Thinkpads Forum

Why is there no discrete video chip available in the T400s?? I am ready to replace my T60p, and except for the Intel 4500HD, the T400s is exactly what I need. Why do they insist on shoving the Intel crap video option on their customers. My T60p is still functioning but if I had to replece it today my best option is a macbook pro, not my preference. The nvidia chipset is a usable video solution. I am no laptop designer but get rid of something,intel turbo cache seems useless enough to me, and give us a usable video option. i am no avid gamer but once in a while I like to play guildwars, pacific fighters or another flight sim. My T60p can run all of those. Hey heres a thought, use nvidia chipset if intel will not produce a decent video option. My 4 year old T60p runs 4 year old graphically intensive software better than the 4500HD on the T400 I was test driving on. I understand that for email and other light stuff the 4500Hd is good enough but If I am ready to pay $2000 for a laptop I should get better than good enough. Please do not make me look to sony, hp, panasonic or dell.

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If you're going to compare the T400s to the T60p, make sure to compare all aspects. You might notice that the more powerful a system tends to be, the more cooling is required to dissipate heat, the bulkier the system becomes, etc.

There's always a tradeoff, and as the previous poster already stated, something's gotta give...

I don't see anyone else offering a super thin notebook with a discrete card.

FredGarvin wrote:I don't see anyone else offering a super thin notebook with a discrete card.

And if they do, it is bound to be an overheating piece of junk with 2 hours battery life.

lawlen2 wrote:Why is there no discrete video chip available in the T400s?? I am ready to replace my T60p, and except for the Intel 4500HD, the T400s is exactly what I need. Why do they insist on shoving the Intel crap video option on their customers.

In all honesty, you are the one being unreasonable. The T400s is not aiming and never was aiming to be a replacement for the T60p. This is what the T61p and recently the W series is for. To a smaller extent, high-end T400/T500 "non-s" models. Rest assured they will continue to be available.

You sound like someone who's been driving a Toyota Camry, suddenly complaining that the new small Toyota Yaris does not give him the same engine power. Of course it doesn't, it's not supposed to! It's a completely different product with different features, aiming at different markets.

Yes, we would all like to have a 17" notebook weighing 1kg and 1inch thin, with 15 hours battery life, a quad-core CPU and a 295GTX video card. But as long as it remains technologically impossible, compromises have to be made.

I do not believe I am trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. The intel solution is just weak. I am confused as to why there is no better option than intel. At this point in the evolution of laptops, I would expect software that pushed the hardware four years ago to be easily handled by the cuyrrent hardware. i would happliy use the intel solution if were not so weak. i guess my real question is why lenovo has no ati or nvidia chipset solutions available. The answer, I guess, is intels power in the marketplace. Its just a little frustrating to see a tool that fits your needs in every way but one and that one is a continuing series of weak products. How can Intel produce the pentium m, core2 cpu solutions and then give us 950 and the 4500hd?

lawlen2 wrote:I do not believe I am trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

No person trying to fit a square peg in a round hole believes they are trying to do so.

lawlen2 wrote:The intel solution is just weak. I am confused as to why there is no better option than intel. At this point in the evolution of laptops, I would expect software that pushed the hardware four years ago to be easily handled by the cuyrrent hardware. i would happliy use the intel solution if were not so weak.

The Intel solution is perfectly fine for 90% (if not more) of the things people do with laptops. As for comparing it to 4-year old hardware, well let's see. 4 years ago I bought the T42 with Radeon 9600, which was almost top-of-the-line (definitely as far as Thinkpads were going). The FireGL T2 and Radeon X300 / FireGL V3200 available on T42p/T43/T43p respectively (which were the common at the time) were roughly on par with it.

I can assure you that the Intel GMA 4500MHD outperforms these 4-year old solutions. Don't believe me? Check here:
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Comparison ... 130.0.html

lawlen2 wrote:i guess my real question is why lenovo has no ati or nvidia chipset solutions available. The answer, I guess, is intels power in the marketplace.

How conveniently you just ignored everything that people wrote in response to your initial post. Your suggested answer is, of course, wrong, because even your question is based on wrong data. There are plenty of ATI and nVidia solutions available, and Lenovo does use them in its current products. Just not in the T400s/X200/X301.

lawlen2 wrote:Its just a little frustrating to see a tool that fits your needs in every way but one and that one is a continuing series of weak products. How can Intel produce the pentium m, core2 cpu solutions and then give us 950 and the 4500hd?

Intel's business is processors and chipsets, not high-end 3D graphics (so far at least, looks like they are aiming to change it with Larrabee). Just because a company does something and does it well, does not mean that they should do everything there is to do, and at the same extent of success.

You may as well have asked "how can Intel produce the Core2 CPU solutions and not be able to solve the hunger problems in Africa".

Intel's integrated GPUs aim at different goals altogether. Not powerful 3D graphics, but rather decent solutions at low cost, low power consumption (much better battery life than any of those nVidia/ATI chips), lower heat (which is crucial in a thin-n-light laptop). For these goals, they are simply better than nVidia/ATI.

And to finish this post, I'd just like to say that it's "just a little frustrating" (to borrow your phrasing, if I may), to write a thorough response to someone's question, only to have them completely ignore everything you say, because in reality, they did not ask the question to get an answer, but rather so that they can share their self-convictions, which they arrived to before they even asked. And I am sure I am not the only person in this thread feeling this way.

It was not my intent to frustrate anyone or waste their time. If I have done so, I am sorry. We agree that the 4500hd meets the need of 90% of the things we use our laptops to do. I was just wondering why there could not be an option for a better video solution. I thought that the advances in shrinking the circuitry of chips would have allowed for the option. I had these options in the same form factor when I purchased my T60p. I was not referencing the T43 series as I own a T60p with Firegl V5200. The 4500hd clearly exceeds the performance of the video solutions in the T43 series. Thanks for the link, it proved to be very informative. I have bookmarked it for future reference. I will wait for dr_st evaluation of the V5200 and the 4500hd. I have no conspiracy theory. My guess is based on Intel's position in the marketplace. It is an established fact that Intel is the major economic force in cpu's and integrated chipsets. You are correct Lenovo does use ATI and Nvidia solutions. I should have confine my comments to the Thinkpad T400s. I guess my real issue is the lack of a better option. I had video options with every Thinkpad purchase I have made or advised on.

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lawlen2 wrote:I had these options in the same form factor when I purchased my T60p.

The T60p and the T400s are not even nearly the same form factor. If I assume that you have the 14" T60p, then I can tell you that it weighs 2.35kg and is 26-31mm thick. The T400s weighs 1.8kg and is 21-25mm thick. How is that the same form factor?

Something current of the same form factor to your T60p would be the regular T400. Which is available with the ATI Radeon 3470, which is on par with your V5200, and even outperforms it slightly (check the site), and runs much cooler, also giving you an option for a longer battery life (much thanks to the option to switch to the integrated Intel card). This is what the shrinking of chips has gained you.

Your comparison of the T60p to the T400s is fundamentally flawed, because it is a completely different product line. Like qviri said, much closer to the X series in design and features. I event went as far as questioning the logic behind Lenovo's naming it T400s, and not X400, when they released it.

lawlen2 wrote:The intel solution is just weak.

It's quite fine for most business purposes.

If you need more graphics grunt, you just need to buy a different ThinkPad model.

Cheers,

Bill B.

dr_st wrote:No person trying to fit a square peg in a round hole believes they are trying to do so.

This made my morning lol.

I think the reason they are not offering a better graphics option has nothing to do with technology, but much more with marketing. Same reason they are not offering higher resolution screen on t400s and we probably won't know what the real reason is. There are, in general, much less options these days coming from Lenovo and much less innovation that there was from IBM, which is no surprise, most large companies seem to prefer to go with the flow with stable profit and minimized risks. HP currently has a small and slim laptop with dedicated graphics - HP ProBook 4310s. For most things though, including accelerated desktop video card in t400s is more than enough.

The HP isn't exactly what I'd call a slim and light notebook:
Lenovo T400s is a 14" laptop that weighs 3.9lbs.
HP ProBook 4310s is a 13.3" laptop that weighs 4.34lbs.

If you want to look at it as a marketing decision, then you're right. Sure, the technology exists to put dedicated graphics into the T400s, but they decided that their target market wouldn't be happy with the tradeoff; heavier, hotter, shorter battery life, maybe not as slim, etc. Begins to sound just like a T400, eh?

Lenovo does offer a more powerful version of the T400s. Its got switchable discreet/integrated graphics and a larger 2.5" hard drive. Its called the T400 and its available now.

Hey I was just looking to replace my x800xl on my desktop and took a peak at the notebook chips on amd's site. They list the 4300 and the 4500 as thin and light solutions. Would these chips be usable in the T400s?

Don't know what you mean by "usable". You cannot retrofit a T400s with one of them, that's for sure. Whether they theoretically could have used them? Perhaps.

I meant weither Lenovo could use a video thin and light chip in a different version of the T400s. By thin and light, I assume ati has reduce the TDP to allow for the proper cooling in the thin and light form factor. I understand that they could not use it on the existing motherboard design. I am in a holding pattern on replacing my T60p. Although if I was forced to purchase in the next three months I would have to suck it up and get a T400 or T400s. Both would be some form of compromise on what I want but I do not like what I am seeing elsewhere. Hey I saw a blur about intel's cappella solution that stated that the video would be on the processor. Anyone have any details on the capabilities of this video-cpu combination?

lawlen2 wrote:Hey I saw a blur about intel's cappella solution that stated that the video would be on the processor. Anyone have any details on the capabilities of this video-cpu combination?

The current iteration of Larabee is better than the X4500HD but not competitive at all with AMD's or Nvidia's current offerings.

Speaking as a gamer, Intel's "GPUs" are an aberration.

I don't use my T400s for games --> The X4500MHD fits my needs very nicely (good battery life, doesn't heat up like a toaster). No complaints.

Of course, "encouraging" them to continue to produce semi-pathetic "GPUs" is just wrong, but that's a different discussion altogether

Side note: I got "caught" in Intel's driver architecture switch as far as their Linux drivers are concerned... Ubuntu 9.04 (or anything that came out march-may 2009) is quasi-unusable with an intel graphics chipset, you're been warned (I'm using 9.10 alpha, works fine...)

~marc

Although X4500MHD is a serviceable graphics chip for business users of TP, it seems that Apple is using NVIDIA's 9400M to a great effect with a good graphics performance as well as power consumption as can be inferred from battery life of recent series of macbook/macbook pro.

Is there any chance the Nvidia 9400m will be incorporated in thinkpad T and/or X series? I think that some of us would go would go with better performing graphics option if there is no adverse reduction in the battery life. I would also think that adoption of non-Intel graphics chip will induce Intel to provide better performing integrated graphics chips in forthcoming Arrandale or mobile nehalem chips.

sanjuro wrote:Although X4500MHD is a serviceable graphics chip for business users of TP, it seems that Apple is using NVIDIA's 9400M to a great effect with a good graphics performance as well as power consumption as can be inferred from battery life of recent series of macbook/macbook pro.

Is there any chance the Nvidia 9400m will be incorporated in thinkpad T and/or X series? I think that some of us would go would go with better performing graphics option if there is no adverse reduction in the battery life.

The switchable graphics (between Intel integrated and ATI discrete GPUs) in the T400/T500/W500 achieve the same effect. I don't see what makes the 9400M special (it's essentially a 9100M integrated GPU and a dedicated 9300M). In any case, 9400M will never be in any Thinkpad, I'm sure, because by the time the next platform is released, there will be new solutions from all manufacturers. For whatever reasons, Lenovo found the ATI solution more appealing in the latest platform, but before that it was nVidia, and before that ATI. So really it can be anything, but I do expect a switchable graphics solution for the next platform as well.

I think that these solutions are missing from the T400s, because of the physical limitations, rather than battery life constraints. It's hard to provide a powerful GPU, and adequate cooling, and the other features people expect on Thinkpads, in such a small package. The X series never had them for this reason. For the same reason, for example, the T400s uses soldered CPUs (again just like the X series).

If the T400s had a 9400M chipset then it would be perfect (and maybe a better display).

I wish more manufacturers would use this chipset. Only Apple and Dell seem to use it. It seems to provide considerably better graphics performance than the Intel equivalent without any of the drawbacks of a discrete graphics chip. The disadvantage is that I think it may cost a bit more.

Some people seem to think the 9400M is a discrete chip, it isn't. It is an integrated chipset, i.e. a replacement for Intel's X4500MHD, and only produces a little more heat than the Intel one from what I have read.

I guessing the real reason is more to do with company politics and also you would lose the Centrino branding which may matter to some customers.

It is a shame AMD's processors are not quite up to Intel's processors as AMD produce some great integrated chipsets.

SZQ wrote:If the T400s had a 9400M chipset then it would be perfect..

Based on my personal experiences with the supplier of that chipset, it would be a disaster!

Cheers,

Bill B.

bill bolton wrote:

SZQ wrote:If the T400s had a 9400M chipset then it would be perfect..

Based on my personal experiences with the supplier of that chipset, it would be a disaster!

Cheers,

Bill B.

What's wrong with the 9400M if you don't mind me asking?

I am still deciding on what laptop to buy so any info would be useful. Thanks.

Hi, has anyone heard any rumours or news when the T400 series might get the newer ATI Mobility 4xxx video chips?

lawlen2 wrote:Hi, has anyone heard any rumours or news when the T400 series might get the newer ATI Mobility 4xxx video chips?

Probably when the Calpella platform is released. Unless Lenovo decides to go with an nVidia solution this time.

Both the 4500MHD and 9400M perform like crap compared to a seperate PCI-Express graphics card. These days you can build a gaming PC for less than 500$, which has multitudes better performance, and actually makes it worthwhile to spend your time playing games. Use the right tool for the right job. Intels integrated GPUs are certainly enough for normal tasks, email/internet/movies/Aero etc.

9400m may be flawed in someways but it performs better than current gen intel integrated chips. Some of us are not interested in accelerated graphics for gaming on T or X series. Nothing wrong with wanting a better graphics performance compared to the intel's integrated graphics without heat and power consumption issues. With intel chips playback of action/cgi graphics can show lags and jaggedness. Lenovo plans to offer S12 with nvidia's ion chipset which includes 9400m chip. So there really isn't any technical reason T or X cannot have 9400m. Politics may be a different matter.

sanjuro wrote:With intel chips playback of action/cga graphics can show lags and jaggedness.

CGA? What do you mean.

Even far weaker chips that the 4500MHD handle any 2D playback just fine. And have done so for years now.