Thinkpads Forum

I'm not a hardware guy. I work in software industry and I used nothing but ThinkPads from the early 1990ties. I think they are great business machines and I'm impressed with the new features that Lenovo is slowly trickling down to us about the new models. From what I can gather on the web, new X will have WXGA+, LED back-light display, wide screen, built in camera, long battery life, 1Gb LAN, optional SSD Ultra-ATA, 802.11n(MIMO)+HSDPA (3.5G WWAN), metal hinges etc. This is all awesome stuff. However, I'm tempted just to buy soon-to-be-released Apple sub notebook instead of the new soon-to-be-released ThinkPad X series. Apple is tempting simply because their laptops can run Linux, Windows and Macintosh OS X natively. this a though decision because I've been with ThinkPad's for so long. Did other software developers or network admins weight the pros and cons of switching?

James, I've struggled with the very same issue several times. Frankly, every time Apple announces a new model, I find myself thinking along the same lines as you -- should I buy one? So far, I've stayed the course with Thinkpads. Largely that's because they are business-like machines, seemingly well-built, and battery life is quite good (especially when running with two batteries).

My daughter runs a MacBook (and before that, an iBook), so I've had plenty of opportunity for and up close look at those. Apple's focus isn't quite the same as Lenovo's. Apple is about style and looking cool, and I often get a sense of form over function. My six-year-old Thinkpad X30, otoh, has a look-and-feel that seems timeless.

Here are some specific things that put me off when I look at my daughter's Macbook: not as solid feeling as my Thinkpad, chiclet keyboard, no two-button mouse (a big deal for me), no trackpoint, no Thinklight, no PC-card slot, unbusiness-like white color, black priced out of my willingness to pay, slippery surface, no choice of battery sizes, no ability to swap out CD drive for a second battery.

Apple does however, have a compelling platform. OS X is essentially Unix + a great-looking GUI. And, as you point out, one can run all three desktop operating systems that matter (OS X, Windows, Linux) on one box. I wouldn't blame anyone one little bit for choosing a Mac. Perhaps someday I will choose a MacBook, but so far Apple hasn't managed to produce quite the right product to entice me to buy into their world again. (Many years ago I was a heavy Mac user).

p.s. One often sees discussion of "consumer" versus "business" notebooks. If anyone has the "consumer" angle nailed, it's Apple.

Modern ThinkPads can also run Windows, Linux and OS X natively. There's lots of help on this forum and at thinkwiki.org. Not to mention OS/2, DOS, *BSD and on and on.

I know a lot of programmers who use Apple machines, but they never keep them near as long as the ThinkPad owners. They just don't hold up as well.

ThinkPads should be compared with the MacBook Pro, not the MacBook, as they're more in line with each other.

The MacBook Pro is slightly cheaper than a comparably spec'd ThinkPad, although when you throw in the cost of having to buy Windows separately it ends up being pricier. Personally I'd rather have a dedicated Windows laptop, in part because of the keyboard issue (Mac keyboards are different and while the two-button mouse issue is a very simple workaround--just hit the CTRL key while clicking the trackpad button--it seems to be a deal-killer for many Windows users), but if you need to use more than one OS it might make sense to get a Mac.

The MacBook Pro has a better alternative to the TrackLight: the entire keyboard lights up from underneath, automatically, based on ambient lighting. In practice this works better for me than the TrackLight. The MacBook Pro has PC-card slot and an excellent keyboard. Recent models have been rated as the fastest Windows laptops available on the market today.

I agree that the build quality and QA are not up to the ThinkPad standard, but the MacBook Pro is a well-built machine and can stand up to abuse. I've had my current one (actually the previous model, a PowerBook G4 aluminum model) for four or five years now and it has held up very well despite arriving with a few ridiculous problems (the screen latch wouldn't stay closed, you'd think they would have tested that before shipping).

Anyway, I've gone back and forth on this same question a lot over the past year and ultimately decided to keep Windows on my ThinkPad and OSX on my Mac, and keep two computers rather than just having one.

Given the build quality horror stories I've been hearing about recent Mac laptops (crooked screens, dead pixels, bulging batteries, discoloring palm rests, improperly applied thermal paste, blocked vents, etc), I'd go with the Thinkpad. I know people have complained about Thinkpad quality since the Lenovo transition, but I haven't heard of nearly as many problems as with the Apples.

beside built quality where I would rank both to be well above competitors the MacBook Pro is the only Laptop that provides 15,4" screen at 14" portability, decent battery life, strong graphics, LED, bright screen, outdoor visibility, and Dual DVI. Some other minor advantages are faster FireWire (e.g. to connect to external HDD) and Webcam. Also the Touchpad is by far the best available on the market and single button is in fact an advantage as you can press left click with the thumb and do right click or scrolling by a second finger. MacBook Pro has best in its class power management. Actually it is the only Laptop on the market with decent graphics performance and good mobility.
For me the main downside is that some of these pros are not achieved under Windows (such as its superb battery life). And that the display is only WXGA+ (would prefer WSXGA+). Also I would like its footprint to be even smaller (would be nice to have a WXGA+, 14" MacBook Pro at under 2kg). And last minor issue: you cannot fully open up the display.

The only Thinkpad I would say that is comparatively as well designed is the 14" T61 SXGA+ with integrated graphics (x3100) and 6 cell battery that fits flush. This one has heads up regarding mobility with a bit smaller form factor, high resolution screen and outstanding battery life (NVIDEA models suck too much).
And 4:3 screen is another big advantage imho. Main downer is the dim screen that is pretty much useless outdoors.

All the other Thinkpads have major design flaws: unused chassis space in the 15" & 15,4", too much power consumption with the Flexview screens, too small battery in the 14,1" Widescreen Models. And all those NVIDEA models just eat too much power.
Sticking out extended batteries are another design sin which could never happen with an Apple.

@whizkid
Natively means by original condition; or originally.

I took "natively" to mean it runs without an emulator, which is the only way I had seen the term used, but c'est la vie.

jamesdin wrote:new X will have WXGA+

Where did you see that? Currently, there aren't any WXGA+ (1440x900) 12.1" or 13.3" screens.

pibach wrote:beside built quality where I would rank both to be well above competitors the MacBook Pro is the only Laptop that provides 15,4" screen at 14" portability, decent battery life, strong graphics, LED, bright screen, outdoor visibility, and Dual DVI. Some other minor advantages are faster FireWire (e.g. to connect to external HDD) and Webcam. Also the Touchpad is by far the best available on the market and single button is in fact an advantage as you can press left click with the thumb and do right click or scrolling by a second finger. MacBook Pro has best in its class power management. Actually it is the only Laptop on the market with decent graphics performance and good mobility.
For me the main downside is that some of these pros are not achieved under Windows (such as its superb battery life). And that the display is only WXGA+ (would prefer WSXGA+). Also I would like its footprint to be even smaller (would be nice to have a WXGA+, 14" MacBook Pro at under 2kg). And last minor issue: you cannot fully open up the display.

The only Thinkpad I would say that is comparatively as well designed is the 14" T61 SXGA+ with integrated graphics (x3100) and 6 cell battery that fits flush. This one has heads up regarding mobility with a bit smaller form factor, high resolution screen and outstanding battery life (NVIDEA models suck too much).
And 4:3 screen is another big advantage imho. Main downer is the dim screen that is pretty much useless outdoors.

All the other Thinkpads have major design flaws: unused chassis space in the 15" & 15,4", too much power consumption with the Flexview screens, too small battery in the 14,1" Widescreen Models. And all those NVIDEA models just eat too much power.
Sticking out extended batteries are another design sin which could never happen with an Apple.

Round the corner of my current office is an Apple store where I played with some of their products. I explored a MacBook Pro with WUXGA (1920xsomething) and 4 GB Ram with a 2.6Ghz Dual Core. It was my dream machine, until I tried to use the touchpad without the second right-click button. It drove me crazy! The staff at the store said, that privately they use a 5 button Logitech mouse instead of Apple's.

Concerning the dim screen on Thinkpads. It all depends on how much battery you want to give up. Ultrabright, VibrantView etc have 2 CCFL lamps which give you around 300nits. However they love the battery like Graf Dracula the virgin's neck.

I replaced my old dim CCFL in the T42 with a new generation longlife lamp. These new CCFLs are much better than 3 years ago! Then: 7800K (bluish color) and 30000 cd/m2 and now 7400K (neutral white) and 45000 cd/m2. All with the same current of 5mA but much more responsive phosphorous layers.
My old dim 125nits SXGA screen runs now something at maybe 180nits! Very similar to VibrantView.
Costs: 20$ and 20 minutes work.
Highly recommended!!

I can not comment on the future ultra portables from Apple or Lenova because I have not used or even seem them. But I can speak to the overall build quality of Thinkpads and Macbook(Pro) as I have used both over the past two years. I currently use macbook pro 15", X60s and a very portable Panasonic R6A.

I can tell you Macbook has the worst build quality. The case is very easy to scratch and dent. The keyboard is not responsive and the battery option is very limited. If you intend to travel with your laptop, the traveling weight on the Macbook is very heavy because besides the laptop is slightly heavier than comparable Thinkpads, the AC charger is brick.

The nicest thing about the macbook is the MacOS. If you don't intend to spend most of your time working in MacOS, and use Window/Linux instead, I highly suggest you purchase Thinkpad.

Besides the OS, the fact the macbook does not have WWAN or a PC card slot is a real problem for me as I spend a lot of time on the road and it is just easier to use WWAN than looking for a Wifi hotspot.

beeblebrox wrote: ...It was my dream machine, until I tried to use the touchpad without the second right-click button. It drove me crazy! The staff at the store said, that privately they use a 5 button Logitech mouse instead of Apple's.

Of course you need some practice. But have you seen a Mac enthusiast using this touchpad? This thing can fly. It might actually be the fastest input device available today, better than a mouse, regardless of how many buttons.

In regards to running Linux natively you can, or will soon be able to, get a Thinkpad T-series with Suse Linux Enterprise (SLED) installed from factory. So, if you are looking for a linux compatible laptops, Thinkpads are it. Go to lenovo.com and put linux in the search field. Lenovo has all sorts of pages dedicated to linux on tihnkpads. Also, check the aforementioned thinkwiki.org.

maybe should be a separate thread, but check this out:

http://www.gottabemobile.com/CES2008The ... dU110.aspx

pibach wrote:The only Thinkpad I would say that is comparatively as well designed is the 14" T61 SXGA+ with integrated graphics (x3100) and 6 cell battery that fits flush. This one has heads up regarding mobility with a bit smaller form factor, high resolution screen and outstanding battery life (NVIDEA models suck too much).
And 4:3 screen is another big advantage imho. Main downer is the dim screen that is pretty much useless outdoors.

All the other Thinkpads have major design flaws: unused chassis space in the 15" & 15,4", too much power consumption with the Flexview screens, too small battery in the 14,1" Widescreen Models. And all those NVIDEA models just eat too much power.
Sticking out extended batteries are another design sin which could never happen with an Apple.

You've forgotten about the X61(s). I have an X61s Ultrabright with seven hour battery life on the 8-cell which sticks out an inch in the back but covers the entire back so appears flush. It also serves as a great handle. Light weight, and smaller than any of the newer Mac laptops. People see me with it and all the time ask about it. I don't understand why most people don't start using the 'X' series Thinkpads. They don't come with a built-in optical drive, but it is easy to use an external USB 2.0 optical drive when neccessary.

dfumento wrote:I don't understand why most people don't start using the 'X' series Thinkpads.

For the same reason that some people like peanut butter in their chocolate. People have different tastes and needs.

nonny wrote:

dfumento wrote:I don't understand why most people don't start using the 'X' series Thinkpads.

For the same reason that some people like peanut butter in their chocolate. People have different tastes and needs.

Could you be more specific?
For most people that do web surfing and Word and perhaps Excel, and watch movies, etc. the 'X' series works very well. Even using photoshop, etc. it works well.
If one is laptop for CAD, or programming they might need a larger screen.
As for me, I use my 'X' for programming as well and it works very well.
So, why would most people be choosing 'T' when 'X' would work just as well and be much smaller and more convenient? I think it is only because they are used to 'T' sized laptops with bulit-in optical drives.

dfumento wrote:So, why would most people be choosing 'T' when 'X' would work just as well

For me, the X series definitely doesn't "work just as well" because the screen resolution is way too low. WXGA is my minimum requirement and I'm glad to see that the U110 IdeaPad will have such a resolution.

pianowizard wrote:

dfumento wrote:So, why would most people be choosing 'T' when 'X' would work just as well

For me, the X series definitely doesn't "work just as well" because the screen resolution is way too low. WXGA is my minimum requirement and I'm glad to see that the U110 IdeaPad will have such a resolution.

Just curious, for which application is the screen resolution too low? TIA

dfumento wrote:For most people that do web surfing and Word and perhaps Excel, and watch movies, etc. the 'X' series works very well.

You should see the spreadsheets my boss gives me. 3000 pixels wide wouldn't even be enough. I love the X series, but wide spreadsheets aren't so fun on an XGA display. OTOH, I love the smallness of my X30 when I travel.

JonathanGennick wrote:

dfumento wrote:For most people that do web surfing and Word and perhaps Excel, and watch movies, etc. the 'X' series works very well.

You should see the spreadsheets my boss gives me. 3000 pixels wide wouldn't even be enough. I love the X series, but wide spreadsheets aren't so fun on an XGA display. OTOH, I love the smallness of my X30 when I travel.

At the office and at home I use Dell 24" 1920x1200 monitors. If you have wide spreadsheets, that's the setup to use. . If one uses these Dell monitors, then one could probably use the 'X' series laptops in most cases unless doing specialized CAD, programming, etc.

dfumento wrote:Just curious, for which application is the screen resolution too low? TIA

All applications, because I like to view multiple windows simultaneously.

dfumento wrote: You've forgotten about the X61(s).

Yes, the x61s is also a well designed machine, but this is a different league. And XGA is a downer. That's why I personally chose the x61t with SXGA+. But it comes with other compromises. A x61s with SXGA+ would be ideal.

It is usually a good idea to wait for the second revision of a new Apple form-factor, before sinking your cash into one. There is a consistent track record with Apple products, where the "Revision A" of a new design has various issues, most of which are usually fixed up in the "Revision B" update that follows a few months later.

The current Macbook is not all that bad, actually; though in terms of size and weight it's not quite a subnotebook. The build quality isn't quite up to T/X standards, it's by no means horrible like a consumer grade Dell or Compaq.

The trackpad is the best of the kind I've ever used, and the two finger scrolling is very convenient (almost as natural as the Trackpoint middle-button scroll). The main issue with it is a lack of a physical right mouse button -- if you're going to be using multiple OSes, the workarounds will get old very soon.

The chiclet keyboard looks nasty, but it's not really all that bad to use (but not anything to write home about).

pianowizard wrote:

dfumento wrote:So, why would most people be choosing 'T' when 'X' would work just as well

For me, the X series definitely doesn't "work just as well" because the screen resolution is way too low. WXGA is my minimum requirement and I'm glad to see that the U110 IdeaPad will have such a resolution.

Maybe you should get the 12" SXGA screen, that is used in the X61 Tablet?
Check IDTech's display web site, I think they have 12" SXGA without the touch screen as well.

rek wrote:It is usually a good idea to wait for the second revision of a new Apple form-factor, before sinking your cash into one. There is a consistent track record with Apple products, where the "Revision A" of a new design has various issues, most of which are usually fixed up in the "Revision B" update that follows a few months later.

The current Macbook is not all that bad, actually; though in terms of size and weight it's not quite a subnotebook. The build quality isn't quite up to T/X standards, it's by no means horrible like a consumer grade Dell or Compaq.

The trackpad is the best of the kind I've ever used, and the two finger scrolling is very convenient (almost as natural as the Trackpoint middle-button scroll). The main issue with it is a lack of a physical right mouse button -- if you're going to be using multiple OSes, the workarounds will get old very soon.

The chiclet keyboard looks nasty, but it's not really all that bad to use (but not anything to write home about).

I wonder whether high end notebooks will soon have a small multitouch screen similar to the iphone instead of a measly touch pad.
It could give a lot of options for software programming, and would be lighter and cheaper than a tablet touch screen

rek wrote:The chiclet keyboard looks nasty, but it's not really all that bad to use (but not anything to write home about).

My daughter seems happy enough with the chiclet keyboard. She actually was quite attracted to it at first. I should ask her again now that she's had a month or so of use on it.

That keyboard though, is a prime example of Apple's emphasis on style over functionality and practicality. I won't go so far as to say that emphasis is a bad thing. It's a branding choice. It's a branding choice that will resonate with some people and not with others. I'm sure Apple knows their target market well.

beeblebrox wrote:Maybe you should get the 12" SXGA screen, that is used in the X61 Tablet?

Look at my signature -- I already have this tablet, and am selling it. It's not light enough for me. After taking out the optical drive from my HP, its weight can be reduced to 2.81 lbs. I prefer that to the 3.84lb X61t even though the latter has 1400x1050 (the HP has 1280x800).

beeblebrox wrote:I wonder whether high end notebooks will soon have a small multitouch screen similar to the iphone

I had a 10.4" Fujitsu non-tablet laptop made in the late 1990s that had a touchscreen. So, the technology has been around for a long time, but somehow few manufacturers use it.

beeblebrox wrote:I wonder whether high end notebooks will soon have a small multitouch screen similar to the iphone instead of a measly touch pad.
It could give a lot of options for software programming, and would be lighter and cheaper than a tablet touch screen

Touchscreens are good on handheld devices that you actually hold in your hand. I am not sure what advantage over a touchpad they would offer in a standard clamshell laptop form factor.

Personally I find that while using a device with a half-decent hardware keyboard, it is much faster to navigate around using just the keyboard, without any use of pointing devices, provided the software supports the option well. One of the things I like in Vista is the start menu searcher: to launch an application I just press the Windows key (or Ctrl-Esc), type in the first few letters of the name, then press Enter, which is way faster than pointing everywhere, even with a good trackpoint. On the contrary, on handheld devices touchscreens seem natural (again, software has to support this with appropriately-sized controls), although a Pearl-style scrolling ball is nice too. Different input methods for different form factors.

Did other software developers or network admins weight the pros and cons of switching?

I went through something similar, and I am a systems engineer/administrator by trade. You may find this interesting:

Of our team of six, one uses an aluminum Powerbook daily, but is an old HP developer and constantly sticks Linux distributions on his desktop. He does most his development on our sandbox though (dual proc 1Us running CentOS) and whatever test machines he's keeping active that week.

Our best guy uses a MacBook Pro but talks about OpenBSD (NOT FreeBSD, NOT NetBSD -- he is fanatical about this) all day whenever he isn't dissing Linux.

Another guy has the old Titanium Powerbook but spends most his time sshing through a little Nokia tablet into whatever box he's working on. Otherwise he's playing on OSX on some dual-core Dell.

One of our other guys was granted a MacBook at his last job but nowadays doesn't care what he works and develops on.

All of them love my Thinkpad x61s. I picked it over a MacBook for the size, aspect ratio, and the trackpoint. (I LOVE ME SOME TRACKPOINT.)

We all spend most of our workday sshing into real boxes, though.

As you likely suspect, there really isn't an answer here, and I think it's all really about the user preference. I think OSX is a wonderful operating system. If forced to use it I would be extremely fast with it. However, my basic requirements for a desktop is I be able to right click on the desktop for a menu (a la Fluxbox or XFCE) and a fast terminal (like rxvt). That's it. I can get that for free and with standards, and easily contribute back.

In terms of development, either works. When it was my primary machine, I developed all my Perl on an X22's 700MHz P3M with 256MB of RAM before QAing on a real box. And I enjoyed every keystroke on a fantastic keyboard. I suspect my coworkers would say something similar about developing and shelling in an OSX enviornment.

For developing and engineering, I think the right choice is whichever laptop you're more likely to want to hug at the end of the day.