X200s -- Flimsy screen, case flex, keyboard flex

[ThinkRob]

[removed] - I was wrong.
---
Update:

After some consideration (and after owning the machine for a longer period of time), I'd like to clarify and ammend some aspects of my original post:

1) The screen casing appears far more susceptible to torsion than the screen casing on my X40, my X60s, and my X61s. That said, when closed it appears to be far more resistant to downward pressure -- I suspect it might even withstand being stepped on, which is no mean feat.

2) The case flexes, but I'm not sure that means it's not durable. As one of the members here pointed out, rigid materials may well shatter or fracture when stressed, whereas ones with more "give" may end up being more durable. (Example: the wings on commercial airliners have a tremendous amount of flex in them, yet nobody would call them "flimsy".)

3) One of the keyboard designs still sucks. Sorry, but there's no way to sugar coat it. There are two backplate designs, and while one of them is quite good (I now have both), the one with more holes in it (which the machine orginally shipped with) has a worse, flexier feel. At least it was easy to fix: I just replaced the keyboard, and it's now right on par with some of the other, older ThinkPads I've used.

Lastly, an excerpt from my reply to another post on the topic:

As for the palmrest: having done complete tear-downs of all my machines, I can say without hesitation that the X200s uses slightly more pliable plastics for the palmrest than the X61s. It's not a question of case screws or anything like that -- the materials are just different.

I've compared my machine to multiple X200 units, BTW, and have found that they *do* seem to be a bit sturdier. That said, I'd get the X200s if you want a light machine with incredibly battery life. It's still a solidly built computer -- even at its worst it's a lot sturdier than most consumer laptops -- and at the prices that it tends to be available it's really not a bad deal.

One more thing about the screen: while it's true that it's far more susceptible to torsion than the X61s, it's actually far more resistant to downward pressure when the lid is closed. I actually have more faith that my X200s would survive being stepped on whilst close than I do my X61s. The X200s appears very rigid when closed; it's just when it's open that I think it feels "cheaper" than the X61s.

[JaneL]

I'd be interested in hearing back from any X300 owners with regards to the points above: do the keyboard and screen have flex?

Keyboard, no; screen, somewhat yes, as it's considerably thinner than my X200T screen. The X300 is designed to be thin, light and almost fits in a manila envelope. Hard to make that combination rigid.

[ThinkRob]

Keyboard, no; screen, somewhat yes, as it's considerably thinner than my X200T screen. The X300 is designed to be thin, light and almost fits in a manila envelope. Hard to make that combination rigid.

:/

I guess what puzzles me about the screen is that it's not really any thinner than the screen on my X61s or my X40 (although it is wider.) It really just seems like they used a flimsier plastic.

Is the X300 screen as flexible as the screen in the clip?

[JaneL]

Is the X300 screen as flexible as the screen in the clip?

Don't know and am not about to exert enough pressure on it to find out. With enough pressure I could probably bend the screen on my 600X or T60p, but I wouldn't do that either.

The X300 is fairly tough, and I'm pretty careless with it. In the 21 months I've had it, I've bounced it off the carpeted floor a number of times and routinely pick it up by the screen or the corner of the palmrest. So far the only thing that's failed has been the SSD drive which self-destructed and was replaced a few months ago. YMMV

[sugo]

Which X200s did you get? The one with 1440x900 LED backlit screen or 1280x800 CCFL?

I was quite shocked to watch the case flexing video. I recently got a brand new X61. There is no way I can make it flex like the X200s.

[ThinkRob]

Don't know and am not about to exert enough pressure on it to find out. With enough pressure I could probably bend the screen on my 600X or T60p, but I wouldn't do that either.

Fair enough. I didn't really exert that much pressure on the screen though -- the same amount of force on my X61s and X40 screens barely warps them.

Which X200s did you get? The one with 1440x900 LED backlit screen or 1280x800 CCFL?

The LED-backlit screen.

I was quite shocked to watch the case flexing video. I recently got a brand new X61. There is no way I can make it flex like the X200s.

The case flex is pretty silly. The same amount of force doesn't flex my X61s at all. It does distort the plastic directly above the PC card slot on my X61s and my X40 just a tiny bit -- but that's more understandable.

[ThinkRob]

Don't know and am not about to exert enough pressure on it to find out. With enough pressure I could probably bend the screen on my 600X or T60p, but I wouldn't do that either.

Fair enough. I didn't really exert that much pressure on the screen though -- the same amount of force on my X61s and X40 screens barely warps them.

The X300 is fairly tough, and I'm pretty careless with it. In the 21 months I've had it, I've bounced it off the carpeted floor a number of times and routinely pick it up by the screen or the corner of the palmrest. So far the only thing that's failed has been the SSD drive which self-destructed and was replaced a few months ago. YMMV

That's good to hear. Personally I'm quite gentle with my laptops -- but I can't always say the same for their environment. (That's why I always check screen warp and case flex -- those stresses are not uncommon when my laptop has the misfortune to be acted upon by an "outside force".) I'm considering an X300, but frankly after my experience with modern Lenovo systems I'm hesitant to purchase one without being able to "kick the tires" in a store somewhere.

Which X200s did you get? The one with 1440x900 LED backlit screen or 1280x800 CCFL?

The LED-backlit screen.

I was quite shocked to watch the case flexing video. I recently got a brand new X61. There is no way I can make it flex like the X200s.

The case flex is pretty silly. The same amount of force doesn't flex my X61s at all. It does distort the plastic directly above the PC card slot on my X61s and my X40 just a tiny bit -- but that's a lot more understandable.

[akitaen]

Hey Rob,

At work we only use thinkpads so I see all models, plus I have a few in my collection. 8^)

My X300 build is as good as any legacy thinkpads. The case is solid and stiff. My keyboard is the NMB, firm keys and stiff backplate, as good as anything ever. The LCD panel is thin, soft, and flexy, it's a bit shocking compared to something like a T42p 15" IPS panel where the top is rigid and hard. I don't think it matters though, I suspect that it is tough and the LED lighting probably doesn't need the protection of the CFLs. The unit feels great closed. The keys slightly mar the panel, but the effect is not visible while the unit is on. I really like the X300, but the screen is rubbish in every way you've heard and additionally in ways that are not usually articulated.

A few more notes, a peer of mine has an X301 that isn't nearly as good. My screen (rubbish though it is) is a flawless example, but his bleeds around the bezel (not just the 'normal' glowing blacks), and his computer is a dog, which I suspect is a combination of MLC drive, Windows OS + antivirus compared to my SLC drive + Ubuntu. My performance is excellent despite the unimpressive specs.

Some of the IBM attention to detail has been lost; for example the T42 thinklight illuminates the keyboard but the light is hooded so you can't see the diode. But on the X300 it's idiotic; the thinklight shines in the user's eyes, like someone who didn't get it wanted the feature to be more conspicuous.

On keyboards, I'm not really an NMB bigot. X300 NMB is perfect, but my T22 NMB is no great shakes (at least after years of use...). And I've got Alps which is light but communicative, fast and accurate. I've got a T42 Chicony that is terrific (call it perfect) despite a flexy plate, and I use a T60 Chicony that is nothing great despite a stiff plate.

A few more impressions that may not be obvious until you've used an X300 for a while. My unit runs really cool and the 6 cell battery lasts about forever. In this way it's one of the rightest thinkpads ever. Seat of the pants impression is that my X300 is a quality unit that will run forever, between the "ultra low voltage" processor and solid state disk. By comparison most of the work T6x's and Z6x's have cooked, these were not a good generation IMO (YMMV...) 1.8" drive options are limited and expensive, SLC rules but there may not be any great alternatives. And my impression is that X300 batteries are priced at $50/cell vs X200 batteries at $10/cell (I could be wrong but I'd check if it was my money)

Good luck with you next machine, the modern Lenovos have some excellence but most are hampered by unfortunate cost cutting.

[ThinkRob]

[snipped awesomely-detailed response]

Wow. Thanks!

It's good to hear that the X300 is pretty solid.

I had heard that the X300 screen was rubbish, but that doesn't really matter much for me -- I primarily do coding, and provided that I can differentiate between the various syntax colors in my editor, I'm happy.

My X200 has some backlight bleed too -- it's annoying, but at the bottom of my list of concerns with the machine. I've seen backlight bleeding on so many machines that I don't really get that worked up about it anymore. I figure that's one of the things you just have to deal with.

I'm glad that the X300 case is stiff and rigid. The flexy lid thing would probably bother me though -- hopefully it's as durable as we think it is.

I'm going to replace the X200s -- that much is clear. The question for me now is what to replace it with.

I've already got an X61s (a great all-around portable) and an X40 (my play/testing/break-on-a-daily-basis machine.) I've currently got the following options for replacement of my X200s (filling the role of day-to-day, work-everywhere portable):

• T43p w/ Flexview and all the goodies, in warranty until 2011.
• X300, either with a one-year outlet warranty, or out of warranty for a bit less cash
• X60s, with WWAN, etc in warranty until 2012
• X32, maxed out, refurbished to like-new condition

Now the tough part: choosing one...

Sorry, BTW, for my kinda-ranty thread. It just irked me a bit, and I figured that folks here would be more understanding than my coworkers would be if I were to just growl and shake my fist at the machine.

[dr_st]

I've already got an X61s (a great all-around portable) and an X40 (my play/testing/break-on-a-daily-basis machine.) I've currently got the following options for replacement of my X200s (filling the role of day-to-day, work-everywhere portable):

* T43p w/ Flexview and all the goodies, in warranty until 2011.
* X300, either with a one-year outlet warranty, or out of warranty for a bit less cash
* X60s, with WWAN, etc in warranty until 2012
* X32, maxed out, refurbished to like-new condition

Out of all these, the only one that makes sense to me is the X300. It's hard to see what bonus an X60s/X32 will give you, if you already have an X40 and an X61s. The T43p is one very nice machine, but for portability and taking it everywhere, the 15" might be over the top, especially since you are used to the smaller, half-the-weight 12" models.

The X300 on the other hand is almost as portable as a 12", and offers a couple of benefits, such as higher resolution and built-in optical drive. No docking station support though.

I would definitely try to get one with warranty, even just for a year - because you will be able to extend it later if you wish. Makes little sense to me to invest in such a high-end system with no warranty.

[ThinkRob]

Out of all these, the only one that makes sense to me is the X300. It's hard to see what bonus an X60s/X32 will give you, if you already have an X40 and an X61s. The T43p is one very nice machine, but for portability and taking it everywhere, the 15" might be over the top, especially since you are used to the smaller, half-the-weight 12" models.

Well the idea (if I get a T43p) would be to use that as my primary machine, and relegate the X61s to being my "go anywhere"machine.

The X60s... well... no idea.

The X32 because parts are cheap, it's upgradeable, and if I break it I know I can fix it pretty easily.

The X300 on the other hand is almost as portable as a 12", and offers a couple of benefits, such as higher resolution and built-in optical drive. No docking station support though.

I would definitely try to get one with warranty, even just for a year - because you will be able to extend it later if you wish. Makes little sense to me to invest in such a high-end system with no warranty.

Yeah, if I get an X300 it'd definitely be with some form of maintenance agreement. After some consideration I agree -- it wouldn't make sense to get a high-end machine without coverage. The lack of a docking station isn't a big deal, as I typically only have power + 1 USB device when using it at my desk.

Thanks! Now to find an affordable machine...

[magnusansky]

Got my new X200s recently. Haven't used it much yet (still transitioning files and programs). I'm not sure I would have noticed all the flex stuff if it weren't for this thread. =) =/

Anyway, I can concur that compared to an X32, the X32 feels very solid under the palms, under the escape key, etc. The X200S definitely has some bend when you press down.
Also, the X300 is also more solid feeling at the palm rest and esc key locations.

Still that said, I wouldn't necessarily qualify the X200s as a flimsy computer (not that anyone is making that accusation). Also, assuming I can handle this flex, I'm not sure what kind of other fallout there might be with a flexing computer, but I hope it's not bad.

[cosma12]

Hi magnusansky - and others posting here, can you coment on how your X200s lid closes - does it have any play when closed - ie while closed can you press the front edge of the screen and still move it towards the palmrest?
mine is prety tight on the left side but on the right side - where the switch that opens the lid is - it has a bit of play room that allows you to move the screen up and down while the computer is close (I am just talking one or two mms, but compared with this a T400s that I saw was closing rock solid).

thanks,

[magnusansky]

re: screen closed

Depends on what orientation you have the X200s in.

If it's sitting normally on a table, then there's a tiny bit of play, but not much
If you're holding it vertically (so that you can look down at the crack), then there's a lot of play (like what you mentioned) on the right side. (I have the 2x2 screen, btw)

On the other hand, for the X300, there is no play when it is sitting on the table, and about half as much play when held vertically.

Boy, I have to stop reading this thread. =)

[cosma12]

Thanks magnusansky - so probably that's how it's supposed to be. It makes sense as the right latch grabs on the right side end of the switch rod - which is thin plastic and moves around a bit more than the left end; this opposed to the X300 were the same as in the T400s the latch holders (switch rod) are attached to the case and the latches themself grab somewhere on the midle of the switch rod. Probably those being larger systems they had more room to design it that way.
Oh well you can not have everything.....

[ThinkRob]

Yeah, it's worth noting that when the lid is closed, it seems to be quite rigid. It also seems very pressure-resistant; it compares favorably to my X40 in that regard.

[aau007]

According to psref, they did change the material use between the x61s and x200s. x61s is all magnesium alloy whereas the x200s is carbon-fiber reinforced plastic on top, glass-fiber reinforced plastic on side and magnesium alloy in base.

[Cunha]

Thanks for those nice videos even if they kinda gross me out.

How does the new T400s fair in regard to the softness that was shown in those videos? That is the most attractive new model to me right now, except I did notice the WXGA+ screens were available for the X200 again, finally!

[Eudoxus]

I have no first-hand experience with X200 but as far as I can tell there is nothing shocking in those videos as I can reproduce similar flex on my sturdy T61 with magnesium roll cage. I have seen T41 and X61 and they are for sure more flimsy than my T61.
Consequently I tend to think that there is no reason to doubt the built quality of X200s. People sometimes become a bit picky and start to panic about those things without any good reasons.

[Cunha]

We aren't saying that the X200 is garbage. I am positive that your T60 palmrest does not dent that easily, unless the T60 is a lot floppier than the Z61t (the only 14 inch widescreen I have much experience with)

On the X61 I can't even approach that level of flex in the palm rest or on the bottom, screen is more rigid too. I am sure the X200 is awesome, along with the rest of the current line, just doesn't look like it has the best "feel".

I'd like to see a video of the x200 being picked up by the corner near the "lenovo" logo on the palm rest with the screen open.

[Eudoxus]

Not exactly what you wanted but still impressive:
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Len ... 531.0.html

[Cunha]

I almost threw up! Why would you do that!

Neat though. Like I said, seems durable enough. Just looks floppy.

[ThinkRob]

Not exactly what you wanted but still impressive:
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-Len ... 531.0.html

It's worth noting that the configuration that they list there is the WXGA one, not the WXGA+ one. As a result, it likely has the X200-style screen casing, rather than the lighter, slimmer one found on the X200s models equipped with WXGA+.

No idea how much that influences the case flex, but I figured I should point it out.

[Eudoxus]

The model reviewed here in fact is X200s (not X200). Although you are right that it is equipped with WXGA non-LED screen. Unfortunately I do not know whether there is any difference between WXGA and WXGA+ in terms of rigidity. Although I have read some poeple complaining about the flimsiness of lid in case of LED panels.

[Cunha]

I am always willing to overlook flimsiness when it comes to those hyper thin carbon fiber trick LED screens like you see on some of the very small sony laptops.

[cosma12]

x200s with the WXGA+ LED screen has a rock solid screen lid, if you want to see flimsy look at the T400s lid...
it's so thin probably presure points will be a common accurence on that model.

[ThinkRob]

x200s with the WXGA+ LED screen has a rock solid screen lid, if you want to see flimsy look at the T400s lid...
it's so thin probably presure points will be a common accurence on that model.

I wouldn't describe the WXGA+ X200s lid as "rock solid" at all (note the video).

It is, however, quite resistant to pressure when the laptop is closed. In fact, it appears to be far superior to the X6x series in terms of rigidity in that direction.

That's not the sort of force I worry about though. I'm very careful to avoid putting pressure on the lid when the laptop is closed, but when I'm using the machine in a cramped space such as a train or plane, it's not at all uncommon for a fat or careless passenger to clip the corner of my laptop screen with their bag (or body). In those instances, I'd rather have a screen that's resistant to torsion; and the WXGA+ lid is simply not as resistant to that sort of force as is the X6x lid.

The model reviewed here in fact is X200s (not X200). Although you are right that it is equipped with WXGA non-LED screen. Unfortunately I do not know whether there is any difference between WXGA and WXGA+ in terms of rigidity. Although I have read some poeple complaining about the flimsiness of lid in case of LED panels.

AFAIK, the X200s configurations with the WXGA screen have the same top assembly (both panel and screen casing) as the X200 -- one that is, by some accounts, more rigid and less prone to torsion than the WXGA+ assembly.

[Initial D]

3) One of the keyboard designs still sucks. Sorry, but there's no way to sugar coat it. There are two backplate designs, and while one of them is quite good (I now have both), the one with more holes in it (which the machine orginally shipped with) has a worse, flexier feel. At least it was easy to fix: I just replaced the keyboard, and it's now right on par with some of the other, older ThinkPads I've used.

Which specific keyboard was better than the other? Was it the NMB (42T3671) or the Chicony (42T3737)?

[GrandMasterKhan]

Those 2 videos are disconcerting. Does anyone know of the X201 (s and non s) are any better? Also, with your keyboard fix, ie getting a more rigid one, I understand this happened too with the T series with some customers asking for T61 keyboards. Because the keyboard on the X200/X201 series is supposed to be just as wide as the T series, is your new keyboard in fact from a T61? I gotta tell you the T61 has the best keyboard I've ever used.

[ThinkRob]

Also, with your keyboard fix, ie getting a more rigid one, I understand this happened too with the T series with some customers asking for T61 keyboards. Because the keyboard on the X200/X201 series is supposed to be just as wide as the T series, is your new keyboard in fact from a T61? I gotta tell you the T61 has the best keyboard I've ever used.

The X20x(s) do not use the same keyboard design as the T6x/R6x/Z6x/T(4|5)00.