Thinkpads Forum

I'm not quite sure how Lenovo could have managed something worse than the sculpted asymmetry they've been reveling in recently.

I'm happy to see them clean up the LEDs. It's been getting a bit ridiculous lately.

Puppy wrote:Does it mean that Lenovo has "finally" ruined keyboard layout of T series as well ?

Apparently so. I do not like keyboard changes. There are a lot of other things they could have spent time and money fixing without screwing with the keyboard.

So Lenovo has finally answered mine and others' calls for what is effectively a T300 of sorts (in this case with a 14'' screen).

I have to say it's nice to see them actually putting some new technology on this model with regards to ports, the combination USB and eSATA port is particularly nice but I don't like non-standard ports like the dual purpose mic and headphone jack.

With regards to that form factor though, I see no good reason why they can't put some form of switchable graphics in there at the 14-inch form factor, albeit a reduced footprint one, there's a bit more of a kick than the X301 but that still appeals to me more if I was going to buy a lightweight machine from Lenovo.

How much of this is going to be standard anyway? I doubt that they'll all have LED screens, there's been enough problems with the current T400 and those.

I do however appreciate there bold move towards progress, but they're messing with staples such as the keyboard for not really much differentiation between the X301 or the current T400.

JaneL wrote:Apparently so. I do not like keyboard changes. There are a lot of other things they could have spent time and money fixing without screwing with the keyboard.

I think we should start a petition or a discussion on Lenovo blogs / forums to have it changed back. I'm definitely in.

The Esc I can understand. There were complaints about the improper placement of it on traditional Thinkpad keyboard (to the top of F1, instead of on the left), so they changed it, but in a way that will suit both types - also those that are used to it being at the very very top.

The Del key I don't understand. Probably some people complained that it was not large enough? But I can't imagine why anyone would.

Do people use the Windows and Menu keys? I remember when I got my T42p there was some brouhaha that they were finally able to get rid of those, and we got bigger Alt keys instead. I like that simpler layout. I understand maybe those keys were brought back later for Vista hardware compliance, but, really, are they useful for much of anything?

Anyways, another one waiting for the discrete graphics version of T400s to replace my T42p.

By the way, would anyone happen to know whether the burner is dual layer-capable, unlike the one in X301?

dr_st wrote:The Del key I don't understand. Probably some people complained that it was not large enough? But I can't imagine why anyone would.

Personally I don't see the new keyboard layout as a problem, but a welcome evolutionary step. Keyboards have many obsolete keys that most people almost never use: Caps Lock, SysRq, Insert, Pause, Break, Scroll Lock and Num Lock to some extent. At the same time Esc and Delete have become increasingly more important, or at least not lost their importance.

- Backspace has always been big - why couldn't Delete be big also?
- Do you people actually use the Insert key? I think it's a relic from WordPerfect <5.1 era (and that was in the 80's!), when computers didn't have mice and all text editing was non-graphical. Even back then its usefulness was questionable.

I'm sorry, akeskira, but I completely disagree.

Just because certain keys are used more frequently than others, does not mean that they need to be made bigger, or more conspicuous.

And definitely just because "most" people "almost" never use something is not a reason to take it away. Because if you do, then your product will be not almost, but completely unusable to the small percentage of the people that do use that feature.

I for instance use all of the keys you mentioned.

Caps Lock: Convenient when typing in all caps (headings, banners, etc), plus I assign it to functions in games.
SysRq: That's the PrintScreen key, useful for taking screenshots of the desktop.
Insert: Can be used for cut-n-paste, especially in some Linux environments where Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V doesn't work. Plus I assign it to functions in games.
Pause/Break (same key): Ctrl+Break to stop batch jobs or to stop the build of my code (I'm a programmer). Windows+Pause is a convenient way to bring the system properties (faster to get to the device manager).
Scroll Lock: the only one that's really unused
Num Lock: When I want to use the numeric keypad for keying in numbers (normally my Num Lock is off).

See the point?

And in general, declaring things obsolete because "the average joe" finds no use to them is not the way to go for a business machine. That sounds more like the philosophy of Apple, who really would like to see the keyboard being deteriorated to a "single giant button", not what I would expect from a Thinkpad.

Granted, no one took the insert key away from me (if they did, I would really scream that the keyboard is totally unusable). They just moved it. They didn't even move it too far. No, it will not be a terrible deal breaker, if the rest of the laptop is good. But still, I don't see the need.

Yes, I could get used to this slightly modified layout pretty fast, but then it would just continue confusing me when I go between this and my older Thinkpads, as well as my desktop keyboards. One of the reasons I am so attached to Thinkpads has always been the standard key layout. I made sure to only buy desktop keyboard with this same layout for the sake of simplicity. Why break it? Who will really benefit from it?

dr_st wrote:Yes, I could get used to this slightly modified layout pretty fast, but then it would just continue confusing me when I go between this and my older Thinkpads, as well as my desktop keyboards. One of the reasons I am so attached to Thinkpads has always been the standard key layout. I made sure to only buy desktop keyboard with this same layout for the sake of simplicity. Why break it? Who will really benefit from it?

To answer the "why": evolution. You have found secondary use for many obsolete keys, but just because they've been there for decades, doesn't mean they should be there for the next 20 years.

Since people can feel really strongly about the keyboard layout, I don't want to start any wars or be considered as a troll. I'm just saying that evolution can be good.

To counter argue the keys you mentioned:

Caps Lock: Holding shift down for those occasions when caps are needed is no big deal. Caps Lock uses a premium space in the keyboard. I'd much rather have something useful there (for example @, / or the like). You could map that new key to games as well.
SysRq: Could be Print Screen + Num Lock
Insert: In unices, mouse middle button is often the way to go for pasting. If you're using mouse to paint the area to be copied, why switch to keyboard for the paste?
Pause/Break: Control+C, Control+Backspace or anything like could be used instead of the Control+Break.

But I think the bottom line is that Lenovo has to enhance their products so that they also appeal to the big public, not just us TP fanboys. The more Lenovo has happy buying customers, the better chances we have to get our nice top-of-the-line models.

akeskira wrote:I don't want to start any wars or be considered as a troll. I'm just saying that evolution can be good.

True, evolution can be good, when it actually brings some benefit. I do not see the benefit in this particular fiddling (I do see it in the case of the Esc key, for instance). I cannot imagine anyone thinking that a bigger Delete key is so appealing, so as to make a difference in usability. But on the other hand, you have enough people unhappy about changing something they're used to.

Are you actually happy with the Delete key being made bigger, because you had problems hitting it when it was smaller, or do you support this decision, simply because "it's evolution, and evolution is good"?

akeskira wrote:But I think the bottom line is that Lenovo has to enhance their products so that they also appeal to the big public, not just us TP fanboys.

This is what the Ideapad, and the 3000 series are for. Plenty of room for enhancements and feature testing there. Thinkpads are for Thinkpad fans, fanboys, however you call them. I also take you back to my remark above regarding the questionable appeal of this particular decision.

Puppy wrote:The "Thin profile" one shows how crappy the display is. No surprise ...

Most likely they put the already known WXGA+ panel inside the new T400s.

Here's what the U.S. keyboard supposedly looks like: http://jkontherun.com/2009/06/11/thinkp ... t-14-inch/

Thanks to the original blog owner.

t001 wrote:Here's what the U.S. keyboard supposedly looks like: http://jkontherun.com/2009/06/11/thinkp ... t-14-inch/

Ugh.

Sometimes I think they must be having an internal contest to see which department can ruin the ThinkPad first.

May be we can replace the keyboard with one from T61/T400?

Dead1nside wrote:but I don't like non-standard ports like the dual purpose mic and headphone jack.

That is a widely used "standard port" for mobile communications devices.

Cheers,

Bill B.

dr_st wrote:See the point?

No.

dr_st wrote:Yes, I could get used to this slightly modified layout pretty fast...

After taking a very close look at the keyboard, I remain as convinced as I was _before_ seeing this model, that Lenovo is drifting in a sea of uncertainty & confusion.
I continue to be amazed at how they spend their time & resources, changing things that previously were not a problem like the keyboard. If this layout is implemented in the US version it's a deal breaker for me. Too much trouble to deal with different keyboard layouts from the 400s to my current ThinkPads. In addition, unofficially, it's my understanding this is but the first of many new ThinkPads to be released in the not too distant future. Thus I have planned to take a wait & see approach. I believe that strategy will pay of handsomely.
.
Cheers...

.

hey at least its not the horrible layout used by Apple and Sony on their Z series. Still real keyboard. And if it is an improvement over currently t400 swiss cheese keyboard, i am all for change. I am not an old time thinkpad user and that new layout looks alot sleeker to me. The on buttton and volume/thinkvantage keys in particular look alot nicer, I always though that the current ones look like something from the 80s. The symmetrical hinges and screen bezel is also a huge improvement over assymentrical t400. If lenovo made this thing out of brushed aluminium, they would have a real competitor to macbook pros when it comes to looks.

I was skeptic after reading the first post (SL-alike keyboard? Aargh...) but after seeing the pictures I must say I like it.

I'm not a long time ThinkPad user. I use them for about 3 years now. I still sometimes accidentally open Help (F1) when I want to close something (Esc) so I welcome the Esc change. I have no problem with the Delete change, it's easier to hit a bigger key when it's dark for example. Insert is used infrequently so it's not a dig deal that it's moved. I don't see any other changes.

I like the new power/volume buttons though I always said that the advantage of the silver ones is that they're easier to spot in dark. With the new ones being completely flat, it may be harder to find them in such environment.

Someone was suggesting that the ThinkLight is gone. I don't think so, look at the Page Up key, the light icon is still there. What a relief, I use this feature a lot. I wouldn't change it for a backlighted keyboard as the ThinkLight illuminates much more than just the keycaps. It proved very useful on many occasions for me.

The bezel is ok, I understand that they need place for the antennas and that the thick bezel supposedly provides a better reception than the thin ones from the T4x/T60 ThinkPads. But it's good that it's symmetric, makes the whole machine look much cleaner.

Nobody commented on the stripes! The blue one on the middle button is missing but the red ones are back. And the shape of the keys seems much more ergonomic, that arch on them reminds me of the T2x series.

I'm not impressed by the unremovable optical drive. I actually use the second harddrive in my T60 much more often than the optical drive.

The battery is in the front. Does this mean no extended batteries?

yak wrote:I'm not impressed by the unremovable optical drive. I actually use the second harddrive in my T60 much more often than the optical drive.

Since there is now an eSATA port, you can connect a whole range of storage devices externally, so the need for second internal HDD is significantly reduced.

Cheers,

Bill B.

yak wrote:The battery is in the front. Does this mean no extended batteries?

The x300 series has also a front battery. There are two batteries: 3 cell and 6 cell. With the 3 cell battery the notebook is very slim. The 6 cell battery is thicker and makes the notebook stand completely horizontally.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. That's acceptable.

I haven't commented on the cleaned up LED indicators. Personally I have no problem having a lot of them, they don't get in the way and may be useful sometimes.

But did they really just remove them? The power clearly was moved to the power key. And look at the CapsLock key. Am I imagining things or there is something on the right side of it. Could it be a LED? Reminds me of the old times when I had an Amiga. All Amigas had the CapsLock LED in the key itself.

I would like to have the Bluetooth LED somewhere, if the T400s has Bluetooth.

yak wrote: But did they really just remove them? The power clearly was moved to the power key. And look at the CapsLock key. Am I imagining things or there is something on the right side of it. Could it be a LED?

Very well spotted. It indeed seems like the capsLock LED is now on the key itself. I wonder if they did something similar with the numlock and bluetooth LEDs.

Also note the new Fn+F6 symbol.

Overall, I'm pretty impressed. I wonder if the other Thinkpads will be affected by these changes, too, or if they're just 'test driving' some changes with this model. Btw, this 'T series' reminds me more of the X300/301 than of the other Ts.

frankausmtank wrote:I wonder if they did something similar with the numlock and bluetooth LEDs.

Yes but I wonder where the BT LED could be. Maybe it's supposed to be next to the WLAN but this particular model just doesn't have one.

Just spotted another thing: the radio switch is on the right side, to the front.

And here's a site with a picture of stacked T400 and T400s showing the thickness difference. Most of the savings come from the lid.
http://www.it.com.cn/notebook/news/cp/2 ... 39065.html

yak wrote:Most of the savings come from the lid.

Oh yes, there is no longer anything which deserves to protect.

I wonder if it's a SATA 150 or 300 ?

RELEASE PERIOD CONFIRMED!!!

Jay McBain, director, small and medium business, Americas, Lenovo, confirmed Tuesday June 16, 2009 that Lenovo's ThinkPad T400s will be released "toward the end of June." McBain was speaking at Everything Channel's Driving Profits With Emerging Technologies Virtual Tradeshow.

http://www.crn.com/mobile/217900177;jse ... 0CJUNN2JVN

t001 wrote:By the way, would anyone happen to know whether the burner is dual layer-capable, unlike the one in X301?

This information from Lenovo Singapore seems to indicate the optical drive is dual-layer.

eamonbriggs08 wrote:RELEASE PERIOD CONFIRMED!!!

Jay McBain, director, small and medium business, Americas, Lenovo, confirmed Tuesday June 16, 2009 that Lenovo's ThinkPad T400s will be released "toward the end of June." McBain was speaking at Everything Channel's Driving Profits With Emerging Technologies Virtual Tradeshow.

http://www.crn.com/mobile/217900177;jse ... 0CJUNN2JVN

A T 700s 17' with a SATA 300(SATA 600 !??) would be a dream

Thanks for the link. Wow, release must be imminent if an official Lenovo country site is listing it already, even if it may be a slip.

k3davis wrote:
This information from Lenovo Singapore seems to indicate the optical drive is dual-layer.