x60s => L7400 vs L2400 : silence and autonomy

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Perfect007 · #1 Post by **Perfect007** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:40 am

Hello everybody

First of all, sorry for my (very) bad english. I try to have a comprehensible language (french inside... ).

I'm going to buy my real first laptop : an IBM x60s.

I can choose one with a L2400 or a L7400 processor.
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Notebook-P ... 129.0.html

- L2400 LV, 1.66 GHz, 15 W, FSB 667 MHz => Core Duo
- L7400, 1.50 GHz, 4 MB L2 Cache, 667 MHZ FSB, VT - 17 Watts => Core 2 Duo (64 bits support)

I want absolutely a silence laptop and with the more autonomy (the L7400 processor seems to 'consume' (?) more).
Which is the best?

The L7400 is less expansive in France.

L2400 => 970 euros (about 693 $ (1€=1,4$), but we have TVA...) : Xp pro, battery 4 cell (3 hours)
L7400 => 840 euros (about 600$) : Vista pro, battery 8 cell (8 hours)

(you can see them in this website (neox.fr), just put 'x60s' in the quick search)

In a french forum, somebody told me that L2400 is the best choice because I want first of all silence and the best autonomy. For him, the L7400 becomes too hot.
Maybe the L7400 processor can't bear 8 hours with 8 cell battery, like the L2400 one ?
Maybe the L7400 is not as quiet as the L2400 ?

Four days ago, I've sold my R61 (T7100, Xp pro) because he had a bad autonomy (of course, it hasn't got a big battery!), he was too heavy and not silent (I put the first level of fan in TPfancontrol at 60° C and the t° reach this, only using office 2007).
I don't to buy a laptop which is not as silent as I want again.

Thanks a lot for your answers. I've found nothing in french forums.

L7400 => UK0M3FR
L2400 => UK16DFR

EOMtp · #2 Post by **EOMtp** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:31 am

An X60s with L2400 (1.6GHz) or L2500 (1.83GHz) will be totally silent, i.e., the fan will not be running, approximately 90% of the time.

An X61s with an L7400 will have the fan running 90% of the time ... even if one is doing nothing more than searching on Google!

There are utilities which can control the fan activity, but the default from the BIOS is as I described above, and the fan activity reflects the temperature differences between the CoreDuo and Core2Duo processors.

The X61s has the benefit of being able to accept the newer WLAN and WWAN cards. If that is not a consideration, and given the fan activity and battery life differences between the machines, I see no benefit whatsoever of choosing an X61s over an X60s.

I would gladly pay more for the total quiet of the X60s and the longer battery life of that machine, unless I absolutely needed one of the WLAN and/or WWAN cards which work only on the X61s.

Perfect007 · #3 Post by **Perfect007** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:18 am

Thanks a lot for this first answer

So, as a french forum, you give me this piece of advice : if you want silence and the more battery life you can have with a x60s, take a L2400 processor.

pibach · #4 Post by **pibach** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:56 am

hi Perfect, welcome over here.

These x-Series machines are all relatively silent, barely audible. If the L7400 is cheaper, this is the better buy as it consumes the same power on average but is slightly faster, and potentially can run 64 bit software.

Perfect007 · #5 Post by **Perfect007** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:09 am

hello pibach

Thanks again for this answer

rek · #6 Post by **rek** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:13 am

I can concur with EOMtp's post that the L2400 based X60s'es barely run the fan, if ever.

However, the 'low' fan speed of the X60 series is quieter than most hard disks, so most of the time you can't really tell the difference between no fan, or low fan.

Some of the newer a/b/g/n WLAN cards will work in the X60s (personal experience with the Atheros based one), however I believe you're out of luck with any of the new WWAN cards that were introduced with the X61.

I've never seen let alone heard a C2D based X60 series notebook, so can't comment on if they are any louder.

Only one caveat: if you like silence, don't use an Ultrabase with the system. At least in my experience, a docked system will run the fan very often (constantly cycling on and off), and it doesn't use the 'low' fan speed -- only the 'middle' speed which can get on your nerves if you like silence.

Perfect007 · #7 Post by **Perfect007** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:41 am

rek wrote: However, the 'low' fan speed of the X60 series is quieter than most hard disks, so most of the time you can't really tell the difference between no fan, or low fan.

When I've bought my R61 (15,4"), I've read a test on the laptop (r61). The tester said more or less the same thing : the first level of fan is quieter than the surrounding noise.
However, when I used the portable, I heard the fan (very silent environment)... and the HD was rather loud too :/

EOMtp · #8 Post by **EOMtp** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:39 pm

An X60s is not an R61 with the large and loud fan. Do not worry that the X60s will make noise -- it will be totally quiet. However, the main point of this post is not that; the main point is below:

I noticed that in your original post, the X60s=XP and X61s=Vista.

If that is the case, and if you do not intend to change/install your own operating system, then know the following: XP with 1MB is perfect, but for Vista you will need 2GB to do essentially the same work. Make sure that if you get the X61s with Vista, you also get 2GB on that machine.

Perfect007 · #9 Post by **Perfect007** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:45 pm

In fact it's the same laptop : x60s with two processors :
- L2400
- L7400 (Core2Duo as in the x61s)

EOMtp · #10 Post by **EOMtp** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:50 pm

Perfect007 wrote:In fact it's the same laptop : x60s with two processors :
- L2400
- L7400 (Core2Duo as in the x61s)

That is not possible, but even if the machine with the L7400 were named "X60s", the motherboard/processor/fan would be exactly the same as they would be on an X61s.

pibach · #11 Post by **pibach** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:04 pm

EOMtp, the x61s has Santa Rosa chipset, the x60s doesn't. But latter also has C2D option with L7400 which runs on different chipsets of course.

EOMtp · #12 Post by **EOMtp** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:37 pm

pibach wrote:...[X60s] also has C2D option with L7400 which runs on different chipsets of course.

Thank you -- you are absolutely correct; my mistake. I was thinking of the L7500, not the L7400.

All my previous comments in this thread apply only to L7500 motherboards, which use the Santa Rosa chipset, i.e., they are X61s motherboards.

To Perfect007: I do not know if an X60s motherboard with an L7400 runs the fan differently than the same motherboard with an L2400/L2500.

iamdmc · #13 Post by **iamdmc** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:12 pm

The X61s is far more powerful than the X60s

The X60s has slightly better battery life than the X61s (but I do get up to 9 hours on my 8-cell battery on minimum settings)

I prefer the X61s. The fact that it is cheaper makes it a great deal - I would go for it.

EOMtp · #14 Post by **EOMtp** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:38 pm

Perfect007 wrote:In fact it's the same laptop : x60s with two processors :
- L2400
- L7400 (Core2Duo as in the x61s)

An X60s with L7400 C2D processor sounds perfect ... if the BIOS constraints on newer WLAN/WWAN cards and lack of 64-bit functionality are not concerns.

Perfect007 · #15 Post by **Perfect007** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:39 am

iamdmc wrote: I prefer the X61s. The fact that it is cheaper makes it a great deal - I would go for it.

Yes, a x61s costs twice a x60s

Perfect007 · #16 Post by **Perfect007** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:59 am

EOMtp wrote: To Perfect007: I do not know if an X60s motherboard with an L7400 runs the fan differently than the same motherboard with an L2400/L2500.

In fact, It may be difficult to know this, without having the two laptops in front of us, to compare them

gerdh · #17 Post by **gerdh** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:32 am

From my experience, I run a X60 with a L7500 processor and the fan runs often and loud compared to the X60s with L2400 - I own both machines.

while the X60s fan runs barely and with a barely notable noise, the X60 always runs at about 3k rpm and develops a howling tone which is quite annoying. The right palmrest gets quite warm as the WLAN card 3954 firm intel produces heat. The fan assy was replaced by service to no improvement. I deal with the issue now by using tpfancontrol utility, however, the fan tone does not disappear or lower to the silent operation of the X60 fan.

Gerd

Perfect007 · #18 Post by **Perfect007** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:38 am

Ok, thanks.

I think I'm going to buy the x60s with an L2400 processor, just to be sure

jketzetera · #19 Post by **jketzetera** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:14 am

EOMtp wrote: An X61s with an L7400 will have the fan running 90% of the time ... even if one is doing nothing more than searching on Google!

There are utilities which can control the fan activity, but the default from the BIOS is as I described above, and the fan activity reflects the temperature differences between the CoreDuo and Core2Duo processors.

.

Are you sure that the difference in fan activity is due to the temperature difference? I believe that the difference in TDP between the two CPU:s is only 2 watts. It would seem odd that a 2 watt difference would result in such a big temperature difference.

Is it not more likely that Lenovo changed the Bios trip values for when the fan is active? If that is the case then an X61s with Thinkpad fan control software should be about as silent as an X60s running on Bios fan control.

EOMtp · #20 Post by **EOMtp** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:47 am

jketzetera wrote:Are you sure that the difference in fan activity is due to the temperature difference? ... an X61s with Thinkpad fan control software should be about as silent as an X60s running on Bios fan control.

As silent, but hotter! -- to quote Hamlet, "ay, there’s the rub!". You are quite correct that 2W power consumption differential cannot account for a temperature differential which forces the X61s fan to run as often as it does. And yet, if one uses fan controlling software to throttle down the X61s fan activity to the same low level as the fan activity on an X60s, then the CPU temperature on the X61s rises abruptly and predictably even under minimal CPU load.

I do not know how many different temperature sensors/zones on the motherboard the BIOS fan algorithms consult. What is not open to question is that the overall temperature profile of the X61s with C2D processor and Santa Rosa chipset is hotter in one or more zones than an X60s with similar configuration. As you correctly point out, it is not just the processor; the new support circuitry contributes its own incrementally higher temperature burden.

In summary, it does not appear that simply X61s BIOS thresholds have been relaxed so that the fan can run more often on an X61s than on a X60s. It appears that the fan on the X61s runs more often because it needs to do so in order to keep temperatures on the processor and elsewhere on the motherboard from rising to undesirable levels.

jketzetera · #21 Post by **jketzetera** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:22 am

EOMtp wrote:As silent, but hotter! -- to quote Hamlet, "ay, there’s the rub!". You are quite correct that 2W power consumption differential cannot account for a temperature differential which forces the X61s fan to run as often as it does. And yet, if one uses fan controlling software to throttle down the X61s fan activity to the same low level as the fan activity on an X60s, then the CPU temperature on the X61s rises abruptly and predictably even under minimal CPU load.

Do you own an X60s (please state CPU)? If so, what CPU-temps does your machine reach under different scenarios?

EOMtp · #22 Post by **EOMtp** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:51 pm

jketzetera wrote:Do you own an X60s (please state CPU)? If so, what CPU-temps does your machine reach under different scenarios?

Several X60s machines, all with 1.83GHz processors, 2GB, 7200RPM drives, all with WLAN (IBM), some with WWAN (Verizon). Same with X61s machines.

The CPU temperatures, under light CPU loads, hover in the low 40s (43-45) Celsius with the fan off. The CPU temperatures on the X61s machines rise to 50 degrees Celsius and higher, under identical relatively low CPU loads, if the fans are forced to stay off.

I have not run the tests at the "high end" -- i.e., to determine if the X60s and and X61s CPU temperatures differ under maximal CPU loads with full-speed fan operation -- because of lack of interest on my part, as that mode does not represent my use of these machines.

jketzetera · #23 Post by **jketzetera** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:10 pm

I get about the same temps with my x61s. Under low - medium loads (Outlook 2007, 10 IE sessions, Azureus, Word, Excel) the temperature is approx 50 - 55 degrees Celsius. Under medium to high loads my fan always kicks in (despite me using Thinkpad Fan Control). CPU is always set to dynamic switching.

All in all, I like my x61s very much (I recently bought it). However, I would probably trade the 64bit capability of the Core 2 Duo for a completely silent machine.

iamdmc · #24 Post by **iamdmc** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:04 pm

If you're running minimal settings, you can have a completely silent X61s. Mine goes deathly silent (except for the hard drive spinning)

pibach · #25 Post by **pibach** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:49 pm

My x61t is silent under Vista and dead silent under Xubuntu. Actually C2D/Santa Rosa consumes a bit less power on average that Core Duo although TDP is slightly higher. The C2D configuration is the better choice. If this one is louder than the normal x60s then it must be something else, probably no WLAN power savings activated, whatever.

jketzetera · #26 Post by **jketzetera** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:16 pm

EOMtp wrote:
jketzetera wrote:Are you sure that the difference in fan activity is due to the temperature difference? ... an X61s with Thinkpad fan control software should be about as silent as an X60s running on Bios fan control.
As silent, but hotter! -- to quote Hamlet, "ay, there’s the rub!". You are quite correct that 2W power consumption differential cannot account for a temperature differential which forces the X61s fan to run as often as it does.

It would seem that the it is the Santa Rosa chipset that is the culprit for the higher temps and shorter battery life of the X61s vs X60s. The following is stated in regards to the chipsets:

“The reason is as simple as that 945GM Napa chipset has half power consumption (7W TDP) than 965GM Santa Rosa (14W TDP),” HKEPC says.

http://laptoping.com/intel-core-2-solo- ... 0-523.html

pibach · #27 Post by **pibach** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 7:42 pm

TDP gives the maximum power consumption. In average Santa Rosa and C2D consumes less. So it must be some software issue. I am pretty sure about that.

gerdh · #28 Post by **gerdh** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:50 am

My 2 cents from experience with about 5 X60 and X61 machines I have in operation:

IF on battery:
- the X60 L7x -processor machines get hotter; subsequently the fan runs (much) more often
- the L2x machines stay much cooler, the fan runs rarely,

IF connected to an X6 ultrabase, machines with both type of processor run their fan more or less continuously,

IF powered by the AC connector, the fans run more often, but this depends on the system load.

From a performance point of view, the combination of fast HDD (7200 rpm) and more memory (4 GB) are more important compared to choosing an L7x over an L2x processor. Both processors should have both memory slots occupied.

It is important to note that Lenovo in fact has a wide variance in the noise dissipation of fans even on the X61s machines with L2x processors (!). I have machines with fans barely audible and others with noise of a certain pitch created by the fan, once it is running - very annoying. The variance in what is shipped and - if returned for service - is declared as "within specs and normal" is surprising and disappointing at the same time. Does Lenovo have standards of quality similar to the former IBM? To me, this is an indicator that Lenovo undercuts the standards IBM was known for.

So, everyone looking for a silent machine, certainly shoot for an L2x processor, use fast HDDs and 4 GB of memory, however, be prepared to return the machine in case the fan noise is annoying within the first 30 days, if possible.

pibach · #29 Post by **pibach** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:04 am

gerdh wrote: So, everyone looking for a silent machine, certainly shoot for an L2x processor..

gerdh, if your measurements indicate that, I would assume some other cause as power consumptions of C2D Sata Rosa x61s under light load is lower than x60s. This is partly because of FSB clock adjustment on 800 Mhz P-state (FSB clocks down to 400 Mhz). Also C2D has better power saving support than normal core duo CPU. However difference is small, ~0,2 Watt (own measurements). Using Xubuntu fan never runs on my x61t on office tasks.

jketzetera · #30 Post by **jketzetera** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:34 am

pibach wrote:TDP gives the maximum power consumption. In average Santa Rosa and C2D consumes less. So it must be some software issue. I am pretty sure about that.

It would seem that Lenovo does not agree. Taken from

http://www.lenovoblogs.com/insidethebox/?p=80

"We’ve seen the total amount of heat generated by Santa Rosa vs. a Napa system increase by over 20%."

On the same page they mention that the new Santa Rosa T61 and R61 are their coolest and more silent running systems thanks to chassis redesigns and higher quality fans.

x60s => L7400 vs L2400 : silence and autonomy

x60s => L7400 vs L2400 : silence and autonomy

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