. to be in line with my needs.

Main drawbacks on the tablet are if you A) have illegible writing, or B) have a hankering to code, play intensive games, or do a lot of graphics rendering. Given that you're a student, a tablet (x41t is lighter than the x60t) should be part of your consideration if you sway back to the dedicated windows side.

After carting my computer (Dell Inspiron 2100 - an ultraportable like the X60) back and forth 4 days a week during law school, I would suggest getting an X60 (or X60s)...especially if it is your only computer. You are going to want something "tough," "durable," and "light," and in my opinion the Thinkpad X60 series is it.

As for the OS choice, I hate Windows too....and would prefer OS X. However, you should consult with your school to see if their exam software can be run on a Mac. But aside from this, I agree that OS X is WAY more secure than Windows. There is a cool site, http://www.maclawstudents.com which talks all about tools for law students for macs...wish I had that when I was in school.... However, bottom line is that you don't want hassles. Stick with either windows or OS X on an Apple computer. You don't want to mess with the Hackintosh stuff with the stress of school. Don't mess with Linux either, as it will be hard to share files with your classmates/profs (i.e., OpenOffice isn't always compatible with M$ Word). However, there have been people successfully installing SLED 10 (or openSUSE) with the Linux Thinkpad tools on the Thinkpads, but it takes a little fiddling.

You should probably get a USB harddrive to backup your files to just in case something happens to your laptop. Also, it may be beneficial to get a dock (or X6 ultrabase) along with a bigger monitor to type papers, etc. Writing long document may be tough to edit on such a small screen, but it is doable.

Another idea, would be an X60 tablet (when they are finally released). You could get PDF's of your cases (from Westlaw), or scan your books to PDF files and highlight and annotate right there on the screen. Although it may be hard to take notes while in class with a tablet. You should ceck out http://www.studenttabletpc.com/ as they have some good tips on using the Micro$oft software, and a link on how to scan your books.

OpenOffice is not an acceptable replacement for legal work. Just take a properly formatted legal pleading from Word (as almost all legal pleadings from other attorneys will be) and open it in OpenOffice. You will be treated to lots of free entertainment as you try to fix the broken formatting. Thanks, but no thanks, in the legal field, you need real MS Word, and if you practice in Federal courts, you just might need real Word Perfect as well.

I personally love OS X, but am not the biggest fan of Apple's current laptop hardware. I agree that the MacBook is too heavy for law school use, and found the 4.6lb 12" PowerBook barely acceptable. An X60s would be my first choice for a conventional laptop for law school use (with a very aggressive backup routine and an X6 ultrabase). The X-series ThinkPads have traditionally been among the best built portable computers available.

Tablets and law practice go together very well, and I can think of many times in law school where a tablet would have been very handy. Its not the handwriting recognition that would be helpful, but the ability to draw simple sketches of cases, make quick and dirty charts at the speed of a fast instructor's mouth and have it all in a permanent, searchable record that can then be used on your all-important outlines, both for exam prep and studying for the bar exam. I spent lots of time trying in vain to make tables and charts with a conventional laptop when the instructor had already moved on, or making them on separate paper only to lose them by study time. Tablets are a natural fit.

The only problem with either the X60 or the tablet PC is Windows. As much as I hate Windows, however, you will notice from my sig that my primary computer is, gasp, a tablet PC running Windows. I hate the OS, but sadly its the only game in town. Before switching to tablets, I used a ThinkPad X41, which again ran Windows (the ever important MS Word requirement), and while I prefer OS X, the hackintosh option just didn't cut it for mission-critical law firm work.

What part of "no OS wars" is unclear?

Now, I don't have the time or the energy to separate the non-X60 messages out from this thread tonight, but I expect the back-and-forth about operating systems to stop immediately.

given weight, battery life, and quality of the hardware (thinklight, keyboard, overall durability,etc, etc) I would go with the x-series thinkpad, no question. this laptop gives you tons of capability in a small footprint. docking at home with a larger lcd is a great idea if you are concerned about screen real estate while working on projects. I formally used 3 different T21 laptops (at the same time), took on a x31 in 2004, and thanks to rock-solid warranty and great durability it is working as good as day 1 after 3 years. I have heard claims like this from mac owners, but note that for the mac hardware you have to *purchase* 2 additional years of mac warranty to match the default 3 years warranty with IBM. the x60 would be great for an on-the-go budding lawyer. good luck.

p.s. if i had to buy a laptop for spring i would buy a $300 - 400 acer laptop (widescreen) from microcenter to hold me over until the next chipset-ed x-series came out later in the year, but that's just me. : }

....this brings up an interesting scenario though. you generally don't want to get 1.0 of hardware (i.e. hybrid drives) so they can work out the bugs (look to the heat, discoloration, random shutdown of the core duo macbook from this past summer) and then again if you buy 1.1, maybe 2.0 is around the corner with the next great leap of technology. chicken and egg i suppose.