X61s has real ExpressCard or PCMCIA ?

[ComputerMinder]

I asked this before but in another thread with other info. I basically want to make SURE that I could use the Magma Express Box 1 with the X61s. They say that all I need is an Express Card slot.

But from what I understood the X61s doesn't really have an express card slot with full bus. So I am not sure... though the manufacturer of the Magma doesn't specifically ask for something ebsides Express card slot.

Here's the link to the card I am interested in who would let me put an external graphics card to drive some more monitors:
http://www.magma.com/products/pciexpres ... index.html

Anyone can answer that ?

[timendres]

Have you read this thread: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=45363?

[proaudioguy]

Have you read this thread: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=45363?

That thread appears to be inconclusive to me.

So does the new card work in the slot or not? Where is the adapter? Does this apply to X60 tablet?

[ComputerMinder]

Have you read this thread: http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=45363?

That thread appears to be inconclusive to me.

So does the new card work in the slot or not? Where is the adapter? Does this apply to X60 tablet?

ditto... waiting for more conclusive info. Can I connect this Magma ExpressBox1 ExpressCard to the X61s or can't I?

[SFWrtr]

On the X61 tablet, this is a combined PCMCIA slot that can accept Express cards with an adapter (not supplied). This is a 1x bus, so though it is compatible, it will not be as fast as the express card is probably capable.

If you check the tabook and the s has the same Ricoh chip set, it has the same slot.

Hope that helps.

[f.bazyk]

So, the other question then, what's the part number of this adapter?

[pxa270]

I can't contribute firm information, only more (hopefully educated) guesses. ExpressCard is a the new laptop slot that is internally basically PCIe x1 plus USB2. Externally it's available in the 34 and 54mm form factors, both incompatible with Cardbus/PCCard. Making a PCCard-ExpressCard adapter that accepts ExpressCards which only use the USB2 lanes internally is relatively simple. It requires no modifications on the computer side, the adapter just connects the right pins with a PCCard USB controller chip in between (these chips are cheap and widely available).

OTOH, to get a PCCard + "full" ExpressCard in one slot would require the pins on the computer side to be connected to both the PCCard controller and the Southbridge for the PCIe lanes. This is at least an order of magnitude more difficult and expensive, and the payoff is relatively low. That's why I believe the Lenovo adapter only works with USB2 based ExpressCards (despite the fact that Lenovo doesn't seem to mention this). Note that this is also what Dell did with the Latitude D420/D430, i.e., it has a PCCard slot that accepts USB2-only ExpressCards with an adapter. Their advertising of this feature is also vague and confusing: "Support 34mm ExpressCard via a USB interface through PCMCIA adapter" Consequently I believe the Magma ExpressBox will not work with the Lenovo adapter.

If my hunch is correct, there will be a lot of guesswork in buying ExpressCards for the X6x. as the manufacturers never tell you whether the cards are USB2 or PCIe internally. The really high bandwith cards such as Sata, GigE, FW800 are pretty much always PCIe. For low-bandwidth things like TV-tuners, card readers, Bluetooth and sound cards, it comes down to whether it's cheaper for the manufacturer to leverage a desktop PCIe or an external USB2 design. I'm guessing they'll be USB2 based most of the time. The 3G/UMTS/HSDPA ExpressCards are pretty much all USB2 based, since they're usually also available in the form of a USB dongle, but not as a PCIe card (3G makes little sense on the desktop).

[SFWrtr]

pxa270: You are correct about vague. What you describe is pretty much the specs for the Ricoh chip indicated in the tabook.

ComputerMinder: Seems like it would be reasonable to call Lenovo tech support, with the specs for the card you want available for comparison, and request the specs for the "express slot." Since you own the X61s, they should have no reason for not supplying the specs. Do not accept, "Well, I can't find that information..."

Please post what you learn!

Timendres: I think there was a change in the Ricoh chip used in the X61 series compared to the X60. Check the tabook for confirmation. I think the change doesn't make the express slot any better, though, only the SD.

[pxa270]

Hmm, the according to the tabook the X61 uses the R5C847, which Ricoh describes as

(...) a single chip solution offering six PCI functions (a PCI bus bridge to a PC Card, an IEEE1394, an SD Card, a MultiMediaCard, a Memory Stick, and an xD Picture Card via a PC Card) with an ExpressCard (USB Interface Type) switch.

That's still pretty vague, isn't it?
I guess the only ways to know for sure is to get someone high up in the Lenovo tech support chain, or to actually try some PCIe based ExpressCards.

My money is still on USB2-only ExpressCards. I think the most reasonable way to interpret "USB Interface Type" in Ricoh's snippet is that it only passes on the USB traces from the ExpressCard to the Southbridge. Otherwise it doesn't make much sense to me, as the Ricoh chip has nothing to do with the standard USB ports (which are directly connected to the Southbridge).

As an aside, there are also USB2-ExpressCards adapters available, where you plug the ExpressCard in the adapter, and the adapter in the USB port. But these have the same caveat that they don't work with PCIe based ExpressCards.

[tomh009]

This actually illustrates one of the issues with ExpressCards: an ExpressCard is not necessarily going to work in an ExpressCard slot, nor is another ExpressCard necessarily going to be able to take advantage of the performance of another ExpressCard slot. They (the ExpressCard association) should have specifically called them "ExpresCard/USB" and "ExpressCard/PCI" or something like that.

The same applies to "n" wireless -- relying on the (draft) standard name doesn't tell you whether it's 2.4 GHz, 5 GHz or both.

[smoothoperator]

we are screwed the PCI-E "slot" that is stated on the X61t's specs is merely no more than a circa f1994 PCMCIA slot .

[tomh009]

It's a CardBus slot, not a PCMCIA (though it is backward compatible with PCMCIA cards).

[pxa270]

The issue of incompatible ExpressCards is minor at best. Normal ExpressCard slots are the norm, and they accept both USB and PCIe based cards. I don't think the ExpressCard Association is (or should be) concerned about edge cases like ultraportables that want to hack in ExpressCard compatibility using an adapter. (Speaking of which, I bet Lenovo is just using something like this, note that they advertise ExpressCard Standard 1.2 compliance, even though they're USB only!)

BTW, a similar situation existed with PCCard in the past: 32-bit Cardbus cards didn't work in computers with 16-bit PCMCIA slots, although they would physically fit.

[tomh009]

It was a similar situation with CardBus and PCMCIA, yes, but at least you could tell by the name of the card where it would work and where it would not.

With external "ExpressCard" adapters and ThinkPad X series "ExpressCard" support (and an indeterminate number of other laptop manufacturers), it's less than clear, as can be seen from this discussion thread. Clearly naming the two ExpressCard variants (apart from the two physical sizes) would have reduced this confusion.

[pxa270]

It would certainly have helped the X60 and D420 owners, but I don't think the ExpressCard association anticipated adapters that take the USB only cards (or if they did, that it would occupy more than a tiny niche). In that light, I think leaving off USB/PCIe labling from the cards (which might be a source of confusion itself) is reasonable. And if the X61 adapter turns out to only accept the USB cards, Lenovo should take most of the blame for the confusion.

[tomh009]

Lenovo can take blame/credit for a low-end ExpressCard slot implementation, but confusion? How would you suggest a manufacturer should label an ExpressCard/34 slot that only supports ExpressCards that use USB connections? What's the clear term that describes that type of slot?

When you define a standard, and you decide to allow for a reduced-scope implementation (like a USB-only ExpressCard) you certainly should also realize that someone might actually use that.

[pxa270]

I don't think the ExpressCard Association envisioned/allowed for a reduced scope implementation on the computer side. (And leaving the choice of USB/PCIe on the card side to the card manufacturers is pretty sensible.) You won't find any laptop with an ExpressCard slot (as opposed to a Cardbus slot + adapter) that only supports USB based cards, so you don't need any terms other than ExpressCard (34/54).

The adapter manufacturer I linked to earlier is reasonably explicit about its limitations. Now if any laptop manufacturer decides to bundle their Cardbus only laptop with that adapter and advertises it as ExpressCard capable without further qualifications, that's clearly the manufacturer's fault.

[tomh009]

I don't think the ExpressCard Association envisioned/allowed for a reduced scope implementation on the computer side.

If they did not allow for that, we can expect ExpressCard Association to be issuing a cease-and-desist order to Lenovo (to stop using the ExpressCard trademark) any day now. If they do not force Lenovo to stop calling it "ExpressCard", then clearly they did not define a tight enough specification.

Shall we check on the situation in a month or two to see whether ExpressCard Association has taken action?

[pxa270]

From the ExpressCard website:

(...) ExpressCard-compliant host platforms must support both the PCI Express and USB interfaces. This includes a single PCI Express lane (x1) operating at the baseline 2.5Gbps data rate, in each direction, as defined in the PCI Express Base Specification 1.0a by the PCI-SIG. The host interface must also support the low-, full- and high-speed USB data rates as defined by the USB 2.0 Specification of the USB Implementers Forum. An ExpressCard module may use one or both of the standard interfaces depending on the application requirements.

So the specs are unambiguous: the computer must support both, the cards can use either. If the ExpressCard Association doesn't defend the use of the trademark sufficiently they certainly share some blame in the confusion. But the majority of the blame surely falls with the manufacturer who's misusing the trademark in the first place?

[zverg]

I don't see a problem with Lenovos implementation, though it would be nice if they were more obvious about it. On the T43, it had both an expresscard/54 and a cardbus slot, but that just isn't doable in a X-series obviously.

Lenovo chose to stick with cardbus, and soooo many people have cardbus cards (whether they be wifi, card readers, etc), unlike Apple who forced everyone into Expresscard (and the smaller one at that) with the MacBook Pro.

What Lenovo could have done is just made it an Expresscard/54 slot with an included "CARDBUS TO USB" adapter that you could put in the expresscard slot (or attach to your CARDBUS card) to allow cardbus cards to operate in the slot (sticking out a bit of course due to the size of the adapter).

or hell just give it an expresscard slot and include an external USB adapter for cardbus or something..

ok maybe Lenovo didn't make the right choice.

[ComputerMinder]

so bottom line can someone answer me if the X61s will support that or not?

http://www.magma.com/products/pciexpres ... index.html

[tomh009]

It will not, sorry.

[ComputerMinder]

It will not, sorry.

Thanks.