Thinkpads Forum

I was about to pull the trigger on a basic T400 on the Lenovo SPP site for around $750, but today they have disappeared. The T410 is out of the question for me (inferior design, lacking the lid rollcage & only LED screens), as I want to stick to a CCFL screen and XP downgrade, and keep the cost as low as possible. Do you think there is any chance that the T400 will be back as an option or should I try to buy a top-seller from an online retailer while they still have some in stock?

Thanks

I have a friend with a T400, he trusts that the T410 is a great machine. We both happen to own T43s, mine is a 15" T43 and I will tell you the lid is a great design on the T410, roll cage or not. The engineers really have done a great job on making it extremely durable with the materials they were given, magnesium alloy fibers or not. The LED screen on the T410 is great but can't hold a claim to the T43's Flexview screen and how it has beautiful viewing angles are. There is however, one thing it obliterates the Flexview screen in, which would be sunlight visibility. I can practically stand outside in the sun and see this thing clear as day, the LEDs will dim to 50% brightness for probably 50,000 hours as long as they are properly cooled while running at full power (I practically don't need to run the screen at more than 8-10/15 because this thing is so [censored] bright.)

I would tell you to consider finding someone with a T400 and T410 or finding each machine independently and see if the T410 is "really" that inferior. Don't let your emotions get in the way when people say things about the T410 or any "newer" Thinkpad.

Thanks for the encouraging thoughts. I travel a lot, and would feel "safer" knowing that the lid cover is not just plastic, even if I take good care of my laptop otherwise.

The LED screen worries me because there have been reports of eye strain caused by the invisible flicker Lenovo's inferior-quality LED screen produce when brightness is less than 100%. Of course, the CCFLs screens are not very good quality in terms of contrast, brightness and so on, but at least the do not seem to cause eye strain and related headache, which is important to me as I spend long hours with my laptop every day

You should be glad it's out of production as the the T400 is a lousy low quality notebook.

The CCFL screens are are worst i ever seen, my screen has alot of clouding now after 6 months, it wasn't like that new and i have been very carefull with my notebook, the motherboard went as well, i have three cracks in the chassi due to the low quality materials they use.

...and i don't beleive the T410 will be any better.

Eye strain from the T410 isn't caused by the screen alone, its contrast. The T43's Flexview screen has a wide angle of illumination, it practiaclly lights the keyboard up. The T410's LED screen is much more narrow in the viewing angle and angle of illumination. When I work in the dark with the T410's screen at 2-3/15, I find that turning the Thinklight on to give contrast to the bezel and chassis relieves me of eye strain. As far as I can tell, the eyestrain is caused by the very low contrast of the environment and not the screen.

On the lid construction, as far as I can tell it is the same rubberized lid with metallic sparkles on the outside, the inside had a piece of metallic foil (It seemed like a mylar type material, plasticy-metal-foil, but very thick.) separating the inside of the lid from the LCD (Which had rubber pads of some kind/spacers?). Whatever they made it out of, they got the properties right. When I was having the LCD replaced, I found that the lid was as stiff with the LCD removed, practically to the same levels as the T43. The only difference is that the T410's lid has a little less stiffness to torsion (Push on one side, pull on the other) than the T43. The reasons for this appears to be the wider screen and maybe the less aggressive bezel shape (The T43 practically has a protruding frame). However the LCD does not appear to be stressed during this nor is it structurally used to reinforce the lid so I feel that it is safe from damage.

Likvid, have you practically spent your life around Thinkpads since they had floppy drives? If you have, then you'd realize that the latest Thinkpads of today have improved greatly over the previous Thinkpads. I own a T43 and I can tell the difference, right now. This "low quality" you talk about might be your experience of getting a lemon.

Navck wrote:Likvid, have you practically spent your life around Thinkpads since they had floppy drives? If you have, then you'd realize that the latest Thinkpads of today have improved greatly over the previous Thinkpads. I own a T43 and I can tell the difference, right now. This "low quality" you talk about might be your experience of getting a lemon.

Not true, i have spoken to one guy at the service center when i called to check up my T400 repair status and he told me that since Lenovo took over the quality has gone downhill.

Statistics don't lie and i am not a fanboy, Lenovo lives on a the Thinkpad brand and still charge premium for their notebooks, however the only thing in common from when IBM had it is the brand.

If you want a quality notebook today you either buy Macbook Pros or the new Elitebooks from HP.

Well, for what it is worth, I don't agree with the argument of quality going downhill with lenovo. The thinkpad series in general are still *very* robust machines. I have lived with them since mid 90's and the trend has been always improving. I still own a T40 from '2004 (which has had a very rough life) and still doing well with few upgrades (including 1 motherboard swap).. and now my T400 has been absolutely flawless for one year already without even a single minor crack... and they are both on 24x7, either with me at work, or at home, in a daily basis.

while regular vanilla T400 in my opinion was pretty lousy, the newer revised T400s that i own now is much better in quality than stuff IBM/Lenovo put out previously (mainly t40 and t60 series). If not for the terrible screen, it would be on par with quality with newer macbook pros.

I kind of have high hopes for newer T/W series that uses revised elements from T400s.

Likvid wrote: Not true, i have spoken to one guy at the service center when i called to check up my T400 repair status and he told me that since Lenovo took over the quality has gone downhill.

I'll see your anecdote and raise you another. I have a friend who (although he recently left IBM) knows a number of people from IBM's hardware division as well as a number of folks who went to Lenovo as part of the acquisition.

His opinion? The engineering team behind the Lenovo ThinkPads is basically the same as the one behind the IBM ThinkPads -- and the same goes for the quality.

Personally, I think that both Lenovo and IBM have made some great machines and some not-so-great machines. Both companies have shown excellent engineering skills at some times and horrible penny-pinching at others. It's all part of the hardware game...

Statistics don't lie and i am not a fanboy, Lenovo lives on a the Thinkpad brand and still charge premium for their notebooks, however the only thing in common from when IBM had it is the brand.

What statistics?

Perhaps my post about how HP Elitebooks and Macbook (Pro)s are inferior in quality and inferior in engineering were very important to read?
Are you citing the statistic found by that one service center that places Apple tops for reliability? They are an external service center for third party extended warranties. That isn't "valid" in any manner because they are using close to self selection for the statistics.

I visited this forum for the purpose of getting some info on the 410. And I have so far run into several threads where a specific user keeps on talking about Lenovo's build quality going downhill. A decent discussion where documented facts are presented is a good thing. But I am surprised why this user keeps coming back here with the same things over and over again. When all is just personal opinions and little seems to backed up by facts and valid comparisons.

I like to stick with the same brands as long as their products serve me well, whether it's cars, computers or other things. If I am no longer satisfied with a specific brand, and/or it no longer fills my needs, I simply change to another brand. But I do so without over and over telling other people, who stick with the old brand because they like it, how bad I think it is.

I've owned four different thinkpads (including the T400 most recently) and I don't see any build/quality decline in it.

My particular corporate build on the T400 had the VERY cheapest screen and harddrive/memory combo -- but that's a CORPORATE decision and not a Lenovo one. They were looking for a cheap but reliable "laptop for the masses" and got it... they allow us to buy a very well equipped W500 instead of the 400 but I didn't want the xtra size. I upgraded the screen, put in a SSD, and added memory and now I'm quite happy with my T400.

So I think as long as you get decent components in any lenovo, you're going to be in good shape. Of course those components are more expensive...

I'm kind of sad that my T400 is already considered obsolete by Lenovo, but I suppose change is inevitable. As much as I trust Lenovo's apparent trend in engineering, I'd still prefer having my trusty LCD roll cage.

As for build quality, my parents' X61 and T60 are built to very high standards and subjectively very sturdy.
By comparison, my T400 seems to have significant flex if I press downwards on my right palm rest; it seems the entire chassis will warp down. Although I'm sure that every design of ThinkPad likely has inherent flaws in the structural integrity, it is because I've spent so much time with my T400 that I've come to notice the additional warping in the right side of the chassis.

Slight rant aside, I'm just hoping that the disappearance of the T400 is simply one of demand and that it will be available for a bit longer in the future. It's also too bad the Outlet doesn't ship anywhere outside of the US.

Colonel O'Neill wrote: As for build quality, my parents' X61 and T60 are built to very high standards and subjectively very sturdy.
By comparison, my T400 seems to have significant flex if I press downwards on my right palm rest; it seems the entire chassis will warp down. Although I'm sure that every design of ThinkPad likely has inherent flaws in the structural integrity, it is because I've spent so much time with my T400 that I've come to notice the additional warping in the right side of the chassis.

I work as a senior network engineer at a large ISP and i have high demands for the notebooks i use, the flexing you notice is typical of the Lenovo Thinkpads, it's cheap and nasty, there is no fix for it except putting some paper underneath to stop it flexing, problem being it will flex even more at new places.

The chassi crack very easily, mostly due to that Lenovo use cheaper plastic materials compared to what IBM used.

Another weak point with Lenovos are the LCD hinges, after a while you get so much woobling in the hinges it annoys you, there is no fix for this either as the tolerance is to high which makes it wooble.

Also when it comes to their screens they are the worst in the market, very poor contrast and hard to work with when there is strong light outside or in a datacenter i work with spotlights in the roof everywhere.

I use my notebooks as they should be used daily, all reviews out there are not from the field, sorry to say but Lenovo Thinkpads are just plain cheap chinese crap.

What annoys me the most is that they charge as much as when IBM sold Thinkpads.


Sh

Likvid wrote:there is no fix for it except putting some paper underneath to stop it flexing, problem being it will flex even more at new places.

The chassi crack very easily, mostly due to that Lenovo use cheaper plastic materials compared to what IBM used.

Another weak point with Lenovos are the LCD hinges, after a while you get so much woobling in the hinges it annoys you, there is no fix for this either as the tolerance is to high which makes it wooble.

Also when it comes to their screens they are the worst in the market, very poor contrast and hard to work with when there is strong light outside or in a datacenter i work with spotlights in the roof everywhere.

I use my notebooks as they should be used daily, all reviews out there are not from the field, sorry to say but Lenovo Thinkpads are just plain cheap chinese crap.

What annoys me the most is that they charge as much as when IBM sold Thinkpads.


Sh

You've hit upon the three major issues I've encountered:

I had to shove a sheet of folded Kleenex under the palm-rest to get it to warp a bit less, as well as a strip between the hard drive cover and the palm-rest to prevent it from squeaking.

For some reason, screwing in the screws on a VGA cable caused a minor crack near the fan grille; a subsequent bump (Silly me.) snapped all of the fins off the left fan vent grille. The only thing I fault Lenovo here is a poor design; the receptacle for the screw on the VGA should protrude more than it does now.

My hinges are a bit wobbly, with significantly less resistance. It's either poor quality or dropping it onto the ground, with the top right corner of the open display making contact with the ground. I'd call it the latter here, but my X61 has suffered similar damage without such a consequence.

The display itself is just nasty; the dithering is so very evident despite it having significant pixel density and me having quite blurred vision.

I'd still buy a T400; it hasn't had it's edges rounded off like on the newer stuff.

Likvid wrote:
I work as a senior network engineer at a large ISP and i have high demands for the notebooks i use, the flexing you notice is typical of the Lenovo Thinkpads, it's cheap and nasty, there is no fix for it except putting some paper underneath to stop it flexing, problem being it will flex even more at new places.

The chassi crack very easily, mostly due to that Lenovo use cheaper plastic materials compared to what IBM used.

Another weak point with Lenovos are the LCD hinges, after a while you get so much woobling in the hinges it annoys you, there is no fix for this either as the tolerance is to high which makes it wooble.

Also when it comes to their screens they are the worst in the market, very poor contrast and hard to work with when there is strong light outside or in a datacenter i work with spotlights in the roof everywhere.

I use my notebooks as they should be used daily, all reviews out there are not from the field, sorry to say but Lenovo Thinkpads are just plain cheap chinese crap.

What annoys me the most is that they charge as much as when IBM sold Thinkpads.


Sh

I have no idea where you are getting this information or opinions from.

Since Lenovo took over the IBM PC division, I've purchased no fewer than 15 new "Lenovo ThinkPads" thus I speak from experience.

I still own each and every one of them and have never experienced any of the issues you list above. I have well over a decade of ThinkPad experience since just after the brand was created. I can tell you in no uncertain terms, when one reads a negative review it's simply the reflection of one person. I am not saying that each and every ThinkPad model is perfect or even excellent, what I _am_ saying is none are as bad as the picture painted above.

Many people love to complain, we see it every day all around us. Also you never know the persons agenda. But to paint a picture like the one above is very slanted.

Because I have the ability to speak from what is now, years of experience with "IBM ThinkPads" _and_ "Lenovo ThinkPads" I can say they are excellent machines. I've owned every T series that has been produced. Most of the X series, and many of the workstation class machines. I use mine a minimum of eight hours a day, day after month after year.

The current T510 I just took delivery of is one of their best models yet.

Cheers...

People do like to complain

I don't really believe that Lenovo has poor build quality, nor do they not invest significant efforts in efficient manufacturing processes. It is so many steps above the Asus'es that have been cropping up at my school in increasing amounts. I have the utmost conviction that were I to treat an HP or Asus laptop the way I've treated my beloved ThinkPad, I'd have called in the accidental warranty a bunch of times. For me, my T400 IS the accidental warranty.

But for almost $1200 (after 30% coupon ), I think the picky side of me comes into play a lot more than it would had I gone with an HP.

An aside:
Anyone notice the square chunks cut out of the roll cage around the UltraBay on the T400? The one on the T60 is a solid piece. The difference it makes is that hitting keys on the right side with an empty UltraBay has a reverberating sound, which is kinda disconcerting while typing, coupled with the fact that I leave my optical drive at home when going to school. (People are always remarking how light it is. )

EDIT: After playing around with the Intel settings, I found that turning off most of the Power Saving features made the display much better.

Colonel O'Neill wrote:People do like to complain
An aside:
Anyone notice the square chunks cut out of the roll cage around the UltraBay on the T400? The one on the T60 is a solid piece. The difference it makes is that hitting keys on the right side with an empty UltraBay has a reverberating sound, which is kinda disconcerting while typing, coupled with the fact that I leave my optical drive at home when going to school. (People are always remarking how light it is. )

There is an OEM plastic cover that is designed to close off the opening of the ultrabay when empty. It's called a Travel Bezel. I use a few of them in some of my ThinkPads, they're great.

Yes, I too have noticed the difference in the roll cage between my T400 and my T60. My take is that each year up to and including the T60 series, ThinkPads were nicely improved. The T60 and T60p models I have are amongst my favorites, as I have 15" Flexview 4:3 IPS models.

When the T400/500 series was released the quality suffered a bit, and things like an offset display and less than stellar keyboard were disconcerting. This is the very reason I was so eager to get my hands on a new T510 to see just what Lenovo had created. I'm very happy to report as I have in other posts here, they are very nice. Back to the "ThinkPad Standard" complete with the subtle red and blue accents.

Cheers...

Personally, after using a T400 as my primary computer(not just a secondary laptop; I do everything on here now) and moving from a 15" T60p with UXGA Flexview... a ThinkPad that can be definitely viewed as a gold standard... I think the T400 holds its own.

I will agree that there are quite a few fit and finish issues that the T400 introduced. The display isn't the best in the world, although I believe this model has the high-nit CFFL as it gets very bright. I typically use it at about 60% brightness. The viewing angles are very poor for watching movies and viewing photos, but manages just fine for general work and even gaming.

There are other minor issues, but other than the keyboard(which can be replaced by a T6x keyboard without any difficulties) I can live with it. Lenovo has provided good, reliable, durable hardware for a great price... I picked my T400 off of Ebay for $600, but T400's on the outlet aren't that much more.

The price and lack of switchable graphics drove me away from the T410, and I don't feel like I made much of a sacrifice going for this model. The hardware fits all of my needs very well, and it's quickly becoming my favorite notebook. This is my personal opinion, and I most likely don't have the needs of other users. The only major problems I have are the atrocious Thinklight(the worst I've used on any ThinkPad; how did this get past engineering?) and the viewing angles on the display.

I needed a notebook that was light enough to take with me on the go quite a bit, allowed me to have a huge amount of hard drive space(I have a 500GB in the main bay and a 640GB in the Ultrabay right now), and enough power to game at least casually. The T400 fits my needs, and I can finally say I won't be upgrading to a newer model for quite a while.

Just an update:

The T400 with integrated graphics is back, although not sure for how long.

no offense though.... but ya I think I begin to agree with some of the points mentioned here, the hinge is getting wobbly. there is movement I brought my machine to IBM service center and got told its meant to be like that, complaint to Lenovo got it escalated and still the same the same answer returned, Bear in mind, I am outside US, I paid a premium price for this black plastic box. and I can't really accept it for a fault like this on this machine....... ya the loyal thinkpadders will keep on tell me you can always get the parts from eBay or something. well come on, can you get something around 5k - 6k my country's currency and you need to spend a few hundred bucks to change this and that with things that should have come with the machine ?

The hinges on T61/T400 are certified crap. I wasn't sure about the T400 earlier, but now the ones we have at my company are approaching 1.5 years of service and seem to be developing the same wobbliness symptoms that the T61s have had for a while now.

With that said, I don't think the hinges are more likely to fail because of that. I am almost convinced that it is only a cosmetic inconvenience.

Also, you can often convince the service to replace the hinges if they are too wobbly. Of course the problem is more likely going to return again in 1-2 years time, but what are you going to do.

I've owned most T series laptops from the T20 through the T400 and X series from the X21 through the X61s, and currently use the MacBook Pro 15" and MacBook Air.

ThinkPad quality did not decline in the period that I bought them (2000 through 2009), and I'd still buy them today without hesitation but for the fact that I moved my business to OS X.

My last T400 was better than my MacBook Pro in some ways, worse in others, but it was absolutely a quality machine that I highly recommend to Windows users.

Having owned two generations of ThinkPads (T61 14" widescreen and T400) and knowing a bunch of people who own ThinkPads, I feel that I can comment.

My T400 is absolutely without question the best ThinkPad I've personally seen. It's quieter, cooler, lighter, faster, and gets better battery life than the T61 I had. Some of that is Intel's work (better chipsets and CPUs), but most of it is Lenovo.

Switchable graphics on the T400 mean that I can have a decent laptop for playing WoW when I want to, and excellent (5+ hours with the 4-cell and the bay battery) battery life when I don't. The drivers are screwed up right now, so I switch in the BIOS, but it's still a hell of a lot better than having two notebooks or compromising on (either) crappy battery life or crappy graphics performance.

Yes, the palm rest creaks. It did on the T61, too. It's not a big deal because it doesn't really put the notebook at risk. Moreover, the palm rest creaks on my friend's 5-year-old T60, too.

I have not experienced cracking plastics or any other issues. Then again, I'm not the kind of person who drops my ThinkPad all the time.

Compared with any other business-class notebook I've used, T-series ThinkPads are cooler and quieter, dramatically cheaper, have better keyboards, and are still very well built.

I would not put the T400 up against the HP EliteBook 6930's build quality. The EliteBook has better fit and finish, is better looking, and is more durable. But the EliteBook doesn't have switchable graphics and (as an individual purchaser) it's at least 50% more expensive than the T400.

I purchased the T400 just as the T410 was introduced. I regret nothing. For about the same price as a mid-range consumer laptop ($800) I got a much better built machine. I get a TPM so I can use BitLocker. I get a magnesium roll cage. I get a docking port that I use with my $40 dock (the docks are very cheap now that the T410 generation needs a new dock). I get a bay battery for excellent battery life.

The T400 isn't a perfect laptop, but it is a business-class notebook at a consumer price.