Thinkpads Forum

I'm now on my third "X" machine (x40; x60s; x61s) and I don't get all the fuss about netbooks. Granted, original retail on my X's cost much more than an Asus, but then the X's have always been full force computers and not wannabes. You can now dip into the refurb/used market for $400-$800 for the full power x60s-x61s models.

I've tried a couple of netbooks and have to agree, I'm keeping my 2.7 pound X40. I think 1) people have different needs, like needing something physically smaller than an X40, 2) people haven't used an X40/X41/X60s/X61s/X200s or similar non-IBM machine, 3) don't realize that used, many of these cost less than netbooks and perform better, or 4) are just caught up in a trend.

Netbooks are a nice cheap alternative for people who need something small, light and portable for web-activities (browsing, email, chats) or multimedia on the road.

They are also nice little toys for people who cannot afford full-fledged notebooks.

True, a brand new netbook and an older, used business class ultralight (like Thinkpad X), will probably cost roughly the same and provide roughly the same performance. The X might be more durable, but the accumulated wear and tear will offset that.

And yes, you can even get some good deals for a used latest generation X model, which will be much more powerful, at a price comparable to a new netbook. But you can get a used netbook for much less then. And some people just don't feel comfortable buying used hardware.

There are at least 4 more reasons why certain people would prefer a netbook over a used, several-year-old X-series Thinkpad:

1) Most netbooks (except perhaps the 12" ones) have smaller footprints than the X series, so for people who need something that's as small as possible, netbooks would be better. And thanks to the widescreen, the keyboards of some of these netbooks are actually roughly the same size as the X-series'.

2) Most if not all netbooks use touchpads, which many people (including me) prefer over the trackpoint of the X-series.

3) A few netbooks have higher resolution (i.e. 1280x768, 1366x768, 1600x768) than the double-digit, non-tablet X-series Thinkpads (1024x768). Of course, the X30* and the X200s have 1440x900, but these are far more expensive.

4) New netbooks come with warranty.

dstrauss wrote:I'm now on my third "X" machine (x40; x60s; x61s) and I don't get all the fuss about netbooks.

I too own a handful of X models and they are amongst my very favorites in my ThinkPad collection. Yet that said, I'm thoroughly enjoying my 10.2" IdeaPad S10 Netbook. And why? It's all about the portability, fun, and using an inexpensive, very well built machine to simply grab and go. When one is going to stop off at a local Starbucks, or wherever one might go to relax when out and about, they're terrific.

If we keep in mind they are _NOT_ supposed to replace or serve as ones main laptop, then the context of their usage becomes quite clear. It's a Netbook, an inexpensive secondary machine. If I want to take a computer I take a ThinkPad, if I want to just toss something into my backpack for the purpose of surfing and email then it's the IdeaPad hands down. If I scratch it, or ding it, or heaven forbid drop it, my exposure is far less in time and money than if the same thing happened with one of my ThinkPads.

That's my 2 cents worth...

Cheers...

archer6 wrote:It's a Netbook, an inexpensive secondary machine.

Actually, to me it would be ternary. I still believe in desktops, and have one, making the laptop(s) secondary machine(s).

dr_st wrote:Actually, to me it would be ternary. I still believe in desktops, and have one, making the laptop(s) secondary machine(s).

A what... did you say desktop?

Archer6 pauses, a quizzical look comes over his face as he tries to remember if he'd ever seen a "desktop" in the "old school days" ...ha...ha...ha... (just kidding)

Kudos' for the great humor and terrific choice of words! I concur, for those of you with desktops, a netbook would indeed be ternary. A word that reminds me of chemistry class....heh!

Cheers...

archer6 wrote:Archer6 pauses, a quizzical look comes over his face as he tries to remember if he'd ever seen a "desktop" in the "old school days" ...ha...ha...ha... (just kidding)

Every once in a while, I do play video games, and this is one area where laptops always lag behind. At least serious business models, like the Thinkpads. So it is handy to have a desktop PC around. Well, that, and also faster, more reliable DVD burners, more storage space that can be cramped into it, CPUs that top higher (QX9650, can you say?) and you understand why I think it's worth it to keep one desktop PC around.

I would not really consider a 17" overheating Alienware or similar monstrosity as an alternative... To some people, it's the best of both worlds, to me, it's the worst of them. I prefer to actually have both worlds.

dr_st wrote:Actually, to me it would be ternary. I still believe in desktops, and have one, making the laptop(s) secondary machine(s).

Excellent point. For my main rig, I too prefer desktops over laptops. For several years, my main rigs were laptops because I thought they saved space and were more convenient -- see this thread. In theory that was correct, but in practice, I now think that desktops are actually more convenient (e.g. I don't have to lock it up every night, and I don't have to baby them) and take up less space on my desk (because they sit on the floor).

dr_st wrote:Well, that, and also faster, more reliable DVD burners, more storage space that can be cramped into it, CPUs that top higher (QX9650, can you say?) and you understand why I think it's worth it to keep one desktop PC around.

All true. Over the years, I have gotten about half dozen desktops for dirt cheap or even free, and they performed as well as laptops that cost at least ten times more. And when a DVD burner dies, a new drive costs only $20.

I have never owned netbooks and am planning on buying one in about a year. I wonder if I will still need my current laptops (T43p, T42 and 240Z) after getting a netbook. The T43p and T42 are too heavy to carry around, whereas the 240Z is too slow. So, for me, netbooks may actually be better than laptops as secondary machines.

dr_st wrote: Every once in a while, I do play video games, and this is one area where laptops always lag behind. At least serious business models, like the Thinkpads. So it is handy to have a desktop PC around. Well, that, and also faster, more reliable DVD burners, more storage space that can be cramped into it, CPUs that top higher (QX9650, can you say?) and you understand why I think it's worth it to keep one desktop PC around.

I would not really consider a 17" overheating Alienware or similar monstrosity as an alternative... To some people, it's the best of both worlds, to me, it's the worst of them. I prefer to actually have both worlds.

Excellent points!

I'm such a bloody workaholic, who travels constantly, that I've simply never made the time for a desktop. However that said I've begun to reduce my travel time.

Now that _YOU_ have me thinking about it, I _would_ enjoy one for some gaming, and to use as a server. Any suggestions as to a good desktop for the needs (see how quickly I decided I "needed one"...heh!) I've outlined. Something that is moderately priced as my usage would be part time.

Honestly when it comes to desktops I'm clueless, as I simply have not researched them. And of course my first preference (unless unwise) would be something from Lenovo.

Thanks in advance, for any and all suggestions from my fellow ThinkPadders!

Cheers...

underclocker wrote: "people haven't used an X40/X41/X60s/X61s/X200s or similar non-IBM machine".

There are a lot of people who not only haven't used an X series machine, they've never seen one.

I have a friend who has 4 kids in college, all with notebooks. I asked him how his kids got their notebooks and the answer was "over the counter". As best he can recall, they came from Best Buy, Sam's Club and Circuit City. None of those places carry anything like an X series, except for a netbook.

I imagine if all you've ever seen or owned are the kind of machine stocked in big box stores, it's likely you may think a netbook is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

(Sometimes I think we forget that members of this forum are a very small minority of the people buying and using computers.)

dsvochak wrote:I imagine if all you've ever seen or owned are the kind of machine stocked in big box stores, it's likely you may think a netbook is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Well said, and so very true. From my perspective, another great "feature" of netbooks is their low price point as compared to the consumer grade (read "cheaply built" in most cases) notebooks in the retail stores. The low price (just $349 for my IdeaPad S10) allows many people who may not otherwise be able to afford a laptop, to buy a netbook.

A perfect example is my IdeaPad S10. Prior to ordering it I purposely lowered my expectations as I felt the low price would bring many compromises. Well I was very wrong.

It's build quality is every bit as good as any ThinkPad I have including my much loved X60s, my T60p, and my very well made W500. Frankly I was shocked when I unboxed my IdeaPad to find how solid the keyboard is and the totally squeak free chassis. There is no question in my mind that the IdeaPad S10 will easily outlast many a cheap Toshiba, Gateway, or Dell.

The LED backlit display is clear and crisp with great colors, and the speakers are better than any of my 60 series models. The other surprise was how nice the TouchPad is, as I'm a TrackPoint man myself. And yet the TouchPad is very accurate and provides good tactile response. It has changed my outlook on them completely. And while I still prefer the TrackPoint, it no longer is the "only input device for me".

I could not be happier with the S10, and have several friends who have bought them after trying mine.

Cheers...

dsvochak wrote:... I imagine if all you've ever seen or owned are the kind of machine stocked in big box stores, it's likely you may think a netbook is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

(Sometimes I think we forget that members of this forum are a very small minority of the people buying and using computers.)

Excellent points...guess I never really thought of it that way. I do forget the stares I get at the airport with my x61s sitting next to the guy with with the 6lb HP lappy...

archer6 wrote:Now that _YOU_ have me thinking about it, I _would_ enjoy one for some gaming, and to use as a server. Any suggestions as to a good desktop for the needs (see how quickly I decided I "needed one"...heh!) I've outlined. Something that is moderately priced as my usage would be part time.

Can't help you here, since desktops is one thing that I don't buy pre-assembled. I carefully select all the parts, and assemble them myself. It's more fun this way.

archer6 wrote:Honestly when it comes to desktops I'm clueless, as I simply have not researched them. And of course my first preference (unless unwise) would be something from Lenovo.

I'm a huge fan of Dell desktops. They work well, look nice, and are very affordable. I think I'll be buying only Dell desktops (and external LCDs) for the rest of my life!

I know nothing about Lenovo desktops but there must be reasons why so few people buy them.

pianowizard wrote:I know nothing about Lenovo desktops but there must be reasons why so few people buy them.

A quick digression... Lenovo doesn't really market their desktops to the retail market, certainly not like Dell and HP do. Plus the equivalent Lenovos are more expensive.

hausman wrote:A quick digression... Lenovo doesn't really market their desktops to the retail market, certainly not like Dell and HP do. Plus the equivalent Lenovos are more expensive.

Indeed. Same thing as with the Lenovo monitors (or at least the monitors they used to make). Some of them were very high-quality, and yet you almost didn't see them outside the corporate environments. Talking about things like L200p, L201p, L191p, L192p, L190x, L220x.

It's funny how from netbooks this thread got to desktops. Glad I could contribute to it.

Actually with all the neat cases, components and stuff out there for desktops today, I would enjoy building one if I had the time. That said, I'm truly afraid of Dell's as I know so many skilled ThinkPad computer users that bought them for the same basic reason I would and have had nothing but problems. This spanning the last three years. So where does one go from here?

There's got to be some desktop experts here on the forum. Desktop gurus' I'm all ears.....

Cheers...

For my mother, who prefers to work at a desk, I got a Lenovo M57 usff (ultra-small form factor) unit -- it's essentially laptop-style components inside a very small case, which can hide behind a 17" LCD monitor. It's ideal for her restricted space.

Otherwise ... I have built (or had custom-built) many servers over the years. Building your own allows you to pick specific CPUs, mobos, heat sinks, hard disks, controllers, video cards and so on, to optimize the system for your specific needs rather than what the manufacturer thinks you need.

archer6 wrote:I'm truly afraid of Dell's as I know so many skilled ThinkPad computer users that bought them for the same basic reason I would and have had nothing but problems.

That's most likely because those who didn't have any problems with their Dell desktops didn't say anything, so you rarely hear from them, similar to this forum where we rarely see people start a thread just to praise their Thinkpads. You wouldn't look at this forum and say "I am truly afraid of Thinkpads as I know so many people who have had nothing but problems with them", would you?

archer6 wrote:There's got to be some desktop experts here on the forum. Desktop gurus' I'm all ears.....

I have used quite a few Dell desktops and have found all of them 100% reliable. Both my department in grad school and my current department use almost exclusively Dell desktops and everyone is happy. The only other brand I have lots of experience with is Gateway, and virtually each and every machine has had issues.

UPDATE: Just found this survey by PC Mag. Click on "See the survey results" for the table.

@ tomh009 and pianowizard

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, experiences and general feedback. The link to the service scores was also helpful. The information you two supplied has me thinking that as much as I would enjoy building one, I must restrain myself from taking on another project, and simply buy a desktop that is the best compromise of choices.

Cheers...

Not that I ever owned a DELL desktop (they don't sell them here), but there seem to be some pretty consistent complaints in the past regarding one thing: DELL using proprietary components (for example, power supply connectors), making it impossible for you to upgrade to a power supply of your choice, or replace a faulty one with a standard PSU. Also, in the past, in the AGP era, they were notorious in using boards with integrated graphics and no AGP slots.

What I'm saying is when buying a DELL (and probably any other preconfigured desktop), one needs to carefully read and understand all the specs (including things which may be unwritten), if one wants to maintain upgradability.

dr_st wrote:True, a brand new netbook and an older, used business class ultralight (like Thinkpad X), will probably cost roughly the same and provide roughly the same performance. The X might be more durable, but the accumulated wear and tear will offset that.

And yes, you can even get some good deals for a used latest generation X model, which will be much more powerful, at a price comparable to a new netbook. But you can get a used netbook for much less then. And some people just don't feel comfortable buying used hardware.

Make that most people. Yes, an X31 is equivalent or better (if larger). But you can walk into a Best Buy and walk out with a netbook. If you have problems, you walk back into the Best Buy. That's a level of comfort for non-technical people that even the best online site or community will never be able to reach.

Then there's the whole "knowing about it" issue as mentioned by others.

On the other topic, I'm looking to build a desktop pretty soon . The level of customisation and flexibility possible blows notebooks out of the water. In particular, I want to use mine in a semi-mainframe (homeframe?) fashion and consequently keep it on 24/7; I'm pretty picky and I sleep in the same room, so the T60p is right out of consideration and even the X21 is pretty loud. I will get the desktop quieter than that...

hausman wrote:Lenovo doesn't really market their desktops to the retail market, certainly not like Dell and HP do.

dr_st wrote:Indeed. Same thing as with the Lenovo monitors

For the longest time, Dell desktops and monitors were also purchasable only through dell.com, but nonetheless they managed to become the most popular brand in the States (and perhaps some other parts of the world as well). Retail stores started selling Dells only like 2 or 3 years ago. I'm sure their low prices contributed heavily to their popularity, but I am convinced that their high quality is also an important factor.

pianowizard wrote:For the longest time, Dell desktops and monitors were also purchasable only through dell.com, but nonetheless they managed to become the most popular brand in the States (and perhaps some other parts of the world as well). Retail stores started selling Dells only like 2 or 3 years ago.

Even when dell.com was their only sales channel Dell marketed heavily to consumers, e.g. the "Dude, you're getting a Dell" TV and print ads. When was the last time you saw a Lenovo ad targeted to consumers?

I'm sure their low prices contributed heavily to their popularity, but I am convinced that their high quality is also an important factor.

No argument there. I've managed dozens of Dell desktops over the years. Very few ever gave us problems. Although I'm a ThinkPad fanatic, my desktop of choice is Dell.

I have just sold my Asus Eee 701 to buy this X60.

I do not believe you can make a fair comparison with an X series and an Eee PC they are not the same animal, sure they have some things in common, size & convenience but that is where the similarity ends.

I bought the Eee PC to see what a sub £200 laptop was like but it was just too small to be usable when I needed to do anything more than check email or write a quick note. Netbooks have a place but NOT if you want to do more than check email on my X60 I can do everything and it fits in my day bag and gives me 8 hours sue a day THATS true portability!

This second hand X60 of mine cost £300 and out performs any of my other kit its is better built than all my other kit and it was cheaper than any of my other kit.

I had NEVER even thought of an IBM before a mate said look at the Xseries now I cant see me changing for a very long time. They seem like a well kept secret in the UK!

I am by no means a desktop guru, but I think given my experience building several desktops over the past decade, I can give a couple cents' worth of opinion.

First, you need to do your research. Just like how you spent days reading Thinkpads.com forum before buying your latest Thinkpad, you also need to read reviews and guides on various websites regarding desktops. Unlike laptops, you have total freedom to what you can build. So it is important to make informed decisions. Several reputable sites have system guides that recommend the best components for a certain budget. I personally find the guide at TechReport very useful and referenced it for my latest desktop (circa June 08).

Now, ask yourself, what would you do with the system. With a desktop system, components are easily upgradable but it cost time and money, especially when you need to install drivers or reinstall the OS. For busy working-class people, the time is where it hurts. I rather err slightly on the powerful side and not have to upgrade components after discovering that my favorite programs or games don't run smoothly.

Next, work out a budget. It is good to start with a reasonable price point - one that would neither make you frown nor make you laugh uncontrollably - or you will have no idea what to look at. Aim to have the system for within 20% of budget.

Finally, based on your favorite system guide, modify the components to meet your needs. After that, go to your favorite online retailer and order away! (Of course, you have to assemble the system and install the software. But that's another story.)

For your reference, my budget of $700 (excluding monitor) would get a system slightly better than an econobox but less than a mid-range system. However, the system is meant mainly for entertainment and gaming. So I went for less processing power (Core 2 Duo E7200 2.53GHz CPU, P43 chipset) but more graphics capability (Radeon HD4850 512MB graphics).


Back to the netbook topic... I am so happy with my X61, I am definitely not going to give it up for a netbook. I don't mind upgrading to a SSD, though. The 7K200 runs pretty hot.

After all the initial hype when Netbooks first came out, I've been rather dismissive of these things being true laptop replacements... until now.

Reason being, the initial ones that came out, weren't exactly as slim as I hoped, and the SSD capacities were a joke.

While I love using my two X-series laptops, one area of weakness for both is HD video playback. My x41 tops out playing 720p encoded in DivX5, while my x60T can do H.264 @ 720p but not up to 1080p.(thanx to the weak integrated graphic cards)

But with the recent news of the Lenovo S12 coming out, I think I might really consider making the jump. From the pictures released, it looks very slim. With Nvidia Ion platform's full hardware support for H.264 @ 1080p, I think the S12 will be perfect for a multimedia whore like myself.

I'm sure some of you will be asking why the hell would I want to play HD on a tiny screen that's 12" or less. Well, all the movie I download are in HD, and I'm not gonna go through the trouble of re-encoding the video to a lower resolution every time I wanna bring one on the go with me.

rhema83 wrote:I am by no means a desktop guru, but I think given my experience building several desktops over the past decade, I can give a couple cents' worth of opinion.

Thanks for some excellent ideas on building a desktop...

Cheers...

ChugokuOtaku wrote:After all the initial hype when Netbooks first came out, I've been rather dismissive of these things being true laptop replacements... until now.

It's easy to do, (being dismissive) as I did too, then I thought about it and decided to be open minded and give one a try. Now I'm hooked. While I would not suggest one for other forum members as their only laptop, as we here are all too spoiled with the great functionality of virtually all ThinkPads. However if one keeps in mind the true purpose of a Netbook then they can be quite worthwhile and fun.

As far as the S12 ... I think it would be a great machine for the purposes you cited. I know that I can't wait to get my hands on one...

Cheers...