Absurdly poor experience with IBM UK

[ThinkRob]

To make a long story short:

- I have an IWS-eligible ThinkPad
- I have a 4 year warranty with ADP and on-site service
- my machine has developed two small cracks in the palmrest assembly

Now given the above, you'd think that getting it fixed would be as simple as setting up a service appointment and waiting for a tech. to come out, right?

Not even close.

I was recently told the following:

1) The crack was due to the application of pressure by the user, and is thus not covered under the standard warranty.

2) The crack was user-induced damage, and thus will be billable unless repaired under ADP.

3) ADP will require depot service. On-site service is not an option.

4) ADP is only possible in the US.

Now points 1 and 2 are absurd. The area in question is designed to rest directly under the user's palm. If the design cannot withstand the pressure of a palm resting on the... uh... *palmrest*, then it (not the user) is at fault.

Points 3 and 4 came as a shock to me. I was under the impression that accidental damage repairs could be completed on-site if one had the on-site warranty -- and I think that's a perfectly reasonable interpretation, given how it's marketed on their site. Heck, that's why I purchased ADP in the first place. I couldn't find anything to contradict this in their printed literature. I also didn't find anything indicating that ADP was only active in the country of purchase. I was told that the warranty agreement stated this, but when I asked where the applicable passage was I was told that it was an internal document. Awesome.

I can't even get them to send me the part to replace it myself, as they claim that doing so will void my warranty (also false, at least not according to the published information that I could find.)

Picture of the larger of the two cracks: http://imgur.com/xer8C.jpg

Needless to say, I'm *[censored]* at Lenovo right now.

This also will be the last time I purchase any sort of extended warranty on a ThinkPad. It's just easier to replace the parts myself. (For the record, the part in question can be replaced for a total of $35 including shipping plus the 5 minutes needed to remove the 9 or so screws and swap the assembly.)

[Vempele]

I can't even get them to send me the part to replace it myself, as they claim that doing so will void my warranty (also false, at least not according to the published information that I could find.)

If it's an X60 Tablet, they're right. It's a CRU in the other models.

[ThinkRob]

If it's an X60 Tablet, they're right. It's a CRU in the other models.

It's an X61s.

[dr_st]

Happens.

Call again, hopefully talk to a different person, say that your palmrest broke, and that you haven't caused it to break. Ask that they ship you the CRU for replacement. Be persistent on both accounts: 1) you did not damage the palmrest, 2) it is a CRU and you are entitled to receive a replacement shipped, regardless of whether you have depot service, onsite service or what not.

[bill bolton]

I was under the impression that accidental damage repairs could be completed on-site if one had the on-site warranty....

Whatever the merits of your claim, the delivery of warranty service on Thinkpads by Lenovo (and IBM before them) has never been the same everywhere in the world.

It varies somewhat depending on local conditions, local regulations, local capability and often depends on local "cultural" practices related to how things get fixed.

While IWS is good for getting a ThinkPad fixed under warranty pretty much anywhere, it may not get fixed in the exact manner it would happen in the country your purchased the warranty in.

Cheers,

Bill B.

[Batavian]

One thing you have to be careful about is picking up your X61 by either corner. The left hand corner is very weak because of the space for the PCMCIA card. The right hand side is a little stronger but can crack too as there is some space underneath it as well.

Left hand corner - http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a241/ ... esize1.jpg

Right hand corner - http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a241/ ... esize2.jpg

[ThinkRob]

While IWS is good for getting a ThinkPad fixed under warranty pretty much anywhere, it may not get fixed in the exact manner it would happen in the country your purchased the warranty in.

That's a fair point, although it's not really explained in the warranty agreement. That's at least understandable though, even if it wasn't made clear.

The bit I'm really steamed about was being told that ADP didn't apply at all outside of the US. That, and being told by two different reps that replacing the part would immediately void my warranty.

One thing you have to be careful about is picking up your X61 by either corner. The left hand corner is very weak because of the space for the PCMCIA card. The right hand side is a little stronger but can crack too as there is some space underneath it as well.

Indeed. I've never picked up my laptop by the corner for just that reason. I only pick it up with two hands, one on each side.

Call again, hopefully talk to a different person, say that your palmrest broke, and that you haven't caused it to break. Ask that they ship you the CRU for replacement. Be persistent on both accounts: 1) you did not damage the palmrest, 2) it is a CRU and you are entitled to receive a replacement shipped, regardless of whether you have depot service, onsite service or what not.

I'll do that.

I just received an e-mail from IBM:

Please note that we have investigate the fault that you have reported on 25/01/2010 over the email regarding the base cover on your Thinkpad X series. We have came to the conclusion by investigating the pictures that the crack has been developed because of the pressure applied on that side of the laptop.
The only way we can have this fixed for you is if you agree with the billable process. If you still want to have this fixed free of charges please open a hardware ticket in the country that you have registered the Thinkpad Protection
Service for your laptop.

I replied (somewhat heatedly) that it was somewhat offensive to be continually told that I damaged it, especially considering the excellent condition of the rest of the laptop, and that if that area cannot withstand the pressure of my palm resting on it as I type then it is a faulty design.

Also, I'm not sure what they mean by "the country that you have registered the Thinkpad Protection Service for your laptop." I never explicitly "registered" the service anywhere. I assume that they mean in the country that I purchased ADP.

I'm debating whether or not to reference the existing case when I call them back and request a part to be sent. I'm afraid that doing so would result in the rep looking at the case, saying "Nope. Your fault. Sorry." and leaving me without any recourse.

Lastly, am I completely off-base on ADP + onsite? I was relatively sure that accidental damage would also be covered on-site (in the US at least) if one had an on-site service agreement with ThinkPlus ADP. Is that not the case?

[Batavian]

Rob...no offense but I think you're confusing warranty with insurance. Accidental damage would be an insurance issue, not a warranty issue.

I do see your point about feeling the palm rest is defective. And I believe that the left palm rest is weak due to the fact there is a 1/4" of empty space under it. But proving that it is a defect in design will be a hard case. If I can play devil's advocate for a moment, how do they know you didn't pick up the laptop from its corners?

If it helps, use the pictures I submitted on my X61 to help resolve your issue. If anything, it will show them that you are not the only one with a cracked case.

Good luck.

[ThinkRob]

Rob...no offense but I think you're confusing warranty with insurance. Accidental damage would be an insurance issue, not a warranty issue.

Indeed. It certainly appears that way -- but I was under the impression that ThinkPlus merely acted as an extension of the warranty service to cover user-induced damage, and thus that repairs would be completed as though they were warranty service (i.e. on-site.) And frankly, after reading back over the promotional material for said service on Lenovo's site, I still can't help but come away with the impression that it's pitched as such. Still, caveat emptor, I suppose.

I do see your point about feeling the palm rest is defective. And I believe that the left palm rest is weak due to the fact there is a 1/4" of empty space under it. But proving that it is a defect in design will be a hard case. If I can play devil's advocate for a moment, how do they know you didn't pick up the laptop from its corners?

Fair enough. But even if that were the case, is that to say that they consider a particular, common form of lifting the laptop to be abuse?!

If it helps, use the pictures I submitted on my X61 to help resolve your issue. If anything, it will show them that you are not the only one with a cracked case.

Thanks. I may have to do that. For now I'm waiting to hear back from Lenovo. Failing that, I'm going to see if I can sweet-talk a rep into giving me a replacement FRU under ADP. Failing that, I'll wait until I return to the US and see about getting a replacement part there. And failing that, I'll say "screw it", accept that my warranty is worthless, and do a whole bunch of mods that I've been contemplating (WWAN, additional antennae, etc.)

Sigh.

[dr_st]

I'm debating whether or not to reference the existing case when I call them back and request a part to be sent. I'm afraid that doing so would result in the rep looking at the case, saying "Nope. Your fault. Sorry." and leaving me without any recourse.

Obviously not. Why give them easy ways out? With some luck, the phone department and the email department are different and they wouldn't care to investigate.

Fair enough. But even if that were the case, is that to say that they consider a particular, common form of lifting the laptop to be abuse?!

Well, no. And in fact I find it highly unlikely that it can actually be caused by lifting it by the corner (given the experience I have with my wife's X61). I have certainly lifted the X61 as well as larger and heavier laptops by the corner, and it never felt like I am close to cracking something.

The point is that they cannot know whether the crack was caused by abuse or not. I can certainly think of a few ways in which it can be caused by abuse, and any type of physical damage immediately causes one to wonder.

If it was any company other than Lenovo, I would have told you that you are most likely stuck out of luck. But during my experience with the Lenovo/IBM service I had:

* Twice brought them a keyboard with a broken key (one of the little plastic pieces holding it down was physically broken, so the key wouldn't stay on). Both times it was entirely my fault (applied too much pressure at wrong angle). Both times key was replaced on the spot, no questions asked. This was with my T42, about 3 years ago, before I knew about anything called CRU.
* Brought the onsite service guy (at the company I work in) a T60 with a broken palmrest corner. The little piece simply broke off. I really wasn't doing anything abnormal to it when it happened, but it looked exactly as it might look if the machine was dropped on its corner. The guy looked at the damage, said "come back in 20 minutes", and when I did - a new palmrest, replaced under warranty, without the company having to file for user-inflicted damage.
* Complained about left hinge on a T60 being loose. It was suggested to me on these forums that it might be due to the motherboard cage being cracked (which normally I've been told would be considered user-inflicted damage). I never checked if that really was the case, but the laptop was returned to me after the cage had been replaced (and the looseness gone), again no questions asked.
* A few times had an LCD replaced due to pressure marks (albeit the soft kind which is caused by normal use), and no one had ever tried to claim user-inflicted damage.

This is just my list of repairs. All of them have been done by IBM Israel, who are the major service lab of IBM/Lenovo products in Israel. Of course, as was suggested here, service may vary. But there are lists just as long as mine by happy customers on these forums who have replaced broken parts in cases where it wasn't clear if the damage may be user-inflicted, also in the US, and not just.

At the same time, I have had incidents in the past (both with sales and with technical service) where the first rep I talked to (typically on the phone) was clueless and gave me incorrect information, insisting that I am doing something wrong or that he simply cannot help me for whatever reason. Sometimes I had to go to the second or third rep to get the service I expected. A combination of being polite, firm and knowledgeable is the key to success most of the time.

Which is why I have some hope that your experience may turn different if you just speak to someone else.

[ThinkRob]

Lenovo followed up.

They claimed that the photos showed clear evidence of external force, thus the repair would not be covered. Put simply, that's bunk. There is no such evidence because it's simply not true. I've never dropped the machine, never dropped anything on it -- heck, I don't even pick it up without using two hands. I carry it in a padded case whenever I transport it too. The *only* "external force" applied to that area is the force of my palm resting against it when I type.

Oh, and to top it off, their response was highly unprofessional: not only was it was rife with grammatical errors, but they didn't even manage to spell my name correctly.

I've responded back, basically stating that I reject their claim, and that no such abuse occurred. I explained that I take good care of the machine and mentioned that I knew of at least one other machine with the exact same issue. I also stated that I thought that repair should not be billable since the machine was covered by ADP (figured it was worth a shot.) I closed with:

Given that the part in question (FRU #42W3769) is a customer-replaceable
unit, I would be happy to do the replacement myself. I am unclear as to
why Lenovo cannot simply send me the part in question so as to allow me
to replace the fractured piece. I would certainly consider this
acceptable, given that it would allow me to restore my machine to full
working order with a minimum of downtime.

At this point I don't really care about the principle of the thing -- I just want to get the damage repaired, and I don't want to have to pay the $25.80 (including shipping) that a replacement part would cost. Given that my warranty upgrade cost over $300, replacement of a $25 part is the least I can hope for...

[InitialCondition]

Sorry to hear about your warranty experience. The warranty on my X61s is about to expire, and I was pondering on extending warranty. As my T30 had some small cracks, it is likely that X61s would get some cracks in coming years as well. If it has to be argued (yet, unsuccessfully) for a repair, I will be better off not buying additional warranties.

[ThinkRob]

If it has to be argued (yet, unsuccessfully) for a repair, I will be better off not buying additional warranties.

Personally, I wouldn't get a warranty to protect against case cracks -- and that's not because I've been having a rough time getting warranty service. I'd feel much the same even if I hadn't had the experience I did; case plastics are dirt cheap via eBay, and the part that's likely to crack (keyboard bezel) is dead simple to replace. Ten screws (IIRC -- it could be a couple more/less) and ten minutes is all you need to restore it to pristine condition.

Heck, even replacing the lid cover (the hardest part to replace IMO) is pretty straightforward if you're patient and are follow the steps in the HMM.

[xyz]

Just had a bad experience too with ibm uk.

Had a screen replaced, now when you close the lid the sensor is not activated, the digitiser is not working, the leds are very dim..

its quite absurd...

But I have always found thier on site support and the tech people that show up to do the work very competent.