Disappointed with the T410...

[Thinkpodder]

Okay, in retrospect, I've decided this is a pointless rant caused by a long week of crummy weather. You may disregard my griping below and I humbly beg your indulgence...


No, I don't have one yet.

But I'm disappointed that I see no reason to upgrade from my T400 to a T410. The main gains would be processor and video, as I have already tricked out the memory and hard drive on my T400. But I'm really interested in raw processing speed.

I don't play games; I mainly run Matlab, emacs, and Latex. (If you don't know what the last two are, think of them as weapons from a more elegant age.) That's not to say I don't use other software, e.g., I run Photoshop CS4 fairly often, but if I need serious visualization, I'll use the 30" monitor on my 32GB, 8 core Xenon Dell.

But I'd love to get Matlab faster on my laptop and moving from a 2.8GHz Core2 Duo (T400) to a 2.66GHz Core i7-620M (T410) processor isn't much bang for the buck. The benchmarks I've seen (I can dig up the links or you can find them via Google) show such small improvements between the two that I'm not tempted. The Core i7 really benefits from software written to take advantage of it, and that's in short supply.

Anyone feeling similarly? Anyone know when the faster Core i7 models will be released?

[dr_st]

Why is that surprising?

The performance gaps between every two consecutive generations are almost always marginal.

There is never any "bang for the buck" in upgrading generation X to generation X+1.

[ThinkRob]

There is never any "bang for the buck" in upgrading generation X to generation X+1.

That's almost always correct, but I can think of two exceptions to this rule.

The first would be the X40->X41 step.

The second would be the X60->X61 transition. That took the X6x series from 32-bit to 64-bit (barring a few rare C2D X60s), dropped core temps dramatically as well as provided other cooling-related improvements (e.g. palmrest heat.)

[dr_st]

If anything, the X41->X60 (T43->T60) is the only big transition in recent years, since we moved from single cores to dual cores all across the board, which improved performance by up to 100% in apps capable of utilizing multiple threads well, and increased general snappiness of the system.

Note that I was talking about performance only. Performance differences between Core Duo and Core 2 Duo, clock for clock, is barely 15%, and as you mentioned, the latest X60 units already came with Core 2 Duos. X60->X61 performance difference is not noticeable in comparable configurations (if anything upping the RAM limit from 3GB to 8GB can be much more serious than CPU differences).

Newer generations do sometimes bring some advantages in features in design, which can make the upgrade worthwhile, regardless of performance, but the original poster seems to be interested only in more performance, hence my reply.

As a side note, there were no improvements regarding palmrest heat in X61. I can testify to that, since my wife has repeatedly expressed her dissatisfaction with the hot palmrest on her X61. It is said that some of them, the ones with WWAN and the second fan suffer less from the problem, but the general design of the machine is just as bad in that sense.

[Thinkpodder]

Had they released a 3.06GHz Core i7 model, I would have already ordered one.

And I'd say my move from a T60P (Core Duo) to T400 (Core2 Duo and backlit LCD) was a significant improvement in everything but aspect ratio. While I miss my 4:3 screen enormously, the T400 has an absolutely gorgeous, bright display and runs cooler and faster. (I posted benchmarks under another account here at the time...) Outside of losing 4:3, upgrading was an easy decision.

Anyway, I'll wait on the T410 until they put a better Core i7 in it.

[Eudoxus]

But that is the point. In moving from T60p to T400 you skipped one generation (T61) and that is why the difference is more telling. I think when the next generation of T series will be released in one or two years there will be similar kick in moving from T400 to the latest one IMHO.
As a matter of fact I think that we are spoiled in a way. As far as i am concerned it would be enough if Lenovo would releas new ThinkPads in every 4 or 5 (or even more) years. But the sad truth is that no company can allow that nowadays as everybody has to participate in the rat race for consumer's money. And that is why some people have inadequate expectations fro every new product.

[Thinkpodder]

You're right. There was a year between the T60P and the T61, and there was also a year between the T400 and T410. But given the 3.06 GHz Core i7 is already available, the situation here seems somewhat different. I suspect (i.e., hope) Lenovo will be making this an option in the near future, which would make this x+1 increment a reasonable upgrade.

[bill bolton]

there was also a year between the T400 and T410.

More than a year, as I've had a T400 for a year and it had been out for a while (6-12 months) before a deal came along that matched my buying price point.

Cheers,

Bill B.

[Vempele]

But given the 3.06 GHz Core i7 is already available, the situation here seems somewhat different.

Since when? It's not on processorfinder.intel.com , unlike the recently released processors found in current Thinkpads.

[Thinkpodder]

More than a year, as I've had a T400 for a year and it had been out for a while (6-12 months) before a deal came along that matched my buying price point.

Cheers,

Bill B.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was rounding down. I got my T400 on September 23, 2008.

[Thinkpodder]

Since when? It's not on processorfinder.intel.com , unlike the recently released processors found in current Thinkpads.

Yup, you're right; only the desktop versions of the faster i7's are available. My mistake, but it's not going to make me any less grumpy.

I absolutely insist on the inalienable right to complain that a new Thinkpad model line doesn't meet my needs.

[ThinkRob]

Note that I was talking about performance only. Performance differences between Core Duo and Core 2 Duo, clock for clock, is barely 15%, and as you mentioned, the latest X60 units already came with Core 2 Duos.

I'd count 15% as a pretty big improvement, and the addition of 64-bit as an equally big step.

The X60->X61 transition also brought about three other changes:

1) Switch to the Santa Rosa chipset.

2) Maximum clock speed increased from 2.0GHz to 2.5GHz. That's a 25% increase in clockspeed which -- if the 15% figure and my math is correct -- corresponds to a 43.75% increase in performance. (And that's assuming that you could find one of the very rare 2.0GHz Core 2 Duo X60s...)

3) Switch from GMA 950 to X3100. That's also a big boost performance-wise (although it's still quite a poor GPU compared to a dedicated card).

All in all, I'd say that the X60->X61 transition was responsible for quite a big improvement in performance, but that's just my opinion.

As a side note, there were no improvements regarding palmrest heat in X61. I can testify to that, since my wife has repeatedly expressed her dissatisfaction with the hot palmrest on her X61. It is said that some of them, the ones with WWAN and the second fan suffer less from the problem, but the general design of the machine is just as bad in that sense.

Actually, the design of the machine did change. The X61(s) shipped with heat shielding beneath the palmrest opposite the cards, whereas most (if not all) X60s simply have the palmrest plastic. Anecdotal evidence suggests that this made a difference (as does the extra fan), although I cannot comment on your specific experiences. I can say that my X60s and X61s have differences in their build in this regard, and that even with the same WiFi card there is a palpable difference in palmrest temperatures.

[dr_st]

15% improvement is not something you will notice in anything outside benchmarks, and we are talking about the CPU only. Overall system performance improvement is probably even smaller. Such a performance difference is expected between any two generations, certainly 60-->61 series is not exceptional here. Yes, you may expect better from top-of-the-line to top-of-the-line comparison, but on average, that's the difference.

BTW, the 60 series in itself can count for two generations (Core Duo, Core 2 Duo), and 61 as well (Merom, Penryn). So it's almost 3 generations between the first and the last, which is where you would expect to get that 40-50% CPU speed difference...

[ThinkRob]

15% improvement is not something you will notice in anything outside benchmarks, and we are talking about the CPU only. Overall system performance improvement is probably even smaller. Such a performance difference is expected between any two generations, certainly 60-->61 series is not exceptional here. Yes, you may expect better from top-of-the-line to top-of-the-line comparison, but on average, that's the difference.

I'd dispute the "won't notice 15%". That depends heavily on what you do. I certainly do notice it, but then again a lot of my work is computationally intensive (software development). Same for the 32->64 performance -- more registers make a big difference for some things. Yes, if you're never loading the CPU (such as if you're just surfing and doing some work with an office suite) you probably won't notice the performance difference, but if you actually start pushing the machine I suspect you will.

BTW, the 60 series in itself can count for two generations (Core Duo, Core 2 Duo), and 61 as well (Merom, Penryn). So it's almost 3 generations between the first and the last, which is where you would expect to get that 40-50% CPU speed difference...

That's part of the reason that I stated that the X60->X61 transition was a big leap, but I definitely see your point.

[proaudioguy]

I'd dispute the "won't notice 15%". That depends heavily on what you do. I certainly do notice it, but then again a lot of my work is computationally intensive (software development). Same for the 32->64 performance -- more registers make a big difference for some things. Yes, if you're never loading the CPU (such as if you're just surfing and doing some work with an office suite) you probably won't notice the performance difference, but if you actually start pushing the machine I suspect you will..

Yea but who would push an X series machine to the limit by using it for software dev. Anyone into that kind of work would use a desktop for dev and perhaps test on a laptop. I work for a small software company as a freelancer. They are using a dual quad core Mac Pro for dev. They run VMs to test with. The software is cross platform.

[zhenya]

Had they released a 3.06GHz Core i7 model, I would have already ordered one.

And I'd say my move from a T60P (Core Duo) to T400 (Core2 Duo and backlit LCD) was a significant improvement in everything but aspect ratio. While I miss my 4:3 screen enormously, the T400 has an absolutely gorgeous, bright display and runs cooler and faster. (I posted benchmarks under another account here at the time...) Outside of losing 4:3, upgrading was an easy decision.

Anyway, I'll wait on the T410 until they put a better Core i7 in it.

The T60p was available with the Core2Duo, making the difference between it and the new T410 models even narrower. I know; among the computers I am currently looking to replace as per our 3 year cycle is a T60p with a T7600 in it. There are some nice upgrades to the new machines, but I don't expect it to be significantly faster than this 3+ year old model.

[gzlatin]

I'm in the market to buy a new laptop. I never owned a Thinkpad or any Lenovo product but I happened to notice the new T410 when I was doing my research and I really love everything that it has to offer. I also like the fact that it comes with an Core i5 chip although currently I wouldn't really be using the laptop for anything super intensive.

I noticed this deal come out today on the T400s http://www.edealinfo.com/deals/dealinfo ... &seqno=050 and I don't know if I should go for the T400 or hold out for the T410. It seems like essentially i'd just be holding out for the i5 chip vs the core 2 duo and i'm not sure if it's worth paying more (and waiting longer since it seems like the T410's aren't shipping until Feb/March). Are there any other major differences that i'm not aware of?

Also, the T410 doesn't even have any reviews out yet so I'm not sure if i'm even waiting for something better.

[zhenya]

The deal you link to is for a T400s, which is a different class machine than the T410. The T410s is also in production, although it has temporarily been removed from Lenovo's website due to production problems.

There are a number of other small upgrades in the new T410 lineup (see other threads in this forum for details). Whether it is worth the additional money you'll have to decide for yourself. Note that the Core2Duo processors have not evolved radically in 3 1/2 years, so with an older model, you are buying end of life tech, but whether that will matter to you or not is questionable.

[dsvochak]

Paraphrasing slightly, I think "I absolutely insist on the inalienable right to complain that a new Thinkpad model line doesn't meet my wants" should be the name of a new discussion area on this forum.