No line-in recording on X61s?

Message

akorn · #1 Post by **akorn** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:38 am

I have been trying to record internet sound streams with audiograbber, but when I go to Control Panel -> Sound -> Recording, all there is as far as devices are concerned is the microphone. No line-in, no wav-out (checked Show Disabled/Disconnected Devices upon Right Click). This means that I can record what I hear through the speakers using... the microphone, in unacceptable quality!

Is this a limitation of the integrated SoundMAX sound card? According to Lenovo, the driver is up-to-date.

While this is a business notebook, recording streams (e.g. an internet-telephony conversion) should not be too far-out not to be supported.

I also own a A31 with a similar sound card (running XP Business) and there I have all I need accessible via the Mixer.

Thanks for any help!

X61s 7666-A8G, L7700 1.8 GHz, Vista Business

Blue Thunder · #2 Post by **Blue Thunder** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 5:52 am

Apparently the audio subsystem has been modified at the hardware level to remove this functionality. I think it only affects the '61 series as I'm able to record on my T60p. Heres a discussion about it relating to the X61 specifically (in that thread I was trying to figure out if the X60 series was affected) - http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?t=54671

akorn · #3 Post by **akorn** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:22 am

Thanks for that info. It is shameful how Lenovo treats their customer's basic rights to legal audio capture! Next step is to disable internet connectivity (in hardware!) to counteract terrorism?!

As I see it, the options are: buy VAC, buy an external PCI/USB sound card (a friend of mine did just that with his T61) or abandon audio capture all together.

Gets me thinking to maybe abandon Lenovo all together...

#4 Post by **bill bolton** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:32 pm

akorn wrote:It is shameful how Lenovo treats their customer's basic rights to legal audio capture!

Since there is no "line in" capability indicated in the X61 specification, the shameful thing is how users don't bother to research what they are buying!

Cheers,

Bill B.

qviri · #5 Post by **qviri** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:01 pm

This is a tough one; as far as I know, Lenovo do not say (on the specifications posted) that the *61 machines don't support this, and do state which audio chip they are using. The chip manufacturer's specification does say this is supported.

awolfe63 · #6 Post by **awolfe63** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:14 pm

Well - there is no "line-in" jack. How could there be a line-in capability? Ports are a limited resource these days and this seems to be one that most people don't need.

I have an external (USB) sound card - it was $19 and does both analog and digital. Since I need to be connected to some other device to record anyway - a USB device is not much of a hassle.

I know some earlier products could bypass line-out to line-in but this seems kind of silly these days - there are digital ways to capture output streams.

There must be some application that people don't want to talk about that has a few people so upset about this, but I can't figure out what it is. Either that, or people just get mad when any capability is taken away, whether it is important or not.

bananaman · #7 Post by **bananaman** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:35 pm

awolfe63 wrote:There must be some application that people don't want to talk about that has a few people so upset about this, but I can't figure out what it is. Either that, or people just get mad when any capability is taken away, whether it is important or not.

Yes I don't get that either. The OP wants to record Internet audio streams. There is plenty of legit software out there to record ANY audio an X61 can produce, including streams.

Blue Thunder · #8 Post by **Blue Thunder** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:46 am

I guess its the fact that you need to get something like VAC when previously you didn't (if I understand you correctly).

Anyway I do consider this feature important, even though I don't use it too often.

akorn · #9 Post by **akorn** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:26 am

bill bolton I agree with qviri: please show me/us the page with X61s specs that tells me that I cannot record audio streams without bying emulation software to circumvent a hardware restriction.

awolfe63 There is, of course, a physical line-in which aka microphone jack. And you can record using both the internal and an external mic, if that's what you want. I want to legally record an internet stream, digitally that is, not via speakers and microphone.

bananaman None of the legit software that records audio streams (phonostar, audiograbber, winamp) will work, if line-in and similar devices (Creative calls it 'what U hear') are disabled on the hardware level.

All this is subject to the impression I got from Blue Thunder and the thread he posted above. If qviri is right about the manufacturer specs, then the question is: why would Lenovo even bother to ask the sound-card manufacturer to produce a limited version of their sound card? Is it cheaper? To appease the music industry?

A solution would be that Lenovo supplies VAC free of charge, but that would mean that they admit they were wrong in the first place.

Angry young man

Blue Thunder · #10 Post by **Blue Thunder** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:47 am

Heh subject to me aye... Anyways heres the really, really long thread about the exact same issue (I believe) affecting the T61.

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... sc&start=0

Somewhere theres a link to the Lenovo forums where speculation about the RIAA is rife (actually theres probably speculation in the thread above too).

EDIT: I think its here

akorn · #11 Post by **akorn** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 5:35 am

Thanks, Blue Thunder, a nice thread. To spare people reading through 10 pages of posts, here is a link to an article ouside the Thickpad forum that sums it all up:
http://temporaryland.wordpress.com/2008 ... d-laptops/

The author of that article is "outraged", I used the word "shameful" above. I still feel that way about the deliberate restrictions imposed on me concerning digital audio recording. It's not about the money or effort that I may have to invest to solve this problem (I still feel I could not have found this out based on published specs), it's about my rights as a customer.

dr_st · #12 Post by **dr_st** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 5:37 am

Lenovo is not the one to blame though.

Blame Soundmax if you will, and agencies like the RIAA/MPAA.

bananaman · #13 Post by **bananaman** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:17 am

akorn wrote:bananaman None of the legit software that records audio streams (phonostar, audiograbber, winamp) will work, if line-in and similar devices (Creative calls it 'what U hear') are disabled on the hardware level.

I must be living in an alternate universe! I use Applian's Replay A/V to record Internet audio streams on my X61, and it works fine. I never used any of the software you mention.

akorn · #14 Post by **akorn** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:09 am

bananaman Ok?! So you obviously found another solution. If it's true that line-in (the article cited above calls it sound-mix) is disabled in the hardware of all 61 systems (as the article and threads claim), then this software uses a software emulation like VAC. That is my only explanation.

May I ask you to check what devices you have under Contol Panel -> Sound -> Recording? Be sure to right-click and check all options to display disabled/disconnected devices.

Finally, let me assure you that we live in the same universe. What I'm trying to find out here is how bad a universe it actually is.

#15 Post by **bill bolton** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:17 am

akorn wrote:please show me/us the page with X61s specs that tells me that I cannot record audio streams

Show me where it says that you can do that!

It does say you have a mic and a mic input.

akorn · #16 Post by **akorn** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:11 am

bill bolton Nice of you to defend Lenovo in this discussion. The thing that annoys me is that the availablity of this feature used to be a de-facto and maybe even an industry standard (it is mentioned in the AC97 specs, cf. the article linked above; whether this is binding, I cannot tell). As long as it's there, no one notices it as being something special and no manufacturer mentions it in the specs. As I said, I have it in my A31, for example, which also has a SoundMAX sound card (it was not mentioned in the specs then, either; I'll check that statement).

When something that one takes for granted is suddenly taken away, then one starts -- and should start! -- to ask questions. You are right that maybe one should not, legally speaking, expect a feature that is not explicitly mentioned. But then I'm not trying to sue Lenovo.

It is clear that there is no list of specifications intended for the end user that is exhaustive concerning features, computers are far too complex and end consumers are far too simple-minded to read and understand all the details. But I cannot help feeling like having bought a piece of advanced hardware that does not do what one expects it to do in the present-day multimedia world: recording an audio stream without having to buy additional hard- or software. The Windows sound recorder supplies this feature in principle (I'll check that on my A31).

A software analogy: Next thing Lenovo may do (who knows) is to disable changing the Desktop background, because they want all to run around with a Lenovo logo. Fair enough, they put the logo on the box, so why not also on the screen! Would you accept that? Of course not.
A hardware analogy: the specs speak of a standard keyboard. When you get the laptop, you find that -- accidentally or intentionally -- the Return key is not included. Fair enough, apart from the fact that it renders the computer useless for quite a variety of applications. Unacceptable, ain't it?

What's most frustating for me: I don't see the motivation behind all of this. Give me a reasonable explanation for why this feature is disabled (e.g. size and weight of the sound card, power consumption, cost efficiency etc.)!

If an industry standard (like AC97) does not exist that includes this feature, then one needs to create it and we have to make sure it is included in the specs.

loyukfai · #17 Post by **loyukfai** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 11:10 am

If it's a feature that used to be explicitly mentioned in the specifications, but is now not mentioned, then I will agree that the buyer has a certain responsibility for not doing his/her homework in advance.

But, we're talking about a feature which could be classified as "de facto", and never have been explicitly mentioned (so far I'm aware) in the specifications.

Although starting now, potential buyers should carefully check in advance for this feature. Having found out it's no more a "de facto" feature.

(It's my understanding that Dell's going to re-implement this feature on newer models, and have provided a work-around for certain models originally came without the stereo mix feature. OTOH, Lenovo is not going to re-implement this feature on newer models.)

I've posted it on another thread as well. The admins/moderators over forums.lenovo.com did almost the exactly same thing - They accused people that they should have looked at the specifications, but then they themselves could not point out where in the specifications has said or implied the lack of this (de facto) functionality.

Compare Lenovo's (non-)response to Dell's, makes you wonder what's actually happening.

P.S. Just found out it maybe the same Bill who's said such things over there...

http://forums.lenovo.com/lnv/board/prin ... format=one
http://forums.lenovo.com/lnv/board/prin ... format=one

(Sorry links will bring up print dialog because the "highlight" function over there doesn't seem to work...)

bananaman · #18 Post by **bananaman** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:26 pm

akorn wrote:bananaman Ok?! So you obviously found another solution. If it's true that line-in (the article cited above calls it sound-mix) is disabled in the hardware of all 61 systems (as the article and threads claim), then this software uses a software emulation like VAC. That is my only explanation.

May I ask you to check what devices you have under Contol Panel -> Sound -> Recording? Be sure to right-click and check all options to display disabled/disconnected devices.

Finally, let me assure you that we live in the same universe. What I'm trying to find out here is how bad a universe it actually is.

OK under Control Panel -> Sound -> Recording all I see is Microphone SoundMax Integrated Digital HD Audio Working.

I have verified that on my X61, with Replay AV, I can capture Internet radio streams and audio playing locally (like my CD tracks or mp3 playing through iTunes).

Maybe I just got lucky here. I've been reading this thread wondering what the problem is, and it turns out I am using a piece of software which solves it! Replay AV is downloadable from Applian, and has a demo mode.

Replay AV is like TiVo for audio and video on your PC, albeit with a quirky interface. I use it to automatically record a few streamed Internet radio shows.

I think WinPcap is part of the streaming capture magic, and the Replay AV Audio Driver does the local capture.

#19 Post by **bill bolton** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:27 pm

akorn wrote:bill bolton Nice of you to defend Lenovo in this discussion.

"Defend"

You made an assumption but are not prepared to live with the outcome of assuming rather than researching.

akorn · #20 Post by **akorn** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 3:26 am

Well, I'm doing the research now and get the impression that I had no chance of discovering this in October 2007 when I ordered my X61s. Of course, this is just another feeble excuse...

To follow up on my previous post: I checked and verified that on-board software available in XP and Vista is sufficient for recording audio streams (using MS Audio Recorder), as long as stereo mix is available.

Next thing I did was to compare specs published by Lenovo online. I checked my A31, T and X 60 and 61 series and cannot isolate the text string that is to convey to the end user that the 61 systems have lower audio recording capabilities than the 60 systems.

An example:
X60 specs on Audio
* Chipset is AD1981HD
* Intel High Definition Audio (Azalia) compatible
* One 0.5watt internal speaker (mono)
* 16-bit and 8-bit stereo playback and recording
* Microsoft DirectSound Ver9.0c or later supported
* Volume up, down, and mute buttons
* 1/8" audio in/out jacks:
o One for mono microphone with the fantom power.
o One for stereo headphone output

X61 specs on Audio
* Intel High Definition Audio (Azalia) compatible
* One 0.5watt internal speaker (mono)
* 16-bit and 8-bit stereo playback and recording
* Microsoft DirectSound Ver9.0c or later supported
* Volume up, down, and mute buttons
* 1/8" audio in/out jacks:
o One for mono microphone with the fantom power.
o One for stereo headphone output

Is the absence of "Chipset is AD1981HD" to tell me that stereo mix recording is no longer supported?

For what it's worth, I checked what "Microsoft DirectSound" implies: among other things, "Capture WAV sounds from a microphone or other input" is regulated. Admittedly, other input does not specify stereo mix. Bill, you win! And Lenovo's customers loose!

The bottom line is: Don't assume that Lenovo wants to empower its customers.

dr_st · #21 Post by **dr_st** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 4:40 am

This discussion is going nowhere fast.

All those that say "It's your fault, you should have researched that" - that's nonsense, pure and simple.

We are talking about a subtle functionality that a very small percentage of people uses, and that has been available in every audio device in the past 5 years (if not more). Nobody ever publishes it in any consumer specifications, so no matter how hard you will read them, you will not find any indication of whether it is available or not.

Moreover, because it had been available in every audio device, you wouldn't even think to question it. So you wouldn't go around asking "Is this feature still available?", which is the only way you can possibly find out that it has been disabled.

Now, those who immediately turn their outrage on Lenovo and accuse them of lying to their customers, cheating them, and what not - are also wrong, because it is part of the audio codec that is used by Lenovo (and any other laptop manufacturer), not produced by them.

akorn · #22 Post by **akorn** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:45 am

You are right, dr_st, pointing the finder does not solve the problem. I'm looking for solutions! Am currently investigating along the lines posted by bananaman: WinPcap. There must we non-commercial ways of redirecting an audio stream to a file bypassing the sound card.

"subtle functionality that a very small percentage of people uses"
Here I disagree: recording internet audio streams is multimedia mainstream these days, irrespective of whether it's legal or not in a specific case.

loyukfai · #23 Post by **loyukfai** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:50 am

dr_st wrote:...and that has been available in every audio device in the past 5 years (if not more). Nobody ever publishes it in any consumer specifications, so no matter how hard you will read them, you will not find any indication of whether it is available or not.

To set the fact straight, there have been reports since, at least, 2006 that, the stereo mix feature is found missing. See this example.

But for ThinkPads, it seems to be started from the ?61 series.

dr_st wrote:Now, those who immediately turn their outrage on Lenovo and accuse them of lying to their customers, cheating them, and what not - are also wrong, because it is part of the audio codec that is used by Lenovo (and any other laptop manufacturer), not produced by them.

According to the datasheet of the codec chip (AD1984) used on the X61, it's specifically mentioned "Selectable stereo mixer on outputs".

And there have been (at least one, cause I don't bother to find more links) report from a user of another brand and model, which also utilize the same codec, was able to bring back the stereo mix feature by changing the driver (.inf). But as far as I know, this is not doable on ThinkPads because the function is removed from the hardware level (the circuits are not there, see other threads here and on forums.lenovo.com).

Also, it's Lenovo's decision to use that particular chip. It's not the only one available.

But I agree that it's kind of moot to "argue" about it, who's at fault, so and so, here anymore... Maybe (really) disappointed owners can started contacting Lenovo directly and ask for a refund or make complaints or something like that...

So let's concentrate on how to find solutions here. Which Virtual Audio Cable (VAC) is reported to work, the full version costs USD30.

Using a audio cable connecting the headphone and microphone jacks will also work, but probably not as convenient and the quality is probably worse.

Now, we're looking at WinPcap, which as far as I know, is designed to capture network traffic. So while it may works for recording streaming audio, it probably will not work for other usages. I'm currently not at home so cannot test it right now. Will do so later.

Lastly, I sincerely wish all of you a nice weekend. : )

Edit: Just glanced over the Replay solutions, they all seem to work with streaming media only so, if that's what you need, then it's fine. But it's probably not a "stereo mix" replacement as in VAC.

#24 Post by **bill bolton** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:28 pm

dr_st wrote:- that's nonsense, pure and simple.

Assuming that something will never change is what is truly nonsense, pure and simple!

Cheers,

Bill B.

akorn · #25 Post by **akorn** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:49 am

On the path towards feasible non-commercial solutions, I have a working solution for those of you running XP: it's called Freecorder and plugs into Firefox, IE and Windows Explorer as an extra toolbar. It's from the same company producing the commercial software that bananaman was mentioning.

I have successfully recorded internet streams with it and you have a choice of mp3 (using lame) or wav as output. When installing, you can choose it to be installed only in Firefox or IE, or both.

I tried installing it under Vista and Firefox, but it crashes when I try to use it. I issued a support request and will keep this thread up-to-date. I did not try to install it into IE, as it does not work there when UAC is on (as you can read on the Freecorder webpage).

Hope this is of some help for the time being, until we claim this sound-card feature back from the manufacturers.

akorn · #26 Post by **akorn** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:21 pm

Second time around, I got Freecorder to work under Vista using Firefox 3.0.1. I de-installed it and re-installed it with administrator rights and turned off DEP for freecorder.exe (System -> Advanced System Settings -> Advanced -> Performance -> DEP). Now it works like a charm and I can record internet streams ad libitum.

Problem solved for me, thanks to all who contributed to restoring my X61s to a state it should have been in when I got it 11 months ago (NB: it took me a week to come up with this solution, not 11 months

).

christoph-de · #27 Post by **christoph-de** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:55 am

akorn wrote: Problem solved for me, thanks to all who contributed to restoring my X61s to a state it should have been in when I got it 11 months ago (NB: it took me a week to come up with this solution, not 11 months
).

Hello, I am looking for a solution to make "phonostar" (IP-radio software) work for recording on my T61. None of the emulation software I installed (breakaway pipeline 1, virtual cable 1) provides a recording source in the phonostar settings. I also bought a simple USB audio device (w/ headphones out, mic in) which did not work as well.

Anyone who has a working solution which provides a stereo-mix source? What kind of features is necessary for a USB sound card to work?

Regards

Christoph

agarza · #28 Post by **agarza** » Sun Oct 04, 2009 10:12 pm

I'd like to know the same thing, do USB audio cards work recording audio in stereo output and with decent quality? There are some cheapies around in online stores in my country but I don't know if those are any good.

I heard of ExpressCard audio capture devices, are those any good too? Any more info would be appreciated.

No line-in recording on X61s?

No line-in recording on X61s?

Re: No line-in recording on X61s?

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