Thinkpads Forum

Hi,

I am eager to get an X61T. (as soon as the next 20% off coupon stacked with 25% savings hits.. I missed the March one..)

I know the argument: if you need one now, get it; if not, wait. I don't have to have one now, but I am going to be studying quite a bit soon and would prefer to have a tablet to record my notes electronically (as opposed to haphazardly in notebooks).


But anyways, do you recommend waiting for the X62T? I know that noone knows the specs, but what will be the speculated upgrade?

Penryn?

SXGA+ with Multitouch (this is the biggest thing; if it has this it is definitely better to wait).

What else could there be? Still the Centrino with 4965 Wireless and thus the Intel X3100 integrated graphics, right?


Thanks!

Simple Answer: No.
Reason: Lenovo's display quality is getting worse with time due to price pressure. If you wait long enough, I am sure you will get a powerful laptop but annoying to use due to the screen.

XIII wrote:Simple Answer: No.
Reason: Lenovo's display quality is getting worse with time due to price pressure. If you wait long enough, I am sure you will get a powerful laptop but annoying to use due to the screen.

Ahh I see. Thanks for that useful info. I have a T61 right now and initially I felt like the display was pretty good. But in reality, looking at it next to my Dell Ultrasharp, the display looks yellow-ish, pale-ish, and not very bright at all.

I have noticed that all thinkpads look like this.. even those from way back in the day (ie I used an X41 and its XGA screen was similarly sucky).

Definitely get the X61t with SXGA+ screen. It is one of the last Flexview screen available on Thinkpad line.

XIII wrote:Definitely get the X61t with SXGA+ screen. It is one of the last Flexview screen available on Thinkpad line.

I concur, I love the quality I obtain with the SXGA+ on my X61T

XIII wrote:Definitely get the X61t with SXGA+ screen. It is one of the last Flexview screen available on Thinkpad line.

Gotcha. What's going to replace this "Flexview" ? And Thinkpads are supposed to be the Mercedes of laptops; how are they going to maintain the Thinkpads' reputation if they put down LCD quality in the future?

snots wrote:And Thinkpads are supposed to be the Mercedes of laptops; how are they going to maintain the Thinkpads' reputation if they put down LCD quality in the future?

I would presume Lenovo is planning on introducing new features that will differentiate their products from the competition. They're probably not very interested in having the entire forum know about it or it may cease to be a differentiating factor.

Or they may just be dropping the ball. Who knows?

This topic has been raised many times. Bottom line is - the problem is less with Lenovo and more with the LCD manufacturers. IDTech is gone, LG apparently does not want to make IPS laptop screens anymore, and BOE-Hydis is bankrupt. Since the introduction of the T60, Lenovo has had constant supply problems with IPS screens. At this point they are limited to the Tablet only, a niche where it is more crucial to have wide viewing angles and apparently the only niche where BOE's post-bankruptcy limited manufacturing can still keep up. I find it very likely that with the next generation of tablets, even this will stop.

Ok, great. I will get the SXGA+ screen definitely.

Just one more thing: Vista or XP ? I heard Vista has better built-in inking ? Is that true?


Also: Should I wait 2-3 more days? Is it possible for a 20% coupon to come out? Would a 20% stack on top of CPP?

i've heard the same thing about vista, and overall im quite satisfied with vista except for the horrible boot times (about 3.5-4 mins which doesnt sound like THAT much, but when you're in a hurry it's pretty slow). and am considering downgrading to vista for this problem alone, the majority of the tablet functionality i use is in onenote for school and i never convert to text in onenote so i imagine this would be pretty much the same for xp tablet. but on the bright side, i think i bluescreen less often with vista than i ever did with xp.

on a side note, i didnt get the sxga+ screen because i wanted the touch screen, and i'm still not sure if it was the good decision or not. i like being able to touch the screen, but it's definitely not something i couldnt live without. it's most useful when you're working in groups and you can actually point and click on buttons instead of pointing to a button and telling someone else to click it.

ryan00davis wrote:it's most useful when you're working in groups and you can actually point and click on buttons instead of pointing to a button and telling someone else to click it.

as for me, i certainly would be using the tablet all for myself; so i wont be needing that functionality..


i see your point about boot-time. I have used vista before on my T61 and I agree the boot-time feels 2x (possibly 3x) as long as XP. Quite annoying.

However, there shouldn't be booting often since you can just come out of standby/hibernate often. Unless your standby process is unstable..

standby works fine, and i standby all the time. hibernate is annoying because the hard drive is slow and i have 4gb of ram (only 3 actually used by vista 32). and i do have the turbo memory thing by intel, im still not sure if it's actually helping at all, technically it should speed up my boot times.

ryan00davis wrote:standby works fine, and i standby all the time. hibernate is annoying because the hard drive is slow and i have 4gb of ram (only 3 actually used by vista 32). and i do have the turbo memory thing by intel, im still not sure if it's actually helping at all, technically it should speed up my boot times.

Ah, sorry to say, but I read a review (Anandtech? I forgot) that said the flash mem actually slows down (only by a few seconds) some operations (such as bootup). But one of the reasons mentioned was because the drivers for the Intel flash for Vista weren't mature yet -- the newest drivers might offer much better performance, but I haven't looked into it.

I don't plan on getting that option..

ryan00davis wrote:i've heard the same thing about vista, and overall im quite satisfied with vista except for the horrible boot times (about 3.5-4 mins which doesnt sound like THAT much, but when you're in a hurry it's pretty slow).

Vista doesn't have to boot that slowly. I've managed to get my X61T's boot time down much lower. I see my desktop within 50 seconds and can have Onenote up and running in under 1 minute. It's still a little slower than my X60s with XP, which sees the desktop in 40 seconds and has Onenote up in 50 seconds.

smvp6459 wrote:Vista doesn't have to boot that slowly. I've managed to get my X61T's boot time down much lower. I see my desktop within 50 seconds and can have Onenote up and running in under 1 minute. It's still a little slower than my X60s with XP, which sees the desktop in 40 seconds and has Onenote up in 50 seconds.

+1. Even with the ultrabase and a bunch of peripherals attached my X61T takes never takes more than 1 minute to load to desktop, and this includes fingerprint verification. I run 32-bit Vista without SP1, as well. Vista can be configured be much more responsive than it is out-of-the-box, and my visuals aren't severely affected.

yea, i've done a lot of cleanup recently, but i do have a lot of programs installed which doesnt help (even though almost none of them start at boot). i've turned off a lot of the services i dont need, but havent spent too much time on it, and i've actually turned off some hardware like the modem and fingerprint reader. im wishing i had done a reformat when i bought the thing, but didnt get around to it. im running the 1.8 ghz with 4gb of ram (in case anyone is curious). and my hard drive is usually quite full.

sorry to hijack the thread, but any chance you want to list any major things you've done to speed it up? did you format and get rid of all the lenovo software?

note: im quite knowledgeable with computers (although this is my first vista computer, so i dont have much to compare it to), so no need to dumb things down.

edit: i pulled out the stopwatch (aka phone) and timed things. it was 7 seconds to get through the bios, 1:40 to see the desktop, and about 2:40 to be usable (open firefox). the 3:30 i stated before might have been my reboot time. i've turned off some visual styles, but not all, i've been contemplating switching to 64bit to get my extra ram running (not that i ever run out of ram now) now that driver support is getting better

I haven't done a clean install of Vista, but I did just do a restore using factory recovery media a few weeks ago on the machine's current (new) HD. I don't think I've tinkered too much with it... let's see:

- Disabled / got rid of some programs like Norton, Access Connections, CSS, Message Center, etc.
- Turned off Vista indexing
- Turned off automatic system restore points
- Tinkered in the BIOS a little
- Currently the main programs that run on startup are Symantec Corporate AV client, Ad-Watch (from Ad-Aware registered version), Power Manager, Diskeeper, and WindowsBlinds

Biggest difference for me came with the 7K200 HD. Before I had the older generation 7K100 that came pre-installed, and even between the two drives of same RPM there was a huge difference in performance. What HD are you using?

ryan00davis wrote: sorry to hijack the thread, but any chance you want to list any major things you've done to speed it up? did you format and get rid of all the lenovo software?

This is a bit long, but here goes...

First of all, Some of my choices were related to hardware:
-Hitachi 7200K 200GB harddrive
-4GB of RAM
-4GB SD card (for readyboost)
-1GB Intel Turbo Memory (for readydrive)


I made sure caching was turned on for the harddrive. I updated all of my drivers. I installed SP1 (I think SP1 improves Vista's performance once booted, but I'm not convinced it speeds up boot time). I also updated Windows and my other software. I also turned off Aero, autoplay, sidebar, indexing, superfetch, restore points, shadow copy, and any other visual effects (except for font smoothing) -- basically, it looks like XP. Finally, I went through the task scheduler, device manager, and services, disabling everything I didn't think I needed (do these things at your own risk). Right now, I'm down to about 58 processes that are running (which isn't as lean as the 40-something I had in XP, but oh well).


Some of my changes were to software. I only kept the following Thinkpad/Lenovo programs because I don't use the others:
-Lenovo System Interface Driver
-On Screen Display
-PC-Doctor 5
-Presentation Director
-Thinkpad Bluetooth
-Thinkpad EasyEject Utility
-Thinkpad Keyboard Customizer Utility
-Thinkpad Mobility Center Customization
-Thinkpad Modem
-Thinkpad Power Management Driver
-Thinkpad Power Manager
-Thinkpad Tablet Button Driver
-Thinkpad Tablet Shortcut Menu
-Thinkpad TrackPoint Driver
-ThinkVantage Active Protection System
-ThinkVantage Fingerprint Software
-System Update


The other changes related to Windows Operation...

I disabled hardware I don't use regularly (in the BIOS or in Device Manager)
-Bluetooth
-Ethernet
-Firewire
-Parallel Port
-PCMCIA Adapter
-Microsoft iSCSI
-Serial Port

I disabled all of the startup items that I didn't think were essential. Here's a list of what starts when I boot up:
-HK_LM:Run, Acrobat Assistant 8.0
-HK_LM:Run, COMODO Firewall Pro
-HK_LM:Run, googletalk
-HK_LM:Run, HotKeysCmds
-HK_LM:Run, IaNvSrv
-HK_LM:Run, IBMTBCTL
-HK_LM:Run, PWMTRV
-HK_LM:Run, TPFNF7
-HK_LM:Run, TPHOTKEY
-HK_LM:Run, TpShocks
-HK_LM:Run, TSMResident
-WinLogon, igfxcui
-WinLogon, psfus

I also changed the services that run on startup:
**Automatic**
-Application Experience
-Application Information
-ASR Service
-Base Filtering Engine
-COM+ Event System
-COMODO Firewall Pro Helper Service
-DCOM Server Process Launcher
-DHCP Client
-DNS Client
-Group Policy Client
-Human Interface Device Access
-Intel(R) PROSet/Wireless Event Log
-Intel(R) PROSet/Wireless Registry Service
-McAfee Framework Service
-McAfee McShield
-McAfee Task Manager
-Plug and Play
-Print Spooler
-Program Compatibility Assistant Service
-ReadyBoost
-Remote Procedure Call (RPC)
-Secondary Logon
-Security Accounts Manager
-Shell Hardware Detection
-Software Licensing
-System Event Notification Service
-Tablet PC Input Service
-TABLET Service
-Task Scheduler
-TCP/IP NetBIOS Helper
-ThinkPad PM Service
-tp4serv
-User Profile Service
-Windows Audio
-Windows Audio Endpoint Builder
-Windows Event Log
-Windows Management Instrumentation
-WLAN AutoConfig
-Workstation

**Automatic Delayed**
-CNG Key Isolation
-Cryptographic Services
-Extensible Authentication Protocol
-FLEXnet Licensing Service
-Multimedia Class Scheduler
-Net Driver HPZ12
-Network Connections
-Network List Service
-Network Location Awareness
-Network Store Interface Service
-On Screen Display
-TPM Base Services
-Windows Time

**Manual**
-COM+ System Application
-InstallDriver Table Manager
-Interactive Services Detection
-Microsoft Office Diagnostics Service
-Netlogon
-Office Source Engine
-Pml Driver HPZ12
-Remote Procedure Call (RPC) Locator
-Secure Socket Tunneling Protocol Service
-SL UI Notification Service
-Thread Ordering Server
-Virtual Disk
-Windows Backup
-Windows Installer
-Windows Modules Installer
-Wired AutoConfig
-WMI Performance Adapter

**Disabled**
-Andrea ADI Filters Service
-Apple Mobile Device
-Application Layer Gateway Service
-Application Management
-Background Intelligent Transfer Service
-Block Level Backup Engine Service
-Bluetooth Service
-Bluetooth Support Service
-Bonjour Service
-Certificate Propagation
-Computer Browser
-Desktop Window Manager Session Manager
-DFS Replication
-Diagnostic Policy Service
-Diagnostic Service Host
-Diagnostic System Host
-Distributed Link Tracking Client
-Distributed Transaction Coordinator
-Fax
-Function Discovery Provider Host
-Function Discovery Resource Publication
-Health Key and Certificate Management
-HP CUE DeviceDiscovery Service
-HP Network Devices Support
-hpqcxs08
-IKE and AuthIP IPsec Keying Modules
-Internet Connection Sharing (ICS)
-IP Helper
-iPod Service
-IPsec Policy Agent
-KtmRm for Distributed Transaction Coordinator
-Link-Layer Topology Discovery Mapper
-MacFormatService
-Machine Debug Manager
-Microsoft .NET Framework NGEN v2.0.50727_X86
-Microsoft iSCSI Initiator Service
-Microsoft Software Shadow Copy Provider
-Net.Tcp Port Sharing Service
-Network Access Protection Agent
-Offline Files
-Peer Name Resolution Protocol
-Peer Networking Grouping
-Peer Networking Identity Manager
-Performance Logs & Alerts
-PnP-X IP Bus Enumerator
-PNRP Machine Name Publication Service
-Portable Device Enumerator Service
-Problem Reports and Solutions Control Panel Support
-Protected Storage
-Quality Windows Audio Video Experience
-Remote Access Auto Connection Manager
-Remote Access Connection Manager
-Remote Registry
-Routing and Remote Access
-SBSD Security Center Service
-Security Center
-Server
-Smart Card
-Smart Card Removal Policy
-SNMP Trap
-SSDP Discovery
-Superfetch
-Telephony
-Terminal Services
-Terminal Services Configuration
-Terminal Services UserMode Port Redirector
-Themes
-ThinkPad HDD APS Logging Service
-UPnP Device Host
-Volume Shadow Copy
-WebClient
-Windows CardSpace
-Windows Color System
-Windows Connect Now - Config Registrar
-Windows Defender
-Windows Driver Foundation - User-mode Driver Framework
-Windows Error Reporting Service
-Windows Event Collector
-Windows Firewall
-Windows Image Acquisition (WIA)
-Windows Media Player Network Sharing Service
-Windows Presentation Foundation Font Cache 3.0.0.0
-Windows Remote Management (WS-Management)
-Windows Search
-Windows Update
-WinHTTP Web Proxy Auto-Discovery Service
-XAudioService

wow, thanks for that, our list of services isnt extremely different, but when i have some more time im coming back to this list to do some cleanup. seems like the biggest differences are the hard drive speed (im at 5400) and i dont have the extra readyboost, but i've never seen myself run out of memory, so i dont really see this as being an issue. but in my looking, my turbo memory seems to be not working properly for readydrive. but if i cant get that working on my own, that's a topic for a different thread.

but back to the original question.... that's another thing you dont get in XP, readydrive and readyboost (someone correct me if there is now a way to get these working in XP).

thanks again,
Ryan

If you have sufficient ram (2gb+) readydrive/readyboost and turbo memory will give little to no benefit IMO.

Another tip for speeding up boot times is to defragment your disk regularly.

Also I have found Thinkvantage Rescue and Recovery to be a major resource drain, espeically on bootup - consider uninstalling it (unless you consider its backup & recovery features indispensable). I use Vista's Complete PC Backup instead, along with Areca (free GPL backup software) for my important documents.

Also, I would think twice before disabling any services. Often you will be compromising Vista's features and creating more headaches. I have not seen evidence showing significant speedup from disabling services. Most bootup delays come from 3rd party software.

Xtal wrote:Also, I would think twice before disabling any services. Often you will be compromising Vista's features and creating more headaches. I have not seen evidence showing significant speedup from disabling services. Most bootup delays come from 3rd party software.

Services absolutely affect boot time, services are most of what is being started when you boot up your computer. There are 3rd party services as well as Window's own services. They have limited effect on computer performance once they're all loaded (assuming you have adequate memory to run them all), but they definitely impact start time.

I've been disabling services since Win2K and it improves my boot times. In fact, Vista is even more friendly to the practice since it prevents the disabling of more essential services than ever before.

I wouldn't recommend my grandfather shut off services, but if you're something of a power-user (like you are comfortable with the management console and understand privileges), I don't think it is that big a deal. If you're not sure what a service does, check it out before shutting it off. If something that normally runs fails, selectively turn services back on to figure out which service was needed. You might have some problems initially, but once you figure out an operating system's inessential services (for your needs), you know it for the life of the OS.

ryan00davis wrote: i dont have the extra readyboost, but i've never seen myself run out of memory, so i dont really see this as being an issue.

I think Readyboost is partially about substituting for memory. It is also better at random read-writes of small files than a physical harddrive and can act as a cache to prevent the HD from needing to spin up.

How about the capacitive touchscreen panel? If it has a non-pressure sensing touchscreen panel, inking performance on the subsequent thinkpad tablet model is going to improve a lot
So, Flexview or better inking?

milstein wrote:How about the capacitive touchscreen panel? If it has a non-pressure sensing touchscreen panel, inking performance on the subsequent thinkpad tablet model is going to improve a lot
So, Flexview or better inking?

Can you give a little more background with the info you just mentioned?

...The Latitude XT is the first sub-four pound convertible with both pen and "capacitive" touch technology. Capacitive technology senses the touch of a finger with no pressure leading to better accuracy, response times, screen durability, and ultimately, a better user experience. As an example, as far as accuracy and speed, our third-party tests confirmed this against the Lenovo X61T. Also, the digitizer is rated up to 10 times more durable than competitors resistive touch digitizer technology...

Source from Dell:
http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/ ... 37914.aspx

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ca ... tive+touch

It's just my speculation that Lenovo and other tablet manufacturers will catch up with Dell in their next generation tablet pc

milstein wrote:

...The Latitude XT is the first sub-four pound convertible with both pen and "capacitive" touch technology. Capacitive technology senses the touch of a finger with no pressure leading to better accuracy, response times, screen durability, and ultimately, a better user experience. As an example, as far as accuracy and speed, our third-party tests confirmed this against the Lenovo X61T. Also, the digitizer is rated up to 10 times more durable than competitors resistive touch digitizer technology...

Source from Dell:
http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/ ... 37914.aspx

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ca ... tive+touch

It's just my speculation that Lenovo and other tablet manufacturers will catch up with Dell in their next generation tablet pc

Ahh I see. However, one commenter on the dell blog said:

"David B said:

The capacitive touch they implemented is bad and sensitive to electrical noises.... try to plug the AC adaptor to electricity without grounding and you will see that the "touch" will stop function. The resistive is much reliable than this specific capacitive. Toshiba and Lenovo offered proven and better solutions at lower prices."


It seems like most of the users here on this forum prefer the SXGA+ screen, which has no multi-touch; the capacitive tech is for multitouch so it doesn't really affect the non-multi-touch group as much.

If the above comment is correct, I'd be worried about the capacitive input.

The ink of a capacitive touch screen definitely "flows" better
And it is the job of the developer to eliminate / reduce the electrical noise and interferences to the touch device
Maybe we cannot get the best of both worlds at the moment, but we'll see

snots wrote:"David B said:

The capacitive touch they implemented is bad and sensitive to electrical noises.... try to plug the AC adaptor to electricity without grounding and you will see that the "touch" will stop function. The resistive is much reliable than this specific capacitive. Toshiba and Lenovo offered proven and better solutions at lower prices."

Dell still ships/offers their laptops with two-prong AC adapters. Lenovo, as far as I am aware, does not. This is a non-issue.

milstein wrote:The ink of a capacitive touch screen definitely "flows" better
And it is the job of the developer to eliminate / reduce the electrical noise and interferences to the touch device
Maybe we cannot get the best of both worlds at the moment, but we'll see

should i be worried about the "ink flow" of a x61t then ? ( i have yet to try one for > 1 minute).

your comment implies that there is still a noticeable gap between ink flow on a tablet vs in real life; sure, there must be a difference, but it seems like its enough of a difference for you to consider changing screen technology..