Lawnmower in machine: If it stops when slapped, what is it??

[semiclue]

[Prelim note: In my Aug. 9 update below, I discover that this noise appears to come from the center or right palm rest, not the left, as I speculated throughout my first few posts here!]

The other night while browsing, my two month old X61 (specs in signature) started making a very loud lawnmower or leaf blower type noise. There was no 'ramp up,' it came out of nowhere. Seated in front of it, the noise could be heard well over TV or music, and it could also be heard from several feet away. Obnoxious! I put my ear to it to try to pinpoint where it was coming from, and while it could be heard loudly all across the palm rest, ground zero seemed to be the left side of the palm rest. This seems like it should be a big clue to which component is at fault: The noise will stop if I swat that area pretty hard a couple times. If I put my ear to it immediately after doing so, I hear what sounds like a motor slowing down quickly (kinda uneven and sickly tho...), and then the noise level will be back to normal.

It's happened twice now, and both times I let it go on for about a half hour before finally swatting it. It did not appear that it would ever have stopped, changed or lessened on its own. Both times I was only surfing simple informational and forum sites via wifi, on AC power. There were no simultaneous warnings or errors in event viewer. And I haven't changed anything recently, besides installing a new HDD last week (I did have some difficulty with that, namely one of the blinking cursor mysteries, but think I figured out why and all seems fine now). But this noise is not coming from anywhere near where the X61's HDD is located anyway, which is near top right corner of keyboard.

[Please note, I did familiarize myself with other frequently discussed types of noises. While I always have had some of those "typical" ones too, which bother some and not others, this new one does not appear to fall into any of those categories! E.g. simple CPU/C2D/Centrino whines; high pitch of fan kicking in; buzz while running on battery; HDD noises, etc. This one is random and not reproduceable; never occurred before three days ago; is VERY, indisputably loud; and stops when whacked! Therefore the commonly recommended noise experiments would surely not apply, e.g. RMclock, TPfancontrol, USB & CPU settings, etc. And these surely have no relation either, but FYI, I installed the latest BIOS many weeks ago, and don't see any updates on Lenovo's site that I might need, since they pretty much only refer to adding support for other models or issues I don't have.]

Did a quick search for an X61 diagram and for one thing, it looks like the fan is located on the left side of the palm rest (I don't have WWAN so I should have a single fan). Not sure what else is there or if it would be capable of making such a noise. Given the unique clues, which component do you think is causing this, and what might that thing be doing wrong? Any chance that something is/was just misaligned... and that maybe I knocked it into place or might, and it won't come back? At this point, it's surely too random for EZServ to succeed in witnessing, so sending it in would not be a good idea IMO. However, it will probably be going into storage for a few months soon, so I won't be able to monitor what, if anything, happens next either. That will bother me (especially since it's a new machine, and already the original HDD failed), even tho my warranty won't run out anytime soon. I'm willing to open it up if someone has a strong idea of what's going on, and thinks I can verify or better yet fix it myself.

Thanks much for any theories!!

[rkawakami]

Whacking the laptop could cause more problems than what you currently have. I'm not familiar with the placement of the cooling fan on your system but if the bearings are acting up, the sound could replicate a DC-3. Hitting the system might (temporarily) "fix" the fan but at the same time, you are subjecting your hard drive to the same impacts.

There could also be something impacting the fan blades. Just yesterday I took apart a DVR that I thought had a bad hard drive or fan and all it was was that a wire had moved so that the blades of the fan were hitting it.

[semiclue]

Thanks rkawakami! The bearing hypothesis sounded perfect til I just discovered my fan location error... So correction: I must have been looking at a diagram for the X61 with WWAN, because only that model has a (second) fan on the left side of palm rest. I don't have WWAN, so should not in fact have a fan in the spot the noise was apparently coming from. Sounds would really have to carry throughout a whole unit for this one to have actually been coming from the correct location of my only fan (at top left of keyboard). Then again -- the fan assembly as a unit might come forward far enough to be the culprit after all... Or maybe they put a second fan in but shouldn't have, and that's the problem! Yeah, probably not huh.

Could not find any diagrams that are kind enough to make all palm rest contents clear at once (much less for an individual model -- they combine two models and all types/configurations of them in one diagram), and the following is the best I could find. To make things worse, in it they have the speaker kit and second fan (that I don't have), #22 and #21, reversed!!

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... 62906.html

Don't know this stuff, but from the above the only components I can place at the left side of palm rest are PC card mechanics, speaker kit, and sort of the modem daughter card but that seems more to the center near the trackpoint buttons. But... have never used the PC card/SSD slot. This noise did *not* sound at *all* like a blown speaker or any kind of speaker problem. I was connected via wifi, not modem. And while it might make more sense if the noise had come from the right, where the wifi card and system board are shown, that really did not seem to be the case, unless sounds can bounce off stuff and play tricks on you within the palm rest.

Unless the fan assembly does come forward almost into palm rest, I can't understand which of the above, if that's all there is on the left side, could make a major noise that clearly stops when whacked! Help??? If nothing else, I want to understand the likely source/s better so that if I do send it in, I can be more on top of what they do and don't look at and try (since they may very well not be able to reproduce the noise). Would also love to 'ballpark' the seriousness, eek out a little peace of mind if fitting.

Yes btw, I did hate to whack the thing! Figured there was no reasonably 'safe' way to do that, even tho it was on a sturdy flat surface and held steady with my other hand as I spanked the left palm rest. (Next time, if there is a 'next time,' I'll try rebooting instead.) I thought it would at least shed huge light on what was up tho, if it would stop when slapped. But maybe not!

[semiclue]

...oh and also, since day one something in the palm rest area has clicked continuously once every couple seconds. I perceive that one to be coming from the left too, but not as strongly as I perceived the sudden obnoxious noise to be coming from the left. (The clicking sound can only be heard with ear against it, so it isn't bothersome. Just mentioning it in case it could be a clue -- no idea if that's normal or not. I also assume it shows that there must be a moving part in the palm rest, and I'm guessing the obnoxious noise could only be caused by a moving part...)

[fuscob]

The left palm rest houses the PC Card slot and SD card slot...I don't think there are any moving parts there. The closest moving part would be the fan, but it doesn't extend downwards toward the palm rest. Taking the keyboard off (just a few screws) might help you pinpoint the problem better.

By the way, hello to another X61 user in Chicago!

[semiclue]

Hi there neighbor! (Hey, don't suppose you're familiar with whether any of the local repair shops one can bring up on Lenovo's site will actually do warranty work? Apparently it's up to each shop, and many won't, even tho for some reason their listing with Lenovo says they will.)

Yeah, I'm stumped. *If* the fan bearings are the only part that could make that kind of LOUD, 'leaf blower' noise (wish someone would answer that...), then I guess I must have only thought that it was originating from the palm rest area.

Anyway. In further reading it sounded like bearing probs usually crop up on aging machines, or at least I didn't come across anyone describing what sounded like my same issue on a new one. On the other hand, I believe the X61 is one of the models that is said to have been given a sub-par if not faulty fan to begin with, and many complain about other, more 'normal' (but annoying) noises these make. So maybe it could fit. I even came across a fellow "lappy slapper" (only his was an HP). He took for granted that the prob was the fan, and none of the replies hypothesized otherwise.

I also read that loud noise can be created by the fan not being firmly bolted down. While that was mentioned together with bearing probs as possible cause in those posts, don't know if the noise generated by 'looseness' would actually be the same.

For bearing probs, many suggested cleaning and lubricating of course. But since my X61 is two months old and has only been used indoors at home, seems like dust and dirt couldn't be the issue. And as far as lube, seemed that most were saying that is something one can do to a failing/ailing fan to quiet it down and extend its life... If so, I of course wouldn't want to settle for that, since this lappy and its parts are just *beginning* their life. And since lubing involves removing and replacing a sticker, I gather that also tells the manufacturer that you've voided your warranty. So, I'll pass on trying that.

The 'leaf blower' hasn't gone off since those two times that occurred within 24 hours of each other several days ago (both 'stopped' with a firm slap to palm rest). But just like having your car make a horrible noise a couple times then stop for now, it probably didn't magically heal itself, so I guess I should face that something bad DOES lurk within. And apparently, if the fan goes it can take the system board with it. Easiest approach would be to disregard it for now, but I don't know if I can/should count on getting any more prior warnings.

Since at this point EZServ would likely not be able to reproduce the noise, by any chance are fan bearing problems something they can easily diagnose without even having to hear it? (That, along with whether there any other laptop parts that can cause a noise like this one are the primary questions I'm still hoping for input on.)

[semiclue]

...ok, it "finally" happened again last night. Made very sure to apply ear to machine exhaustively this time -- so scratch what I said about ground zero for the noise seeming to be left palm rest! I could hear it most loudly from over the Trackpoint's navigation buttons (the X61 only has those buttons, no combo/trackpad). Don't know if that may only be because the buttons present openings from which palm rest noise can escape more easily. But anyway, that center palm rest area was where it was loudest, and the runner up for loudest spot was actually to the right of that, not the left.

Can a wifi card make a (sudden, infrequent, ABNORMAL) loud buzzing racket? Or a system board...? That stuff is under the right palm rest. I was able to verify that it was not in fact coming from the fan/vent area (nor the hard drive, which I never did suspect).

Still hoping someone in the know might happen by! And still frustrated that it's apparently not a reproduceable problem so I can't have faith in sending it to the depot. The lappy has been on and usually connected via wifi since the first time this happened, and it took over a week for it to happen again. When it struck last night, instead of slapping it, shutting down or rebooting, I just put it on standby. Then when I woke it up today, it was making the noise again within minutes. So that might be one way to sustain/reproduce the symptom in the short run, but not long enough for it to reach the depot... (This time it stopped after I disabled then re-enabled both the wifi card and modem. Not positive which did the trick, but I assume it was the wifi card, since I don't/never have used the modem. The noise didn't stop upon disabling, but rather upon re-enabling.)

Helppp, can anyone confirm what the heck is in the center or right palm rest that can buzz/wail like a motor on steroids (and slow down like a sickly motor if whacked)?? Still can't say if it's a mechanical or electronic noise tho, since I don't really know how to differentiate.

[bananaman]

Did you watch the dissassembly/reassembly videos to see what is in that area?

[semiclue]

Hey, thanks! That was very helpful! The videos confirm that at the spot where it sure as heck seems like the noise is originating from when this occurs, there is the modem (center-ish of palm rest)... and the WLAN to the far right, but that looks TOO far right to match my perception of ground zero. The location of the WWAN would be much closer to my perception of the source, but I don't have WWAN (shouldn't have, anyway!).

Of course, I see the speaker innards are near the center of palm rest too, but this racket does not sound at all like any blown speaker issue (and the sound is fine). But, if speaker innards can malfunction and buzz loudly despite that, maybe that could be it... (I have not been doing/playing anything that emits sounds at these times tho, and I leave the volume low. Matter of fact, when it happened last night I was doing nothing at all since I had fallen asleep with it connected via wifi and resting on a forum page. This mystery noise woke me up!)

Once I was able to further pinpoint that the noise was from the center or right side of palm rest instead of left, I did expect it to turn out to be the WLAN, since its performance has always been horrific too. But again, now I see that its location is to the *far* right, and that doesn't seem to fit. Then again, what do I know.

Anyone know which of the parts mentioned above are even capable of making huge, 'overdrive,' buzzing noises when malfunctioning?

[qviri]

Anyone know which of the parts mentioned above are even capable of making huge, 'overdrive,' buzzing noises when malfunctioning?

It's fairly unlikely, but possible if a component has worked itself somewhat loose and goes into vibration for whatever reason. The noise would probably be amplified by the flat surfaces of the PCB and the notebook case itself.

If you feel up to it, you could open the notebook up and check the add-on cards, or the motherboard itself, for anything that may be loose.

I don't mean to undermine your diagnosis, but how confident are you about the location of the noise? Loud non-whine noises are generally caused by something that's moving, and disregarding vibrating components due to the unlikelihood mentioned earlier, that leaves the fan and the hard drive, both of which can theoretically work themselves into vibration and be knocked out of it by physical force.

Just a thought - will it be possible for you to remove the keyboard screws while waiting for the noise to appear again? That way you may be able to snap the keyboard out of the notebook without disrupting the source of the noise, and with the keyboard's large flat surface out of the way, it may be easier to pinpoint the source of the noise.

[semiclue]

Thanks so much for your help. No worries about undermining my 'diagnosis' lol, since when it comes to the mechanics of computers, I'm obviously just guessing! But as far as noise origination, I plastered my ear all over the surface of the dang thing until my neck was sore, since I knew by then that this might be a rare opportunity. (Also looked high and low for my micro cassette recorder, but couldn't find it! ) When putting my ear to top left area of keyboard (under which fan is located), or to top left side where exhaust vent is located, the noise was diminished greatly. Same with putting ear to top right of keyboard, under which HDD is located. Altho maybe it does seem coincidental that I had just replaced the HDD a few days before this started, and the machine had never made the noise before that. But, my plastered ear told me nooo it's not coming from there! Arrrgh! Then, at center palm rest and continuing to a lesser extent to the immediate right of that -- bingo!!

Your hypothesis about something being loose does seem like it could fit, maybe even more so considering that I haven't found anyone else describing what sounds like the same issue. If I do open it up to check for that, should I just tap stuff very gently with a pencil or something? If all is secured correctly, should nothing in there give/move at all (well, except the fan I assume)?

That's a good idea about leaving the screws out -- I hadn't known if it was safe to open it up and peer inside while it's powered up. But yes, the lappy is stationary these days and doesn't have to be my main machine, so if the keyboard can be prepped so that it will just lift out easily next time the belligerent noise occurs (and it's ok to do this), I will!

[Harryc]

I'd look into installing utilities that can park the drive heads and turn off the fan. NHC can do the fan, and the Active Shock Protection system can park the heads I believe. That way if the noise returns try both of those one at a time to see if it makes any difference.

[qviri]

Your hypothesis about something being loose does seem like it could fit, maybe even more so considering that I haven't found anyone else describing what sounds like the same issue. If I do open it up to check for that, should I just tap stuff very gently with a pencil or something? If all is secured correctly, should nothing in there give/move at all (well, except the fan I assume)?

I was thinking of a somewhat less subtle method of poking stuff with your fingers, but a pencil will work too. You're pretty unlikely to break anything that wasn't broken before. In addition to the add-on cards themselves, perhaps look at larger electrical components on all the boards, especially anything that's raised from the board a bit for whatever reason. And yeah, normally nothing should move.

Harry's suggestion is also a good one.

Whatever it ends up being, good luck.

[semiclue]

Thanks for expanding on that Qviri. As for the other of your earlier suggestions, can I assume it's 'definitely' ok to remove a pre-unscrewed keyboard/palm rest while the machine is powered on (and the noise is occurring)? That is, assuming caution about static discharge and any adverse location conditions, and no freaky simultaneous seismic or cosmic events, etc. I'd presumably just listen, not touch anything.

And thanks Harry. Yeah, what the heck, might as well try those out. The wording of the few options in APS is a little vague and confusing -- sounds to me like its "suspend" option might mean suspend its monitoring/control, not suspend the disk. And I don't see any other relevant options. But, if so then NHC could just cover both things you suggest.

Hadn't heard of NHC before you mentioned it. Wow, it can watch and control a lot of stuff. If the noise isn't affected when I stop the fan or disk -- which I kinda don't think it will be -- would you suggest trying any of NHC's other options? There always has been a lot of something going on in the palm rest at all times; like an electronic witch's brew, "*boil, boil, toil and trouble." And something in there clicks softly once every couple seconds. (But the latter are its 'normal' sounds; can really only be heard within inches; and I've assumed many similar C2D machines sound that way...) Maybe something related to all that goes haywire occasionally...

*Ok ok, apparently the correct quote is actually "Double, double, toil and trouble." But "boil, boil" describes the X61's weird electronic palm rest symphony better!

[Harryc]

Other suggestions, well yeah when the noise occurs, you could simply hit FN-F5 and turn off the wireless radio and bluetooth if you have it.

[qviri]

Thanks for expanding on that Qviri. As for the other of your earlier suggestions, can I assume it's 'definitely' ok to remove a pre-unscrewed keyboard/palm rest while the machine is powered on (and the noise is occurring)? That is, assuming caution about static discharge and any adverse location conditions, and no freaky simultaneous seismic or cosmic events, etc. I'd presumably just listen, not touch anything.

As long as you don't spill anything on the laptop with the keyboard off . I'm not sure where the keyboard connector is on the X61 - if possible, try to not unplug it when checking things out, as I'm not sure how the laptop will react to that. Presumably nothing a hard reset won't fix, but probably better not to take too much risk.

And just to clarify, poking things with fingers or pencils is definitely best done with the notebook off.

[semiclue]

Thanks guys! Soon I might be traveling for several weeks without this little dingbat (used as a term of endearment, of course ), but regardless, when/if ever there is a resolution to this I'll post what it was.

[semiclue]

Ok, looks like the wireless card was indeed the problem (tho I hope I'm not speaking too soon). A couple weeks after my last post, the wifi wouldn't connect at all. The connection applet would come up but its status bar went nowhere and it obviously wasn't even trying. When I would try to get into the WLAN settings, all my desktop shortcuts would blur and start flashing continuously; nothing could be selected or closed; and I could only turn the machine off at the power button.

Lenovo sent me a replacement card (after warning me that if I chose to do it myself and broke something in the process, my warranty would become void). After *installing the new card, I could again get into the WLAN settings fine to input my connection info. But I had a scare when I finished and clicked "Ok" -- the flashing icons and unresponsiveness struck again. Fortunately however, after restarting that time, everything seemed fine. I could use the settings area and finally get online again without problem.

It's only been a couple days, but I'm gonna go ahead and assume it's over now, and that the lawnmower noise won't be coming back either (fingers crossed). I think the new card is also giving me a better connection, yay!

*The only problem I had with installing the new card myself was that the original one was apparently mounted with some special screws, that are VERY hard to remove or even loosen. They became rather stripped in the attempt, and still hadn't budged even a hair. Fortunately, a local independent shop was able to remove them with a dremel for a few bucks. Can't remember exactly what they said, but it was something to the effect that the original screws were a type that had glue, or something that acted like glue (whatever!). But, um, I admit I hadn't paid attention to what kind of screwdriver was specified in the hardware manual, either.