Please talk me out of it! Help, I'm about to pull the trig..

[Ken Fox]

Another thing to consider, aside from those already mentioned. The X6x machines are now history, although a few NIB machines remain in the channel, mostly from places like ebay. Once these are exhausted there will only be used machines for sale. If you don't like the widescreen 16:9 form factor, and you want to lock in a system with a warranty, and with newer hardware, which will extend the length of time you will be able to continue to use a 4:3 subnotebook, almost netbook like machine. I'd prefer to have a brand new machine with a long warranty right now, and hope to hell that the laptop manufacturers will come to their senses and resume making 4:3 machines before my new one(s) has died.

ken

[dr_st]

How much better is the X61s compared to the X60s in terms of speed and heat ? I am looking at an X61s and an X60s which are priced almost identical, and the X60s seems less used. I understand one has a core 2 duo cpu versus a core duo in the other, but how perceptible would be the performance difference ?

That would depend quite a lot on the actual CPUs, as both X60s and X61s had several possible options.

Also, would it be a good idea to keep two 4-cell batteries for a slimmer profile instead of a single protuding 8-cell ? I read somewhere that alternating batteries in a notebook could somehow impair them.

I don't know anything wrong about alternating batteries, except that it is not very convenient, because you have to carry the extra battery separately, and then at some point when you need to switch, you have to hibernate the computer, switch the batteries, and turn it back on.

Also, don't forget that while the prismatic 4-cell has exactly half the capacity of the 8-cell, the unique slim 4-cell battery for the X6Xs series has less than half, so two slim 4-cells < one 8-cell.

Other idea: would it make sense to puchase a new battery and not use it, saving it for whenever the current one needs replacement and you wouldn't have to hunt for it when it becomes rarer ?

This is generally not advised. Batteries degrade even if you don't use them. Granted, they do it slower than if used, but they do it none the less. If you buy a battery now, keep it in the fridge for 2 years, and then start using it, its capacity will not be as good as that of a new battery.

On the other hand, batteries remain in production a long long time after the laptops that use them are phased out. You can still find laptops for T4x/R5x easily, and laptops for X3x and older models are still available, even if not so common. I think your machine will long become obsolete or break altogether before battery supply becomes a problem.

[archer6]

How much better is the X61s compared to the X60s in terms of speed and heat ? I am looking at an X61s and an X60s which are priced almost identical, and the X60s seems less used. I understand one has a core 2 duo cpu versus a core duo in the other, but how perceptible would be the performance difference ?
Also, would it be a good idea to keep two 4-cell batteries for a slimmer profile instead of a single protuding 8-cell ? I read somewhere that alternating batteries in a notebook could somehow impair them.
Other idea: would it make sense to puchase a new battery and not use it, saving it for whenever the current one needs replacement and you wouldn't have to hunt for it when it becomes rarer ?

I purchased an X61s to compare to my X60s and found the X60s to be cool and quiet as compared to the hot palmrest and noisy fan of the X61s. In terms of performance short of benchmarking them, they seemed the same in my regular usage. I sold the X61s after just 10 days, as it was just too hot, and too noisy, a characteristic that was shared by three other X61s, that were purchased by my employees. As far as batteries go, they age from the moment they are built and should be stored about 50% charged for maximum shelf life. Limited to X number of cycles, it's a good idea to not by a spare unless you need it. I have two slim 4 cells, as I like to keep the laptop light and well balanced. The 4 cell enhanced and the larger long life batteries make the back of the laptop thicker and the long life protrudes out of the back about an inch or more.

Cheers...

[visitor]

So if I understand the second fan in the X61s cannot be turned off making it noisier than the X60s. But OTOH would this imply that, in case no Wwan card is installed, the X61s gets overall better cooling ?

As to the battery if mine comes with the 8-cell I will certainly get either the original or the 4-cell enhanced. Two bad a new battery can't be stored for future replacement.

One other question:
If Windows XP is used, is it better to max RAM and have it recognize 3 gb (of the 4gb) or would it make sense to have only 2gb for the sake of dual-RAM mode ?

[makai]

I'm still in the semi-undecided frame of mind. Not crazy anymore, but still thinking about it. Now though, it seems the x60s would be the way to go instead of x61s.

By the way, if anyone's interested, Newegg has Open Box x60 4-cell for $58. They must have a few of these as its limited to "2 per custormer"
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 834995060R

[Ken Fox]

I'm still in the semi-undecided frame of mind. Not crazy anymore, but still thinking about it. Now though, it seems the x60s would be the way to go instead of x61s.

By the way, if anyone's interested, Newegg has Open Box x60 4-cell for $58. They must have a few of these as its limited to "2 per custormer"
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 834995060R

The link is for an X60 series TABLET battery. THIS WILL NOT FIT an X6x/X6xs machine.

ken

[visitor]

X60s 2508-A69 3gb RAM 80gb HD 5400
X61s 7666-B44 2gb RAM 120gb HD 5400
Neither have wWan, both have 8-cell battery, same price.

Which of the two would be a better pick for heat/noise ?

[makai]

The link is for an X60 series TABLET battery. THIS WILL NOT FIT an X6x/X6xs machine.

That goes to show how much I know about the X6x series!

[visitor]

I understand you Makai, it is a frustrating thing that a same Thinkpad model has a number of different versions (identified by the code numbers like the ones I showed in my previous post). You can look up Tabook for such numbers but often you will not find them because their older machines. Not only that, but even when you find the number you're looking for you might read that "some" have this, "some" have that etc. It apparently doesn't state which CPU family is used and other details that could be of critical importance.

[archer6]

That goes to show how much I know about the X6x series!

I wouldn't think twice about a mistake that small. After all, with all the models & configurations of ThinkPads, it an easy mistake to make.
.
You're intentions are what counts and you were making a good attempt to give back to our community. So I say thanks for your efforts!
.
Cheers...

[makai]

I understand you too visitor!

...and then there's CTO... especially when buying used.

Actually, the x6x series are the only laptop that has confused me so much. On this forum, there are questions about batteries between the x60's and x61's and whether they were interchangeable, then there are questions about the tablet batteries and if they were the same (obviously, I now know they're not). There are also questions about which family of CPU is installed, and when did Lenovo switch over to C2D in X60's. Then the docking stations are different too, so you have to be careful about which model you buy or you'll end up with one that's for a tablet instead of a non-tablet. I think all my questions are answered now since I did a lot of research. I just didn't notice that the battery I linked was for a tablet... inexperience with this model made me miss that! I have all the Tabooks, and I use them religiously for reference, but yes, when the model isn't in there, or its a CTO, then you end up going with what the seller has stated in his description.

It's fun though... researching things about something you might want to buy, and help/discussion in a forum such as Thinkpads, surely helps. I'm still considering it, and it seems that I might be leaning toward the x60s moreso than the x61s... although, now my mind is asking if I really want to go back a generation in the model line. Each one has its own merits and demerits, so much more things to consider.

archer6... you posted just as I was about to post... Thanks for that!

[archer6]

<snip> I might be leaning toward the x60s moreso than the x61s... although, now my mind is asking if I really want to go back a generation in the model line.

Just a thought: I compared my X60s vs. my X61s very carefully. I partially disassembled them just for that purpose (I can't leave anything alone...heh!) Personally I don't see them as a generation apart as there is so little difference between them. Mainly from a day to day usage standpoint its the heat and noise of the X61s as compared to the X60s that caused me to sell the 61. And that says a lot, as I rarely sell my ThinkPads. The list in my signature line only represents my favorites (it's not there to brag) that I've kept and is there only for the purposes of encouraging others with the same models to ask me questions. At the end of the day, having the experience I've had with the 12.1" X models the X60s is the star. Yet that's only my opinion.
.
Cheers...

[makai]

Mainly from a day to day usage standpoint its the heat and noise of the X61s as compared to the X60s

This is what makes me lean toward the X60s. I've read a lot on the subject of heat on these laptops, and everything points to the wireless card being under the right palmrest for heat in that area. However, if that were the case, then you would think both models would be the same... given the cards were the same. I think the major heat factor has to do with the FSB differences and the fact that said difference requires everything attached to run at that speed... thus more fan operation. PWM is also probably working harder on the X61s, which generates even more heat... and although I don't know if Lenovo redesigned it for the higher FSB in the X61s... I would hope they did.

Has anyone ever compared the PWM readings of X60x versus X61x using NHC? From what I've read, I think NHC supports the X6x series.

[pgoelz]

I purchased an X61s to compare to my X60s and found the X60s to be cool and quiet as compared to the hot palmrest and noisy fan of the X61s. In terms of performance short of benchmarking them, they seemed the same in my regular usage. I sold the X61s after just 10 days, as it was just too hot, and too noisy, a characteristic that was shared by three other X61s, that were purchased by my employees.

FWIW, I just aquired an X61s without the LAN card (Vista Ultimate x64). Idling or browsing the web with power management set to balanced, it runs very cool with the fan either off or at the very lowest (totally inaudible) setting. When watching recorded TV with CPU utilization running around 40%, it is warmer but by no means hot. The fan is still inaudible unless you put it to your ear. So if you don't have the second fan to deal with an X61s should be very quiet. My palm rest is never beyond merely "warm".

When I first got it, power management had not been set up and yes it did run hotter and you could (barely) hear the fan.

Paul

[visitor]

compared my X60s vs. my X61s very carefully. I partially disassembled them just for that purpose

archer6, I appreciate your sharing your comparison efforts. Were the X60s that you chose the ones with the L2400 chip or of the "T" line? I wonder how much they differ.

aquired an X61s without the LAN card (Vista Ultimate x64). Idling or browsing the web with power management set to balanced, it runs very cool with the fan either off or at the very lowest (totally inaudible) setting. (...) So if you don't have the second fan to deal with an X61s should be very quiet. My palm rest is never beyond merely "warm".

Paul, thanks for sharing experience. A few questions:
1- By "without the LAN card" do you mean you gave up abg wi-fi in your X61s, or it's a separate card for wireless broadband that it came without ?
2- Could the 2nd fan be set to "off" in XP as well or is it a Vista-only feature ?
3- How hot does the X61s get on your lap ?
4- Since you have a 64-bit system, have you considered maxing the RAM up to 8gb as others have done in an X61s ?

[EOMtp]

... with the 12.1" X models the X60s is the star. Yet that's only my opinion.

Nonsense -- that's not an opinion; that's a fact! (Also excellent, perhaps in a different class/category, is the X200s.)

[pgoelz]

aquired an X61s without the LAN card (Vista Ultimate x64). Idling or browsing the web with power management set to balanced, it runs very cool with the fan either off or at the very lowest (totally inaudible) setting. (...) So if you don't have the second fan to deal with an X61s should be very quiet. My palm rest is never beyond merely "warm".

Paul, thanks for sharing experience. A few questions:
1- By "without the LAN card" do you mean you gave up abg wi-fi in your X61s, or it's a separate card for wireless broadband that it came without ?
2- Could the 2nd fan be set to "off" in XP as well or is it a Vista-only feature ?
3- How hot does the X61s get on your lap ?
4- Since you have a 64-bit system, have you considered maxing the RAM up to 8gb as others have done in an X61s ?

I have a WiFi card just like you do. What I don't have is the WLAN (ie., cell network) card, which necessitates a second fan.

Since I have never had a second fan I can't comment on whether or not it can be turned off. I suspect not.

When watching MPEG2 video at about 40% CPU utilization, it gets warm enough to feel it but in no way uncomfortable. The bottom is slightly warmer than the palm rest. The fan is just barely audible in a dead quiet room.

I am not sure I need to add RAM (it has 2GB already) because I don't plan on doing any really CPU/memory intensive tasks with it. I do have Adobe Premiere Elements on it so I can edit video if I need to but that will normally be done on my desktop. I figure the 64 bit OS will buy me more memory space per program than upping the RAM, since the page file can take over when I run out of ram. The HD is relatively fast (compared to my X41, anyway). Plus 8GB of RAM is still pretty expensive.

Paul

[archer6]

I just aquired an X61s without the LAN card (Vista Ultimate x64). Idling or browsing the web with power management set to balanced, it runs very cool with the fan either off or at the very lowest (totally inaudible) setting. When watching recorded TV with CPU utilization running around 40%, it is warmer but by no means hot. The fan is still inaudible unless you put it to your ear. So if you don't have the second fan to deal with an X61s should be very quiet. My palm rest is never beyond merely "warm". When I first got it, power management had not been set up and yes it did run hotter and you could (barely) hear the fan.

I do not doubt your report whatsoever, I'm simply reporting my experience and that of three of my employees that also bought the same X61s models.

Unlike the X60s, the X61s models were inconsistent in the way they performed. Some were hot like mine (even after properly setting up power management) and others were not. Based on the three others I cited and the number of reports I read when they were released, they did seem generally less consistent than the X60s models. We did not have wwan broadband cards in either, and only one fan.

Cheers...

[pgoelz]

Wow, interesting. Either the fan was not running at an appropriate speed or there was a big difference in power dissipation from one machine to the next. Mine was definitely hotter before I fine tuned the power management though.

Paul

[archer6]

archer6, I appreciate your sharing your comparison efforts. Were the X60s that you chose the ones with the L2400 chip or of the "T" line? I wonder how much they differ.

Most specifically, my X60s is a 1705-24U. It has the Core Duo L2300 1.5GHz processor. Without a doubt (as I've had four new X60s models, of different machine types) this specific model is silent, cool, and quite fast for the speed of the processor.

Then for performance I bought an X61, 7675-92U. It's a Core 2 Duo T7500 2.20GHz which interestingly, runs cooler (yet quite warm) than my X61s did. Both of these had 7200 rpm drives until I began experimenting with SSD drives in my X60s.

Cheers...

[Nubulin]

Just make the plunge....

I just got an X61s off ebay for $630 NOIB with bluetooth, fingerprint reader, and 8 cell. Ordered all the parts to install WWAN are on the way.

I can't believe how nice the size and weight is and the screen is very readable. It will make a nice portable compliment to my T60p that will now stay home a lot more.

[archer6]

<snip>Mine was definitely hotter before I fine tuned the power management though

As was mine, but relative to the X60s, the X61s was a lot warmer and when pushing it, downright hot. This is not being critical of the X61s, and I can assure you that the fan was operating properly, it's simply a difference between the two machine types. I'm not suggesting they are all that way, but there are quite a few.

[meumar]

I have had an x61s for about a year now - I never had any problems with it running hot & the keyboard is really great. I've switched now though to an x61t that I got used and I have to say that in comparison the screen is absolute crap on the x61s.

I'm not sure what your x31's screen is like, but my x61s has a really dull, dead looking screen with poor contrast and very, very poor viewing angles. I tried to overlook the problems with the screen while I was using it - and it was ok, I guess - but really, using the tablet now makes me realize how much the other screen did bother me. The x61s has easily the worst screen of any laptop I've used, and for me, it makes the whole computer feel cheaper as a result.

[makai]

Just make the plunge....
I just got an X61s off ebay for $630 NOIB with bluetooth, fingerprint reader, and 8 cell... <snip>

I was also looking on ebay and probably even looked at this one in passing. Seeing as you're a brand new user to the X61s, can you report your findings about the palmrest heat issue thus far? It would be nice to know how you judge your temps to be, as this is the #1 issue stopping me from purchasing.

I can't believe how nice the size and weight is and the screen is very readable.

All things considered, the only reason I would want an x6x series is for a speed increase. My x31 also has a 12" screen, and it too is very readable. I don't think a higher res would work for a 12" screen... at least not for my aging eyes! As for weight, my x31 weighs in at 3lbs 10oz on my digital scale with it's 6-cell battery, so the weight isn't too far different than the x6x with an 8-cell.

[visitor]

Trigger pulled. I was torn between an X61s that seemed quite used with 2gb RAM and an X60s looking almost new, with 3gb, same price. Chose the X60s, which is 2508-A69 and uses the L2400 chip (1.66 ghz). Due Monday evening, I hope it doesn't get too hot or noisy. If anyone's interested I'd be pleased to report first impressions.
For a better apparent condition and hopefully less heat, I gave up the X61s's extra speed and the choice of using 8gb RAM. For performance sake I will keep my MacBook Pro sitting home where heat and portability aren't issues for video encoding and pro audio and will take the X60s everywhere like a netbook (despite the 8-cell, which I hope to eventually replace for a slim 4-cell).
Thanks everyone for providing very valuable information which helped me make a decision.

[makai]

Hey visitor! Good for you! I hope you have good luck with your new toy. Be sure to drop by and let me know how it's going. I'm still in the hunt!

[Ken Fox]

I have had an x61s for about a year now - I never had any problems with it running hot & the keyboard is really great. I've switched now though to an x61t that I got used and I have to say that in comparison the screen is absolute crap on the x61s.

I'm not sure what your x31's screen is like, but my x61s has a really dull, dead looking screen with poor contrast and very, very poor viewing angles. I tried to overlook the problems with the screen while I was using it - and it was ok, I guess - but really, using the tablet now makes me realize how much the other screen did bother me. The x61s has easily the worst screen of any laptop I've used, and for me, it makes the whole computer feel cheaper as a result.

I've owned an X31, an X32, two X60s, two X60 tablets, and now an X61 tablet, an X61, and multiple X61s machines, some with the ultralight screen and some without.

There is no doubt that the IPS screen on an X6x tablet is "superior" to the standard TFT screen on an X61(s). That having been said, it is really noticeable only when used outside in bright light, or when one attempts to view the screen at an odd viewing angle. 12" laptops are not generally used far enough from your face that viewing angles become much of a concern.

I like a good screen as much as anyone else; in fact, I have two T60 flexview machines, one of which is a T60P uxga+ and is my usual in-the-comfortable-chair at home laptop.

Nonetheless, it is a huge and gross overstatement to say that the X61 and X61s have "the worst screen of any laptop I've used," unless you are a graphic artist or have supernormal vision. For the vast majority of people out there, the stock X61 and X61s screen is fully usable and (may I dare to say) good, when used in the usual conditions they will be used, at a normal viewing distance for a 12" laptop, and used by people with reasonable expectations for what they are going to find in a sub-3 pound laptop with the form factor of a small travel one spindle notebook computer.

The X6x tablets do in fact have better screens. Unfortunately they are big and heavy and have the form factor of a 14" T60/T61, and aren't something I'm going to lug on a long trip, except if we are speaking about a road trip in the car.

ken

[archer6]

<snip>Nonetheless, it is a huge and gross overstatement to say that the X61 and X61s have "the worst screen of any laptop I've used," unless you are a graphic artist or have supernormal vision. For the vast majority of people out there, the stock X61 and X61s screen is fully usable and (may I dare to say) good, when used in the usual conditions they will be used, at a normal viewing distance for a 12" laptop, and used by people with reasonable expectations for what they are going to find in a sub-3 pound laptop with the form factor of a small travel one spindle notebook computer.

Kudos.... very well said.

Cheers...

[meumar]

There is no doubt that the IPS screen on an X6x tablet is "superior" to the standard TFT screen on an X61(s). That having been said, it is really noticeable only when used outside in bright light, or when one attempts to view the screen at an odd viewing angle. 12" laptops are not generally used far enough from your face that viewing angles become much of a concern.

I like a good screen as much as anyone else; in fact, I have two T60 flexview machines, one of which is a T60P uxga+ and is my usual in-the-comfortable-chair at home laptop.

Nonetheless, it is a huge and gross overstatement to say that the X61 and X61s have "the worst screen of any laptop I've used," unless you are a graphic artist or have supernormal vision. For the vast majority of people out there, the stock X61 and X61s screen is fully usable and (may I dare to say) good, when used in the usual conditions they will be used, at a normal viewing distance for a 12" laptop, and used by people with reasonable expectations for what they are going to find in a sub-3 pound laptop with the form factor of a small travel one spindle notebook computer.

The X6x tablets do in fact have better screens. Unfortunately they are big and heavy and have the form factor of a 14" T60/T61, and aren't something I'm going to lug on a long trip, except if we are speaking about a road trip in the car.

I have to disagree -- but ultimately, obviously, this is a matter of personal preference.

I really think the x61 and x61s have substandard screens - especially for the price that they were originally sold at. I found that this was noticeable all the time, and it did bother me. It wasn't so much the lack of viewing angles as it was the lack of contrast and the washed out look of the screen.
And, of the laptops I've used - a toshiba (which sucked overall), an LG, a panasonic toughbook - which is lighter than the x61s w/ 8-cell, a sony viao w/ 13.3" screen, and now the x61t, the x61s does have the worst screen, in my opinion. Given my preference for standard ratio, matte screens, the x61t and the LG have/had the best.

Also, I originally went for the x61s over the x61t because I felt that the tablet would be too heavy. Now that I have the tablet, I really don't notice the extra weight that much at all - I certainly wouldn't call it "big and heavy."

As I said, ultimately this is personal preference and very subjective, but though I enjoyed using my x61s for a year, I probably wouldn't have bought it if I had had a chance to view the screen in person beforehand.

[Ken Fox]

Regarding the screen of an X61s; one thing I did not mention, which may or may not be relevant, is that I profile all my laptop and desktop screens with a "spyder-like" device, in this case an older generation "Eye One Display." Each one of my laptops has a unique laptop color profile based upon the screen of the particular computer. Whether this has any impact on such things as screen contrast I do not know. I do this because of occasional use of Photo editing software.

ken