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Thinkpad X300/X301 modding (split off T700 discussion)

X200/X201/X220 (including equivalent tablet models) and X300/X301 Series
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mikemex
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Thinkpad X300/X301 modding (split off T700 discussion)

#1 Post by mikemex » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:41 pm

I'm willing to pay big bucks for an upgraded X301 motherboard. Intel just released a "Pentium Silver N6005" that seems to fit the bill perfectly. 4 cores @ 10W TDP.

Seems less expensive / easier than your T700... I mean, I don't think intel cares that much for the low end product lines. They are probably much more flexible with giving away specifications and such.
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Re: Thinkpad T700 i7-10710 private project

#2 Post by L29Ah » Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:44 pm

mikemex wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:41 pm
I'm willing to pay big bucks for an upgraded X301 motherboard. Intel just released a "Pentium Silver N6005" that seems to fit the bill perfectly. 4 cores @ 10W TDP.

Seems less expensive / easier than your T700... I mean, I don't think intel cares that much for the low end product lines. They are probably much more flexible with giving away specifications and such.
Intel's TDP figures are meaningless. Their laptop chips are unlikely to go lower than 1W but easily over 30 if you desire so.

Also, Intel's low end products are just high end products that are locked down to lower spec due to insufficient quality or marketing considerations, so it won't influence its decisiveness re documentation.
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Re: Thinkpad T700 i7-10710 private project

#3 Post by H-Atkinson » Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:37 am

mikemex wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:41 pm
I'm willing to pay big bucks for an upgraded X301 motherboard. Intel just released a "Pentium Silver N6005" that seems to fit the bill perfectly. 4 cores @ 10W TDP.

Seems less expensive / easier than your T700... I mean, I don't think intel cares that much for the low end product lines. They are probably much more flexible with giving away specifications and such.
The hard part about these things isn't the chip, its building a whole motherboard around the chip. Thats the expensive part. For example, in T700, the chip is probably ~1/4 of the total board cost.

Also, why X301? The screens offered on it are really nothing special (no HVA/IPS options). The X60/1 seem to be better X-series options given they're 4:3 and offer FlexView panels.
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Re: Thinkpad T700 i7-10710 private project

#4 Post by mikemex » Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:05 am

H-Atkinson wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:37 am
mikemex wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:41 pm
I'm willing to pay big bucks for an upgraded X301 motherboard. Intel just released a "Pentium Silver N6005" that seems to fit the bill perfectly. 4 cores @ 10W TDP.

Seems less expensive / easier than your T700... I mean, I don't think intel cares that much for the low end product lines. They are probably much more flexible with giving away specifications and such.
The hard part about these things isn't the chip, its building a whole motherboard around the chip. Thats the expensive part. For example, in T700, the chip is probably ~1/4 of the total board cost.

Also, why X301? The screens offered on it are really nothing special (no HVA/IPS options). The X60/1 seem to be better X-series options given they're 4:3 and offer FlexView panels.
Why hard? Companies as big as Lenovo surely doesn't welcome competition but I'm sure a small ODM would be more than happy to sell you the schematics of an existing design for modification and even physically build such motherboard later. It doesn't conflict with their existing business and provides extra income. See this:

https://www.globalsources.com/Desktop-c ... 57258p.htm

As for why the X301:

* Compared to the X61, the X301 provides a full size keyboard and touchpad. The touchpad is not important to me, but it may be important to other people.
* Compared to the X61, the X301 almost certainly has enough space to fit a modern screen such as the one in the X1 Nano (13.5 3:2).
* Compared to the X61, the X301 is all modern. The chassis doesn't have cutouts for useless stuff such as PCMCIA, Modem or FireWire but has DisplayPort and an integrated WebCam. This means you don't have to do ugly hacks.
* Compared to the X61, the X301 offers much more chassis flexibility. The hard drive can be relocated below; I already measured and there is enough space in there to fit two DIMM slots and a M.2 2280 slot (they would be super easy to access via a dedicated door). Freed, the 1.8 bay space could be used for something else. There is enough space to fit a full size SDXC reader, some extra USB-C / Thunderbolt port and a secondary M.2 2242 slot, behind. All wireless modules can be relocated on top, to the WWAN module space, since M.2 is more physically compact than Mini PCIe.
* Compared to the X61, the X301 can integrate two batteries and none of them sticks out. Or the optical drive space could be used to fit a 7mm 2.5" spinning SATA drive. The bay would probably be freed anyway, since there were never 7mm SATA optical drives and trying to re-fit the IDE one would imply repeating Lenovo's mistake.

* Compared to the T61, the X301 is better built. Plastic over a magnesium roll-cage is nice, but a magnesium chassis is better (think in terms of T420 vs T420s).
* Compared to the T61, the X301 is **much** lighter and thinner and doesn't lose anything important at this point (such as the optical drive). It's not a great idea, but the optical drive can be kept.
* Compared to the T61, the X301 is all modern. The chassis doesn't have cutouts for useless stuff such as Modem or FireWire but has DisplayPort. This means you don't have to do ugly hacks.
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Re: Thinkpad T700 i7-10710 private project

#5 Post by H-Atkinson » Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:16 pm

mikemex wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:05 am
H-Atkinson wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:37 am


The hard part about these things isn't the chip, its building a whole motherboard around the chip. Thats the expensive part. For example, in T700, the chip is probably ~1/4 of the total board cost.

Also, why X301? The screens offered on it are really nothing special (no HVA/IPS options). The X60/1 seem to be better X-series options given they're 4:3 and offer FlexView panels.
Why hard? Companies as big as Lenovo surely doesn't welcome competition but I'm sure a small ODM would be more than happy to sell you the schematics of an existing design for modification and even physically build such motherboard later. It doesn't conflict with their existing business and provides extra income. See this:

https://www.globalsources.com/Desktop-c ... 57258p.htm

As for why the X301:

* Compared to the X61, the X301 provides a full size keyboard and touchpad. The touchpad is not important to me, but it may be important to other people.
* Compared to the X61, the X301 almost certainly has enough space to fit a modern screen such as the one in the X1 Nano (13.5 3:2).
* Compared to the X61, the X301 is all modern. The chassis doesn't have cutouts for useless stuff such as PCMCIA, Modem or FireWire but has DisplayPort and an integrated WebCam. This means you don't have to do ugly hacks.
* Compared to the X61, the X301 offers much more chassis flexibility. The hard drive can be relocated below; I already measured and there is enough space in there to fit two DIMM slots and a M.2 2280 slot (they would be super easy to access via a dedicated door). Freed, the 1.8 bay space could be used for something else. There is enough space to fit a full size SDXC reader, some extra USB-C / Thunderbolt port and a secondary M.2 2242 slot, behind. All wireless modules can be relocated on top, to the WWAN module space, since M.2 is more physically compact than Mini PCIe.
* Compared to the X61, the X301 can integrate two batteries and none of them sticks out. Or the optical drive space could be used to fit a 7mm 2.5" spinning SATA drive. The bay would probably be freed anyway, since there were never 7mm SATA optical drives and trying to re-fit the IDE one would imply repeating Lenovo's mistake.

* Compared to the T61, the X301 is better built. Plastic over a magnesium roll-cage is nice, but a magnesium chassis is better (think in terms of T420 vs T420s).
* Compared to the T61, the X301 is **much** lighter and thinner and doesn't lose anything important at this point (such as the optical drive). It's not a great idea, but the optical drive can be kept.
* Compared to the T61, the X301 is all modern. The chassis doesn't have cutouts for useless stuff such as Modem or FireWire but has DisplayPort. This means you don't have to do ugly hacks.
The X61's keyboard is a fine keyboard, and personally I wouldn't miss the touchpad. I doubt any 4:3 nuts here would either. As for displays, the X1 Nano uses a 16:10 panel, not 3:2. The X61 also has hugely smaller bezels. The X300/1 is almost as big as a 14" T60/1 footprint wise, and that machine offers a far superior keyboard, better build quality, more common batteries, etc. As for cutouts, the PCMCIA slots are getting re-used for Thunderbolt headers on the T700, which is a solution I personally quite like. As for chassis flexibility, there is really nothing the X300/1 offers that any other Thinkpad of this era does not. Same goes for the 1.8" bay. Any other TP would have a 2.5" bay to use for the same purpose. The other issue with the X300/1 would be the issue with the drive bay. There is 1 option for anything that fits in there that isn't a battery, and that's a slim DVD drive. Very dubiously useful in 2021.

As for build quality, I've actually found the X301 *worse* than the *60 machines. The plastics are far more brittle, they're thinner, and the magnesium cage in it offers no real advantages over that of the T60/1. My 14" T60p was dropped down a flight of stairs and survived with no cracks. Sure, it may be lighter, but I'd much rather have some extra weight for a better screen, slimmer bezels, more useful aspect ration, and better batteries. As for I/O cutouts, as I said earlier, its largely irrelevant. The T700 people are putting whatever new I/O is needed inside the PCMCIA slots, using a 3d printed I/O shield, and calling it a day. I'm more than happy with that solution. Hardly an "ugly hack." It was done before on T70 and looks just fine on those.
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Re: Thinkpad T700 i7-10710 private project

#6 Post by dr_st » Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:46 pm

Interesting discussion here.
H-Atkinson wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:16 pm
The X61's keyboard is a fine keyboard
The feel is fine, but on all 4:3 12" X-series some of the keys are smaller, which also makes the whole layout a bit offset. I always get mixed up when going between an X32/X61 and another Thinkpads / desktop keyboards.
H-Atkinson wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:16 pm
The X300/1 is almost as big as a 14" T60/1 footprint wise, and that machine offers a far superior keyboard
In what way do you find the T6x keyboard superior to X30x keyboard?

When it comes to stock displays - the X300/X301 are by far the worst of any Thinkpads. However, if the chassis can accommodate a modern display, such as the one from X1 Nano - it gives them an edge over the 4:3 X6x/T6x models.
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Re: Thinkpad T700 i7-10710 private project

#7 Post by mikemex » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:19 am

I've had all machines we're talking about and, in my opinion, the X301 is the best (classic) Thinkpad ever. Sure, other models may beat it in specific ways, but none offers the balance of features the X301 has. Had Lenovo released it with a Sandy Bridge ULV processor instead of Core 2 Duo, and a better screen (and perhaps, as @dt_st pointed out, a docking port), the discussions around here would be MUCH different.
H-Atkinson wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:16 pm
The X61's keyboard is a fine keyboard
X301's not the best keyboard in the series, but like @dt_st said,the X6x is one of the worse with its reduced size (don't people talk about the buttlerfly keyboard all the time? It suddenly stopped being important to have a normal format?).

It can't be any other way with small laptops and 4:3 screens. You can be as nostalgic as you want, but it was a big jump in terms of ergonomics when they replaced the X6x series with the X2xx series. I know because I had a X60 for a short while and sold it because of the keyboard (and low resolution of the screen). To get an X200 and later the X220 I still own.

Heck, it was a big jump on everything. Battery capacity, for example.

Around the same time of the X60 I bought an X300, and shortly after I replaced it with the X301 my sister still uses. The only reason I sold it to her is that, at the time, I didn't have a desktop computer and it felt too limited to be my only computer. SU9400 and 64GB was too basic, even then. I know the screen is awful, but it really never bothered me much. On bad TN displays I just lower the gamma settings to 0.8 or 0.7 and everything looks much better. I think those panels are all over exposed.
H-Atkinson wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:16 pm
As for displays, the X1 Nano uses a 16:10 panel, not 3:2.
Good catch, I think I was confusing it with the X1 Yoga Titanium. Nevertheless, the display exists, used on the X1 Nano or not:

https://es.aliexpress.com/i/1005002337960718.html
H-Atkinson wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:16 pm
The X61 also has hugely smaller bezels.
Keep in mind that the X6x series uses a different kind of antenna setup compared to newer models, with reduced wireless reception. Space is needed for the new system (but perhaps not that much).

Besides, the 13.5" 3:2 panel would certainly use the lid space better. It's sightly wider (about 1mm) and considerably taller (11mm) than the stock 13.3" 16:10. Not sure if there is enough space to fit something wider, but there is definitely enough for something taller, making the bezels effectively thinner.
H-Atkinson wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:16 pm
The X300/1 is almost as big as a 14" T60/1 footprint wise
Are you kidding me? The X30x series was released as a response to the MacBook Air. And, as I said, the X301 can equip two batteries and none of them sticks out. Only the 4 cell battery fits inside the chassis in the X6x; the 8 cell sticks out. Same for the T6x.
H-Atkinson wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:16 pm
better build quality
Again, you can be as nostalgic as you want, but the X301 build quality is objectively better. In the X61, only the bottom half is made of magnesium while both the lower and upper (this is, the whole chassis) is made of magnesium in the X301. I think the hinges are better than pretty much any other model out there, old or new. Mine are over 10 years old and still tight as new.
H-Atkinson wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:16 pm
more common batteries
Batteries for older models are always a problem. And the older they are, the harder it is to get them.
H-Atkinson wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:16 pm
the PCMCIA slots are getting re-used for Thunderbolt headers on the T700
Yup. But you didn't answer me when it comes to Modem and Firewire windows because there is nothing you can say about it. I get that you like the x6x series, but I don't have the same emotional attachment as you... The T6x and X6x are older designs, meant for a different usage that is not entirely compatible with how we use computers today.

Besides, I'm suggesting a mod for the X301 in addition to the T700, not instead of it. I liked the proposal when I first saw it and still do. I'm just a little skeptic of the logic of using the T6x at this point (I don't think there are that many floating around anymore, for example).
H-Atkinson wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:16 pm
As for chassis flexibility, there is really nothing the X300/1 offers that any other Thinkpad of this era does not.
You're mistaken. As far as I know, the X301 is the only Thinkpad ever to support 6 wireless antennas (3 for WIFI, 1 for WUSB and 2 for WWAN). I still don't lose hope that they will release a 3x3 card in the future and it'll beat any other laptop with a 2x2 setup, specially when it comes to signal quality. And you never know if they'll open up a new band for public usage, making that 6th antenna useful...

Besides, as far as I know, none of the previous Thinkpads used Li-Polymer (flat) batteries, which is a requirement to get a thinner and compact chassis.
H-Atkinson wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:16 pm
Same goes for the 1.8" bay. Any other TP would have a 2.5" bay to use for the same purpose.
There were no (practical) SSDs when the T6x/X6x series was launched and the design reflects it. The X301 was designed with SSD in mind from scratch. That's why I claim it's all modern, unlike the previous incarnations.
H-Atkinson wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:16 pm
The other issue with the X300/1 would be the issue with the drive bay. There is 1 option for anything that fits in there that isn't a battery, and that's a slim DVD drive. Very dubiously useful in 2021.
Again, you're mistaken. There was a secondary hard drive module (albeit, third party) and it sold well until people began discovering the "limitations" of using the SATA-PATA bridge Lenovo installed in it in order to make use of the PATA optical drive (or the limitations of the SU9400 / 64GB combo as a main machine...). Some bean counter at Lenovo's office must have decided to save a few pennies by not requesting Panasonic to release a SATA version of the UJ-844, causing us all trouble...

It likely isn't going to happen, but I'd love to see an holographic drive with TBs of space one day...
H-Atkinson wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:16 pm
As for build quality, I've actually found the X301 *worse* than the *60 machines. The plastics are far more brittle, they're thinner, and the magnesium cage in it offers no real advantages over that of the T60/1. My 14" T60p was dropped down a flight of stairs and survived with no cracks.
Maybe but it's still subjective. This is typical forum talk. For everyone who praises a design, there is another hating it. There is no doubt that the build quality on the X6x is high; higher than X301, it's hard to say.

One thing is certain, though: it's unfair to compare a machine with an optical drive with one without. Any opening in the chassis implies an structural challenge and, in that sense, I think the X301 is objectively better. The same goes for comparing it with a quite thicker machine such as the T6x.

Like I said in the opening, I'm not claiming the X301 is better in every aspect, just a better balance. It's got pretty much every feature we love in a classic Thinkpad (down to the rubberized paint Lenovo later removed, physical latches with clamshell borders, indicator lights, etc.).

I'm pretty sure battery technology has improved quite a bit since Lenovo released the X301. Rather than 44Wh, it may now hold 50Wh, 55Wh, who knows... If making new batteries, I'd love to see a charge gauge button to check it with the machine off. I found it very useful on my old Dells.
H-Atkinson wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 2:16 pm
The T700 people are putting whatever new I/O is needed inside the PCMCIA slots, using a 3d printed I/O shield, and calling it a day. I'm more than happy with that solution. Hardly an "ugly hack." It was done before on T70 and looks just fine on those.
Not sure why are we discussing this. I basically suggested the same regarding the X301 and the 1.8" bay space. It's the other ports (Modem, FireWire, etc.) what you need to cancel, making the "ugly hack'. It just looks like any other product released to the market with cancelled features. It screams "cheap".

The X301 doesn't have any ports that are not useful today.
X301: SU9600 | 8GB | 1TB | WXGA+
X1C5: 7600U | 16GB | 1TB | FHD
X1C9: 1145G7 | 16GB | 1TB | WUXGA | WWAN
X1Y8: 1365U | 32GB | 1TB | WUXGA
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Re: Thinkpad T700 i7-10710 private project

#8 Post by RealBlackStuff » Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:50 am

Maybe OT, but did anybody with an X300/X301 ever try an Ultrabay SATA-mod similar to the T43/p drivebay?
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Re: Thinkpad T700 i7-10710 private project

#9 Post by TPFanatic » Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:34 am

I've never owned or handled an X300 or X301, but I'd suggest the T420s or T430s as more modern substitutes. The 2nd and 3rd gen chipsets are still very fast, they can use 16GB RAM, and especially with the IPS mods which by now support low power LCDs, they combine classic ThinkPad goodness with modern tech. They also have Expesscard 34, docking ports, and Ultrabays for those who want them. Sadly battery life is not competitive with newer machines, and regular power IPS screens take a significant toll on it in my experience.

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Re: Thinkpad T700 i7-10710 private project

#10 Post by dr_st » Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:31 am

mikemex wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:19 am
in my opinion, the X301 is the best (classic) Thinkpad ever. Sure, other models may beat it in specific ways, but none offers the balance of features the X301 has
To me just the lack of docking port is a deal-breaker. On modern laptops it isn't, because of Thunderbolt, but back then it made using the laptop in a desk setup significantly more clumsy. However, not everyone cares about this work flow. Certainly, if we talk about a modern board in a X30x shell, then Thunderbolt can be implemented to solve the problem. None of the custom projects have the proprietary Lenovo docking ports anyway.
mikemex wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:19 am
the X301 can equip two batteries and none of them sticks out. Only the 4 cell battery fits inside the chassis in the X6x; the 8 cell sticks out. Same for the T6x
Well, a proper T6x (not 14" wide) can accommodate a flush 6-cell + Ultrabay battery, just like X30x. The overall battery capacity will be higher on the T6x, although the ULV CPU of the X30x will offset that. X6x is without a doubt weaker in that regard, since the 4-cell battery is low-capacity, and it cannot use the bay battery without the Ultrabase.
TPFanatic wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 6:34 am
I've never owned or handled an X300 or X301, but I'd suggest the T420s or T430s as more modern substitutes.
Yeah, me too. They win over X30x with a standard 2.5" drive bay, docking, ExpressCard and on T430s also USB 3.0. They lose slightly in footprint and somewhat more noticeably in fit-n-finish (a.k.a. "build quality"). They have tried and true high-res IPS screen mods (for X301 it is theoretically possible, but is it practical?). However, many retro-enthusiasts have a strong dislike of 16:9 screen ratio.
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Re: Thinkpad T700 i7-10710 private project

#11 Post by TPFanatic » Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:46 am

Yes, great point on the 2.5" drives.. and I just remembered too that the T420s also has a single USB 3.0 on the back. More special, however, is that T430s with i7 and iGPU have Thunderbolt 1, which is a more convenient solution for eGPU than Expresscard, altho speed-wise it's around the same.

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Re: Thinkpad T700 i7-10710 private project

#12 Post by mikemex » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:15 pm

RealBlackStuff wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:50 am
Maybe OT, but did anybody with an X300/X301 ever try an Ultrabay SATA-mod similar to the T43/p drivebay?
The SATA lines could be, in theory, redirected to one of the Mini PCIe slots, effectively adding mSATA support. Then both a secondary battery and a secondary hard drive could be used at the same time.
X301: SU9600 | 8GB | 1TB | WXGA+
X1C5: 7600U | 16GB | 1TB | FHD
X1C9: 1145G7 | 16GB | 1TB | WUXGA | WWAN
X1Y8: 1365U | 32GB | 1TB | WUXGA
P14s G1 AMD: 4750U | 32GB | 1TB | PG FHD Touch
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Re: Thinkpad X300/X301 modding (split off T700 discussion)

#13 Post by xytech » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:46 am

No sane intel ODM would share schematics. They all signed an NDA with intel and unless you wanna get sued to oblivion, they won’t risk that with a sub-200 unit product.

Same deal with AMD. In short, if it’s x86, you likely won’t see any vendors (ODM, OEM or otherwise) providing schematics. (Except pcengines, probably because it’s an old AMD chip or they had an exclusive agreement with AMD).

For a rough estimate, a board design from a small no name ODM is about 50K USD. Coreboot porting from 3mdeb is about 20K. These excludes the amount of effort needed to push it into production, including sourcing for materials and chips. A simple project like this really requires a lot of funding to even get started.

BTW there was a call for an X301 design. It never materialised because less than a hundred people signed up.

The only way to go around this is to go towards ARM. Then again, if you’re that passionate about these projects, you’re more than welcomed to design your own RPI CM4 carrier board for whatever machine you’re designing. Why is there no such projects? It’s really just financials. Someone with that kind of skills or time are very very unlikely to build something like this where the opportunity cost could be working for a FAANG company paying 200K a year.

These projects are simply enthusiast projects at this point: perhaps a stepping stone to something bigger, but very likely to fall apart anytime. I’m very keen on doing this as a full time job in the future, but if you were in my position (undergrad) and gets offered a job from Google or Lenovo as a hardware engineer, any one of you would take it in a heartbeat.

As a final background note, everyone involved in building this project are not full timers. Hope, 17m19, and everyone else are literally part timers with full time job. 51nb has a small office which does not hire any full time staff. I’m doing my undergrad full time of course.

Apologies for the rant/reply but wanted to spell it out here. I think I’ll write a blog post on this explaining the background work.

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Re: Thinkpad X300/X301 modding (split off T700 discussion)

#14 Post by RealBlackStuff » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:31 pm

There are plenty of forum members who have IBM and Lenovo schematics (I have over 100, all obtained for free).
There are also plenty of online sellers of IBM/Lenovo (and any other brand) schematics.
Lovely day for a Guinness! (The Real Black Stuff)
Lenovo: X240, X250, T440p, T480, M900 Tiny.

PS: the old Boardroom website is still available on the Wayback Machine
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xytech
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Re: Thinkpad X300/X301 modding (split off T700 discussion)

#15 Post by xytech » Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:59 am

Those aren’t legal and are usually leaked from the ODM. These smaller ODMs have absolute control over the schematics and they might only release them half a decade later once intel stops caring enough about them.

Most of them are in closed forums and file sharing sites for a good reason. They weren’t legally released.

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