lenovo's answer to the keyboard controversy

[orca3000]

http://lenovoblogs.com/designmatters/?p=228

[FizzleDizzle]

Here was my response on the blog:

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I appreciate your documenting the testing process, but it misses the point entirely. This rings of the classic “engineers presume they understand HCI” because they use computers.

If your customers are unhappy, it doesn’t make a whiff of difference how you arrived at or tested the change. Trying to argue “you are right” is absurd. The customer is always right, particularly when buying high end laptops that many of us replace on a yearly basis.

Either Lenovo returns to its original keyboard design — your engineers’ logic be [censored] — or it will continue to lose market share.

The only reasonable thing to do is here is issue an apology, say the change was made in good faith, and return to the original design. (Please tell me someone there has been to business school.)

I have almost a dozen old Thinkpads in my closet and I’m afraid my T60P is going to become the last of them.
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[dkchen]

I was going to write a rebuttal to the previous comment, but its clear that it'll be like talking to a wall.

I think that a lot of thinkpad users are very extreme and conservative.

[FizzleDizzle]

I was going to write a rebuttal to the previous comment, but its clear that it'll be like talking to a wall.

So, why did you even bother writing that?

(And conservative? Please. Obama'08!)

[dkchen]

LoL mainly because i actually wrote the thing, but decided that starting a flame war would be retarded. And I'm too lazy to really keep up on it loL

Since i went through the effort of writing "something" I might as well write something in place of something else...

Holy crap i'm going to get confused soon... going to go eat

[FizzleDizzle]

In case it's unclear to anyone, most Thinkpad users can pick any laptop we want. This is not bargain hunting at CostCo we're talking about.

The crowning glory of the Thinkpad line has been the keyboard and Trackpoint. One can get the Trackpoint from Dell. So, why would Lenovo mess with the only singular feature of an otherwise behind the state of the art laptop?

The Thinkpad name seems to be rolling very much on momentum and misplaced buyer loyalty these days.

[emorphien]

The keyboard and trackpoint are nice benefits of Thinkpads (as was the active protection system which many others copy now and SSDs don't require) but they aren't the reasons I've been most satisfied with Thinkpads. I've found Thinkpads more durable than other mainstream brands and that in and of itself is worth a premium.

Comparing my T43p to my X31, the X31 doesn't flex anywhere and the keyboard is rock solid. The T43p has flex in areas on the palm rest (notably above the PCMCIA/ExpressCard slots) and the keyboard can flex some (not under normal typing, but it's there if I push on it). The top piece of trim over the DVD drive can also be jiggled a bit, but it still sits in place. However in spite of these minor things it's incredibly durable and has held up better than any notebook I've owned... well the X31 has been just as good and I bought it used.

If the T400 is at least as good as that, it's still worth the premium even if the keyboard has dropped a bit IMO. I'll find out how much things have changed when I get mine though.

As far as trackpoint interface goes, yes Dell offers something similar (I have a Dell with one) but it's nowhere near as good as that on the Thinkpad.

[FizzleDizzle]

I always purchase the 3 year on-site support option for Thinkpads. My T60P, with its wonderful active protection system, had its hard drive die with a month of my getting it. (And I certainly don't drop my laptop.) But it's only had two service calls so far.

My previous T40 required well over a dozen service calls -- I got to know the repair fellow quite well in the process -- and has nothing original left within it other than the case.

I deal with enough machines from enough manufacturers to discount most of these issues. Yes, my Dell machines have died too, but those are purchased with 24x7, 4 hour response time service, and I've literally had repairmen out at 3AM to replace components. I was quite satisfied with that.

As long as you choose the fastest on-site service option, you're generally well covered. (And IBM used to offer same day service. Now, they only provide next business day, which sucks on a weekend.)

Bottom line is that Thinkpads are starting to lose their elite, innovative status. And tampering with their famous keyboards will alienate many (but obviously not all) longtime, loyal customers.

[wswartzendruber]

My whole thing is, "If I can fix it myself, so be it." This goes for replacing the keyboard.

[beeblebrox]

I always purchase the 3 year on-site support option for Thinkpads. My T60P, with its wonderful active protection system, had its hard drive die with a month of my getting it. (And I certainly don't drop my laptop.) But it's only had two service calls so far.

My previous T40 required well over a dozen service calls -- I got to know the repair fellow quite well in the process -- and has nothing original left within it other than the case.

I deal with enough machines from enough manufacturers to discount most of these issues. Yes, my Dell machines have died too, but those are purchased with 24x7, 4 hour response time service, and I've literally had repairmen out at 3AM to replace components. I was quite satisfied with that.

As long as you choose the fastest on-site service option, you're generally well covered. (And IBM used to offer same day service. Now, they only provide next business day, which sucks on a weekend.)

Bottom line is that Thinkpads are starting to lose their elite, innovative status. And tampering with their famous keyboards will alienate many (but obviously not all) longtime, loyal customers.

I absolutely agree with you. Tampering with the keyboard is like the new S-Class with a plastic Mercedes Star in front. Sure, they can tell us that the plastic is as strong as the chromed metal. But customers will notice that "...something just isnt' right!"

We have the first T400 notebooks in our office and many of us are not really enthusiastic about their new machines.
Well, someone in the Lenovoblogs mentioned that the T60 keyboard might fit in.
Maybe Lenovo is going after the accessory and spare parts business?
I can imagine that T6x keyboards will develop into a major profit line..

[emorphien]

Well my T400 just arrived at 9AM this morning and I'm still debating whether I should wipe it clean or continue to uninstall what they put on it (there's not as much stuff, and so far I've gotten rid of a bunch). The keyboard on the T400 doesn't feel a whole lot different from what I have on my T43p, both flex a bit but both have good key response.

[nxman]

I tried the T400 Keyboard and it flexes its inferior compared to my T61 solid keyboard.

[bill bolton]

Trying to argue “you are right” is absurd.

That cuts both ways!

Just because something has been 'just so' for a long time doesn't mean that its the best way to go forward!

Cheers,

Bill B.

[Conmee]

I'm all for progress and innovation, but sometimes you come across something so fundamentally good that it's difficult to improve upon. My feeling is that the keyboard has undergone two dramatic changes post-IBM. The first was finding more of the Chinese-made v. Singapore-made keyboards in later T4x and T6x. There are threads abound about this (NMB v. Chicony v. ALPS) , but it was a tactile AND audible difference. And now this change, which seems to be purely aimed at weight reduction (although I haven't check aluminum prices lately). And when you consider it's a 25% reduction (6oz v. 4.5oz) in weight that's pretty substantial.

But I agree with the Notebookreview and others that it wasn't a necessary or worthwhile trade-off. And I'm not ready to blame the engineers so much as product management/marketing. I can envision a collection of MBAs in a team room (and I was one of them...lol) discussing, "Hey, if we can shave off 3oz we'll have the smallest and lightest model in the category! Yeah! Let's perforate the keyboard base and remove the protective LCD crossbar!" Or, we'll be that much closer in weight to Sony but with a host of additional features and more power for only a few ounces more v. half a pound or a pound differential..

Much of the tech marketing I've been part of (IBM and Microsoft) rarely talks directly to customers (so many decisions I've seen made where customers and markets were assumed or inferred from aggregate data from some analysts or consultants hired to do a "study" - marketers strutting down hallways like peacocks with the latest "data" as if to say they know their customers and markets, "Look at these graphs and charts, I know my customers!!!) and more or less make decisions based on magic quadrants, analyst reports, competitors' feature sets, product mix, price points, and occasionally, engineering will reveal some sort of cool differentiator or competitive advantage, like best in class keyboards and pointing devices.

I can't recount how many times I've been part of the marketing braintrust that made all sorts of assumptions based on biases or narrow research, rather than talking to actual customers who use the product. Most marketing "professionals" have never "carried a bag" or had to sell something for a living, which tended to drive me crazy occasionally. LOL! In my experience as well as working with the marketing teams of my customers, many folks in those roles are out of touch with the individual customer, and tend to make decisions as if they were business school assignments.

Having said all that, I'm still looking forward to receiving my X200, despite potential keyboard flex.

Have a great weekend, all!

Daniel

[wswartzendruber]

I just ordered a T61 NMB. I was going to tough out the T400 keyboard, as I LOVE the tactile contact and sound, but not the flex.

[FizzleDizzle]

Just because something has been 'just so' for a long time doesn't mean that its the best way to go forward!

True enough. But given the enormous number of people who stick with Thinkpads for the keyboards (and TrackPoints), Lenovo is playing with fire here. The old keyboards have been vastly superior to those offered by their competitors. If I ran Lenovo, I wouldn't tamper with a winner, particularly the only distinguishing characteristic of the ThinkPad line in a crowded marketplace where Lenovo is not leading in features or prices.

[FizzleDizzle]

Somewhat disappointing that David Hill hasn't seen fit to respond to the comments on his blog about the keyboard problems.

I'm upgrading soon and it'd be helpful to have a statement one way or the other regarding whether Lenovo is going to address this.

[sktn77a]

After 10 years of using Thinkpads as it's corporate standard, my company has switched to Dell. Unless the Lenovo thinkpads have some palatable advantages over the competition, they are just going to be there in the pool of bidders with no good reason to choose one over the other (other than price).

My family has bought and used premium-priced Thinkpads for the last 8 years but, with all the problems we read about warranty service, motherboard defects on their top-of-the-line T61p, dim LCD panels, and now flexing keyboards, I suspect we too be going the HP/Dell direction in future.

It's called voting with your feet, Lenovo!

[wswartzendruber]

After 10 years of using Thinkpads as it's corporate standard, my company has switched to Dell. Unless the Lenovo thinkpads have some palatable advantages over the competition, they are just going to be there in the pool of bidders with no good reason to choose one over the other (other than price).

My family has bought and used premium-priced Thinkpads for the last 8 years but, with all the problems we read about warranty service, motherboard defects on their top-of-the-line T61p, dim LCD panels, and now flexing keyboards, I suspect we too be going the HP/Dell direction in future.

It's called voting with your feet, Lenovo!

Motherboard defects on the T61p? You mean the nVidia problem? That's everybody. And my T400's LCD panel is most certainly not dim. The only problem here is the keyboard, and it's easily replaceable for an extra $50. Frustration aside, it's still far more than worth it to take the ThinkPad route.

[oghowie]

After 10 years of using Thinkpads as it's corporate standard, my company has switched to Dell. Unless the Lenovo thinkpads have some palatable advantages over the competition, they are just going to be there in the pool of bidders with no good reason to choose one over the other (other than price).

My family has bought and used premium-priced Thinkpads for the last 8 years but, with all the problems we read about warranty service, motherboard defects on their top-of-the-line T61p, dim LCD panels, and now flexing keyboards, I suspect we too be going the HP/Dell direction in future.

It's called voting with your feet, Lenovo!

On a side note, I tried the XPS m1530 because of the rave reviews, but the touchpad sucked and it also felt cheap compared to my t43. Isn't the XPS their top of the line? Good thing Dell has a no restocking fee return policy. Design wise their laptops are pretty good but the quality of materials is still lacking.

[Afty]

On a side note, I tried the XPS m1530 because of the rave reviews, but the touchpad sucked and it also felt cheap compared to my t43. Isn't the XPS their top of the line? Good thing Dell has a no restocking fee return policy. Design wise their laptops are pretty good but the quality of materials is still lacking.

XPS is their top consumer line, but if you're looking for something comparable to the Lenovo T-Series, you should be looking at the new Latitude E6xxx laptops.

[Conmee]

Just received my X200 earlier today. Running various benchmarks, and setting it up. The keyboard feels great, very solid, compares favorably to my X60. I'll give the X60 a very very slight edge in terms of firmness. The ESC and PgUP keys on the X200 are the only areas that have any noticeable flex, but definitely not anywhere near as bad as what I've been reading for the T400/T500, and certainl not a deal-breaker. I verified it's the same perforated keyboard so it may have to do with more components packed tighter together suppoerting the keyboard on the X200.

And the screen is noticeably brighter with better color than my X60 or T60. Still not as bright as the Sony SZ I had, but plenty bright enough. Definitely compares favorably to recent Thinkpads and I'd call it an unquestionable imrpovement.

Daniel.