T410 First Impressions

[Navck]

Just received my T410 last night, in comparison to my 15" T43 (2687-DDU) I believe the T410 is a massive improvement;
1. I own a Model M and I can say that the keyboard on the T410 is an improvement over the keyboard on my T43. The keys are much more solid and display less wiggling if I play with them, they have even better tactile feedback with a firm and solid resistance that gives away cleanly. I believe the keyboard is firmer as well. I have not gotten used to the superginormous Escape and Delete keys during touch typing but it’ll be a fast process. I do not like the inclusion of the “menu” key on the right, the Windows key is OK but I would rather have it on the right (I bind the right alt on the T43 as WinKey) replacing the menu key and having the standard sized Ctrl and Alt keys. No longer a problem, fixed by using SharpKeys to bind the right alt and context menu key as WinKey and the WinKey as alt.
1a. The lid is firm and solid as the lid of the T43. Applying finger pressure to the lid does nothing to the LCD just like the T43. I still can cause the LCDs on other laptops to distort at the pressures I’m applying.
1b. If I thought the T43 was a brick, then the T410 must be high hardness armor steel. This thing is as solid if not rivaling the T43; it is exceptionally rigid and does not show any signs of being built inferiorly.
2. The screen is exceptionally bright in comparison to the Flexview screen on the T43, color accuracy is definitely lower compared to the CRT+Flexview screens. However this screen is reasonably competitive in having a pretty wide viewing angle compared to other screens (Whatever form of mystery meat that Dell put in the Latitude D600).
3. I have well preserved hearing and I would say that the T410's fan can sometimes trick me into believing that it isn't running. From what I experienced, the harddrive (Some Hitachi 60GB) in my T43 is louder while idling, the 320GB 7200RPM Hitachi drive in my T410 is exceptionally silent in comparison. Additionally the fan of the T43 is louder at any level than the T410's fan set at 7.
4. I have not installed any of my games onto the T410 but I can report in on that later.
5. Love all the ports on the T410, except for the Expresscard 34 slot which uses a small filler thing (Well constructed compared to solid plastic inserts, has a hexagontal pattern in the middle) instead of the spring loaded door found in the T43.
6. Touchpad is very different from the T43. I mainly use the Trackpoint but the Touchpad on this is very nice.
7. Thinklight is brighter than previous generations.

22-28 second cold boot time (Remove unneeded services, delayed startup, defrag)
I don’t think I can comment on Win7-32 too much. I haven’t made it feel like “home” from WinXP Pro with theme customization yet. Otherwise I can say that on the T410 that the response is snappy as my desktop (i7 system, 3GB ram, 8800GTX, 10k RPM system HDD, 3 HDDs, etc). So far most of the software I have does run on Win7. Battery life is awesome compared to the T43, having 59% battery and the meter reading consistently at 4 hours 20-50 minutes over a half hour period.


I will be updating this topic continually for updates on the T410, ask away about any questions you have.


Switchable graphics: The hardware is there but it seems Lenovo has not implemented the software yet. I am going to hope that through the release of the T410s that they will also implement support into the T510 and other Thinkpads as well. It seems that they just need cooperation from Intel and nVidia from drivers (Just like they needed it from Intel and AMD/ATi from the T400) and implementation in the power manager or small executable that triggers the change.


Also access communications and power manager is slower than the older versions to load…


2516-CTO
Win 7-32
i7-620m
2GB DDR3 (Upgrading by another 2GB stick, using PAE on 32 bit OS)
320GB 7200RPM Hitachi Travelstar 7k500
NVS3100m (“Mystery Meat”)
9 cell battery

[Eudoxus]

Sounds like a nice machine after all.
I would recommend you to get rid of the access connections. This piece of software has become obselete on Windows 7 as the native windows app is good enough for everyday purposes.

[dr_st]

For most everyday purposes the one in WinXP is already good enough...

[Navck]

Does removing AC remove the radio controls to Bluetooth/etc, or do those run as their own thing?

[yak]

Does removing AC remove the radio controls to Bluetooth/etc, or do those run as their own thing?

Youn mean the Fn+F5 window? No, that's separate.

You seem to get exceptionally good battery life compared to other reviews. What were the conditions?

About switchable graphics, we can't be sure that the hardware is there. There definitely is a dedicated GPU and an integrated one in the CPU but we don't know if the logic combining both is in place.

[Navck]

Screen brightness was set to 7, I was uninstalling some of the preinstalled junk during that time while running a disk defrag pass with the default defragger. Wasn't plugged in and had the processor to adaptive. I think the biggest reason for bad battery life is the GPU autoclocking to full speed from Aero doing its thing.

Just for fun, I just unplugged the power cable while I write this post, screen brightness at 7 and battery is about 99%, power manager thinks I have between 4 minutes 53 minutes to 5 hours remaining but it doesn't seem like its going to decide on going lower or higher right now.

The other thing is that I stripped tons of services from 7 that I don't use, as well as delaying the start of hours. Power manager thinks I can get 5 hours 20 minutes now. Just a guess but I think turning some of the shiny effects off in Aero would increase battery life several fold.

Edit: Speaking of that as I finished this post, battery status is still at 99%.
Edit 2: When I was plugging the AC adapter back, PM thinks I have 5 hours 40 minutes...

Edit3: Yeah the GPU is not underclocking aggressively, going to full speed from just simple Aero effects. I can't seem to get Rivatuner to control it either...
Edit 4: NVS3100m idles at (Core Shaders Memory) 135/270/135, but the moment you have any transparency/alt tab/"shiny" features it kicks up to 606/1468/810 MHz and stays there for a while.

[yak]

Sounds great. I've set my T60 with Windows 7 to turn off Aero when running on battery a long time ago.

[tweakfreak1988]

Can you go into the BIOS and specify which video adapter you want to use on boot up? I know I could do that w/ my T400.

[Eudoxus]

Sounds great. I've set my T60 with Windows 7 to turn off Aero when running on battery a long time ago.

How did you manage that?

[Navck]

I don't think Lenovo has implemented support for switchable graphics on the software side, but I am fairly confident that the Tx10(s) will all have the hardware capability for it (This is just a guess, seeing the T510 has the capability to do it and it was released roughly on the same timeframe)

Interesting thing about the lid of the T410, from all the people over at NBR talking about the doom of the CF reinforced lid... I noticed that it has the same metallic sparkles as the lid of my T43, the blue/silvery pieces of metal within the rubber. I have to assume this implies that the lid construction is going to be roughly similar to the T4x series with engineering improvements. The lid is definitely more than just ABS plastic from the R series (I've worked with a R51).

[yak]

Sounds great. I've set my T60 with Windows 7 to turn off Aero when running on battery a long time ago.

How did you manage that?

While on Power Saver and the AC disconnected, disable transparency in the Personalization window, then close it. Then reconnect the AC and enable transparency in Personalization, then close it again. The setting should stick.

[Eudoxus]

Thanks, yak! I'll try that.

[yak]

Yes, it's a good thing because you're not disabling Aero per se, just the fancy transparency effects which cause the GPU to draw more power. The switch is immediate and the interface looks a lot better than Aero-Basic which is awful.

[san40k]

Very encouraging and through review, thank you! I also have a flexview t43 (that I love) and the review helps to spend money faster on the upgrade

[Harryc]

Many posts were split off into a new thread - "SSD Discussion"
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 94#p557594

Keep this discussion to the T410 please.

[ducky2802]

I just got my hands on a T410. Its massive... seriously, its a thick computer, a night and day difference from a T60--its akin to an R60. Granted, it does have great specs and all, but theres no mistaking its heft and dimensions when alongside the older 14" T series. Definately going to have to check out a T410s.

[Navck]

Dealing with LCD issues:
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/448/dsc2132np.jpg
http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/7117/dsc2131n.jpg

Support in Atlanta Georgia does not want to help me with this issue...
Bummer too, this panel has no dead pixels either.

Edit: Maybe not, lets see if I can get a few things cleared up like "not pressure damage" and see how they respond.

THIS POST IS OUTDATED, SEE BELOW

[jrcade]

Navck,

Keep us posted on anything else you wish to share or find out about experiences with your build. I am about to order a T410 for work (have had a T43/p for 5 yrs). Will include same hardware as you listed and plan to dock it with Mini Plus Series 3 and run two Dell 22" HD monitors through DVI-D.

Two questions:
1) So you think the nvdia card isn't having that drastic of an effect on the battery life?
2) Any more news on switchable graphics software for this machine?

Thanks!

[Navck]

NVS3100/FX 880m/Mystery Meat - "Physically" capable of doing switchable graphics.
All we need is that everything on the hardware end is implemented and driver magic. I am hoping nVidia will release drivers along the time the T410s is released ("Has switchable graphics")

Got a tech coming out on friday to check and/or replace the LCD!

The T410 did great yesterday, I had it plugged into an (switched off) outlet for two hours and "didn't notice"... Figured out that something was funky after going to maximum performance to keep the i7 from throttling down too aggressively and finally (After two hours..) noticed that the outlet was operated by a switch and flipped it on, lo and behold, I had about 4-5 hours left with roughly a mid 70% charge. Mind you I killed a bunch of services that I don't use. However I was doing some MP3 reencoding and the i7 got to 73C in my lap. I am happy to report that I do not have any third degree burns and that the T410's heat output was like a really warm hand at most on my legs. However, the exhaust air was... Quite hot.

I'll report back later, I need to leave in a few minutes.

[Navck]

LCD replaced, the current one seems to be even better than the first (Guess the air bubbles wasn't the only problem.)
Total screws removed by onsite tech: 4 (Frame) + 2 (LCD "Holder", same as frame screws in length and type) + 4 (LCD "holder")
Time taken: 15 minutes

Steps involved: Tech peeled off the stickers to expose the 4 screws above the hinge, removed those, slowly pried the bezel frame off, removed two more screws on the LCD "holder" assembly (Two metal rails), peeled the LCD connector off (Sticker holds a really flat cable in place), pulled the LCD and holder out, removed four screws from the holder.
5 minutes in
Removed the first rail, checked orientation and placed it on the new LCD, repeated for other rail, dropped LCD assembly in. Two more screws, assembly is secured at the top, frame is snapped back on one part a time, four screws in, plastic stickers above hinges placed back, boxes old LCD, done.

Current LCD displays superior color qualities compared to the last one, I guess the last LCD had a little more issues than the current one.

Edit: For anyone who wants to know about the lid

There seems to be a thin sheet of foil separating the back of the LCD (Which also has a few rubber pads(Or as far as I can tell) on it. The lid was as rigid as ever with the finger test when the LCD was removed. It seems that the LCD's metal frame does not provide the rigidity on the lid's surface. It may or may not contribute a little to the torsion resistance of the whole assembly but I'm unsure. As far as I can tell, the lid as strong as ever to any nay sayers.

I also cannot find any palm rest creaking/flex, the T410 seems to be better built than the T43 in that sense. I welcome the Expresscard 34 filler over the PCMCIA/Expresscard door on the T43, which has popped off so many times its unfunny. (And the plastic axle that the spring sits on has snapped off.) However it would of been nice if they made the Expresscard filler even more rigid (For a sub-dollar part, heh.) and had part of the inside (Maybe a single part of the hexagon lattice) as a day glow yellow/orange so one can find it in their black bags and crowded desks when they put it aside.

Double edit: Woah, for anyone with a T410 and Win7, dccw.exe (Display color calibration) Mess with that and your display will look a lot less blue.

[Norway Pad]

Thanks for a great review. I have a T43 Flexwiev now, so we seem to have the same preference. I have read a lot about the 410, and even though my major plan is to "upgrade" to a T60, I still keep playing with the thought of buying a brand new one.

Just a quick question: I have so far not managed to find out if the 4xx/5xx has a glossy screen. I see that the 510 comes with an "anti glare" option, but that is not listed on the 410. How is the screen compared to what you had on your T43? Both surface and viewing angles?

Do I have to mention that I don't like glossy screens?

[dr_st]

None of the T series have glossy screens.

[Norway Pad]

Thanks. I was concerned that the newest ones had, and that I had to get one with the Anti-Glare option to avoid it.

[viveksingh]

Thanks for the great review on T410, I was a bit concerned about rigidness of the lid after Lenovo introduced several changes to it.

I have a rather trivial query to ask, which is about the absence of "AC adapter LED indicator". Do you really miss the LED indicator or it is just fine provided the revamped and impressive evolution of the Txx series ThinkPad?

[Navck]

FYI: The wireless power indicator no longer blinks on data transfer, you get a solid on instead.


On the AC main indicator, call me crazy but I wished Lenovo had more LED indicator status.
Battery status, red-yellow-green. Red Blinking Rapid < 10%, Red < 10-25%, "Orange" (Red-Yellow) > 25-50%, Yellow-Green 50-75%, Green > 75%. Charging indicated by slow blink of those to indicate state of charge and charging.
Seperate bluetooth / Cellular LED indicators. Blinking for data transfer.
Independent capslock indicator on the bezel.
Independent numlock indicator on the bezel instead of OSD.
And battery, mains indicator, all wireless radios LEDs visible on lid side as well. All of them should have options in the BIOS to be disabled or mode changed (Simple battery indicator instead of the multicolor mix. Obviously some would find this annoying and rather would have a simplier blinking indicator versus color coding.)

However when you are trying to cut cents off every Thinkpad without compromising quality, one of the things that'll go first will most likely be the LED indicators.

[Navck]

Just for fun, I speced three systems from Apple, HP and Dell to similar levels as my T410:
The HP Elitebook is the closest system "hardware" wise.
Irony, the Macbook Pro costs less than the HP and Dell business options. And I thought Apple charged a premium too...

Reference System, Thinkpad T410 Elite
i7-620m
2GB RAM
14" WXGA+ LED screen
NVS3100m/Quadro FX880m/NVIDIA Mystery Meat Lunch Special

7.2k RPM HDD / Hitachi offering
DVD Multiburner

Thinklight (Woah, relieves eye strain, works with microfiber cloth over keyboard, great for a lamp when reading a paper on the keyboard. Nice. Don't need backlit keyboard.)
Fingerprint reader standard
Webcam / Microphone Standard

Intel 6300
Gobi 3G 2000
Bluetooth Standard
56k Modem Standard

Win7 Ultimate 32
3 year onsite warranty w/ priority support
~1.8k WITH taxes and shipping AND ultraslim adapter AND trackpoint caps!
See screenshot (WARNING! 100kb+!)
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/1059/t410price.jpg
Added 2GB of RAM for 40 dollars

======

Macbook Pro, 15" Model
2.66GHz C2D
4GB RAM standard
15" Antiglare Display
NVIDIA 9400M and 9600M GT

320GB 7.2k RPM HDD
DVD writable?

Backlit Keyboard Standard

OS X Snow Leopard

Don't know Apple's standard warranty plan.
~ 2,100USD pre taxes/shipping

======

Dell Latitude M2400 (14.1")
3.06GHz T9900 C2D
2GB GB DDR2
Quadro FX370m 256MB
14.1" Ultrasharp WXGA+ LED display

320GB 7.2k RPM HDD / Freefall sensor (WD Scorpio Black?)
DVD Writer (Standard is reader only?)

9 cell battery
Intel 5300 Wireless Adapter
Dell Bluetooth 370
Gobi 2 Broadband option
Internal (56k) modem option (Come on!)

Backlit keyboard option
Fingerprint reader option
Webcam / Microphone option

Win7 Ultimate 32
Intel vPro
3 Year ProSupport / NBD Onsite
~2350USD pre taxes/shipping

======

HP Elitebook 8440p
i7-620m
2GB RAM standard
14.0 LED Antiglare / 1600x900 (Or you can have an icky 1366x768 display...)
NVS3100m/Quadro FX880m/NVIDIA Mystery Meat Lunch Special

320GB 7.2kRPM HDD
DVD Writer, Lightscribe

Bluetooth option
Intel 6300 Wireless Adapter
56k Modem
Gobi Broadband

Fingerprint Sensor
3 year Warranty with Onsite
Win7 Professional 32
~2300 pre taxes/shipping

[yshalabi]

How is the size? Is it too bulky?

If you have seen a T410s how is the size difference?

[Navck]

Please see my post in:
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=85458
For the sizes, and no it is not bulky, I have seen a T400s.

[Navck]

Did someone say "two handed release for the Ultrabay and needing to flip the T410 over"?
Not true, I made a demo video just to prove this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRv4N35QLbo

[crashnburn]

How did you enable the PAE? I am thinking of doing the same for WinXP 32bit for Now.. Until I got Win7/64...

I am wondering about going back to an older Access Connections.

Just received my T410 last night, in comparison to my 15" T43 (2687-DDU) I believe the T410 is a massive improvement;
1. I own a Model M and I can say that the keyboard on the T410 is an improvement over the keyboard on my T43. The keys are much more solid and display less wiggling if I play with them, they have even better tactile feedback with a firm and solid resistance that gives away cleanly. I believe the keyboard is firmer as well. I have not gotten used to the superginormous Escape and Delete keys during touch typing but it’ll be a fast process. I do not like the inclusion of the “menu” key on the right, the Windows key is OK but I would rather have it on the right (I bind the right alt on the T43 as WinKey) replacing the menu key and having the standard sized Ctrl and Alt keys. No longer a problem, fixed by using SharpKeys to bind the right alt and context menu key as WinKey and the WinKey as alt.
1a. The lid is firm and solid as the lid of the T43. Applying finger pressure to the lid does nothing to the LCD just like the T43. I still can cause the LCDs on other laptops to distort at the pressures I’m applying.
1b. If I thought the T43 was a brick, then the T410 must be high hardness armor steel. This thing is as solid if not rivaling the T43; it is exceptionally rigid and does not show any signs of being built inferiorly.
2. The screen is exceptionally bright in comparison to the Flexview screen on the T43, color accuracy is definitely lower compared to the CRT+Flexview screens. However this screen is reasonably competitive in having a pretty wide viewing angle compared to other screens (Whatever form of mystery meat that Dell put in the Latitude D600).
3. I have well preserved hearing and I would say that the T410's fan can sometimes trick me into believing that it isn't running. From what I experienced, the harddrive (Some Hitachi 60GB) in my T43 is louder while idling, the 320GB 7200RPM Hitachi drive in my T410 is exceptionally silent in comparison. Additionally the fan of the T43 is louder at any level than the T410's fan set at 7.
4. I have not installed any of my games onto the T410 but I can report in on that later.
5. Love all the ports on the T410, except for the Expresscard 34 slot which uses a small filler thing (Well constructed compared to solid plastic inserts, has a hexagontal pattern in the middle) instead of the spring loaded door found in the T43.
6. Touchpad is very different from the T43. I mainly use the Trackpoint but the Touchpad on this is very nice.
7. Thinklight is brighter than previous generations.

22-28 second cold boot time (Remove unneeded services, delayed startup, defrag)
I don’t think I can comment on Win7-32 too much. I haven’t made it feel like “home” from WinXP Pro with theme customization yet. Otherwise I can say that on the T410 that the response is snappy as my desktop (i7 system, 3GB ram, 8800GTX, 10k RPM system HDD, 3 HDDs, etc). So far most of the software I have does run on Win7. Battery life is awesome compared to the T43, having 59% battery and the meter reading consistently at 4 hours 20-50 minutes over a half hour period.


I will be updating this topic continually for updates on the T410, ask away about any questions you have.


Switchable graphics: The hardware is there but it seems Lenovo has not implemented the software yet. I am going to hope that through the release of the T410s that they will also implement support into the T510 and other Thinkpads as well. It seems that they just need cooperation from Intel and nVidia from drivers (Just like they needed it from Intel and AMD/ATi from the T400) and implementation in the power manager or small executable that triggers the change.


Also access communications and power manager is slower than the older versions to load…


2516-CTO
Win 7-32
i7-620m
2GB DDR3 (Upgrading by another 2GB stick, using PAE on 32 bit OS)
320GB 7200RPM Hitachi Travelstar 7k500
NVS3100m (“Mystery Meat”)
9 cell battery