Why a T410s when you can get a Vaio Z11?

[yshalabi]

My T410s has shipped but now I am having doubts.
The system cost me 1500 USD. The Vaio Z11 will cost 1800 after shipping.
The Z11 has a better graphics card, better screen and weighs less.

Convince me of why I should keep my thinkpad and not go with the new Sony Vaio Z11

[craigg]

Sony build quality leaves little to be desired.

The Sony is not as rugged as the Thinkpad.

The Sony warranty repair center is difficult to deal with and not consumer friendly.

We use to sell and service Sony but after our last experience we have completely dropped them. They look pretty and Sony does have the best lcd but the failure rate is high. All the risk being placed on the Partner with virtually no support from Sony when something goes wrong.

[FragrantHead]

Keyboard you can actually use.
Trackpoint.
Bigger screen.
16:10 screen, not 16:9.
Matte screen (don't know about the Sony, but they tend to be glossy).
Multi-touch trackpad (does the Sony have that, I don't know).
Build-quality.

For me the keyboard and trackpoint is the thing that tilts it in favor of the Thinkpad the most. Tried an Apple Macbook (unibody) and could not live with it. Of course, if the above doesn't mean anything to you, you might as well go with the Sony.

[sanjuro]

I like Thinkpad's keyboard but I don't like the poor LCD. For a $1500 machine, you have a valid reason to demand a better display.

Only company that supplies a decent LCD on their mid to upper range notebook is Apple. There was a statistics not too far back that Apple supplies over 90% of computers costing over $1000. Not too surprising considering the quality of their components, though it comes with a premium.

LCDs on their 15" or larger notebook are not IPS but considerably better than what Lenovo supplies on Thinkpads.

[voirin]

It's been the same old story ever since the T61p came out - really bad panel quality. I fail to understand why Lenovo don't offer a better panel as an option. I would pay premium for it. I had to sell a new t61p just because of this. It gave me a headache whenever I used it and its lack of brightness wasn't particularly helpful. Then I bought a HP notebook (which had an awful keyboard), and then the Dell Latitude (which has a great panel but awful keyboard and sound). But I think I'm coming back to a thinkpad again because of the keyboard - it's that good. I've heard the t410s has a very bright panel which is a positive, but the contrast ratio is low which is disappointing. If it wasn't for that [censored] screen the t410s would be perfect in every way (with SSD that is). I think I'll take the step and purchase the t410s.

[nikos]

Ok, I will give you some reasons to stick to the T410s, since I got a Vaio Z11 a couple of days ago (the i-5 420 model with the 1600x900 screen and the 2x64 SSD)
I wanted to buy the Thinkpad, but in France is not here yet and when it will arrive it will be at an absurd price, so I was waiting to buy an updated mode in a trip in the US this autumn. But my old notebook broke down last week and had to buy a new one urgently.
-My worst fear about the Sony came true: the screen is really small for its real-estate; I wonder how people could even work with the Full-HD. I find myself bending often closer to the screen, when I have the laptop on my laps, sometimes I have to lift it. I use a lot Excel and graphs. I need a big real estate, but need to see the details. They are too small. The scaling of the fonts I read in the forums is not a valid option, it doesn’t work well when you use external monitors, even the Microsoft site doesn’t scale well and at the end you lose that screen real estate.
-The screen is great for photos and videos, but it is glossy, anti reflect, but glossy. So this morning, the sun coming from the window is reflecting of the screen. Even with full-brightness I doubt it will be ok for outdoors computing. This prompted me to go back to the thinkpad sites and discover your question.
-The fan keeps working most of the time(not completely silent) and it heats a bit, even in Stamina mode, so I have to put some support on my laps, it can get warm to keep it on the lap directly.
-No capability for a 2nd external display. While it has a VGA and a HDMI port, they cannot work simultaneously, only one external monitor and the laptop screen. So I had to buy a Kensington Displaylink adapter,now it is ok, but it is still absurd, my old 3yr old laptop could do that. I checked the forums and apparently, even with the Sony docking station it is not possible. The Kensington adapter is ok for Office work, but not for video.
-When I attach the ext displays, only discrete graphics works and the fan works non-stop.
-4hrs of battery of surfing and some more hungry applications, maybe could go up to 4.5-5hrs with minimum performance, with standard battery. I guess with the extended battery it will match the Thinkpad with ultrabay battery.
-Keyboard OK, but not Thinkpad keyboard, I find the keys a bit too small.
-No thinklight and my version didn’t have the backlighted keyboard.
-Webcam ok, but only 0.3M pixels.
-Of course no ultrabay to be able to add a 2nd data Hdd and the SSDs are Sony custom made, so no possibility to upgrade them in the future.
-Quite fast, especially in graphics and the Raid SSD is amazing, but slower in memory operations than a 410s (I saw a post somewhere).
Processeur Intel(R) Core(TM) i5 CPU M 520 @ 2.40GHz 6,7 5,9
Déterminé par le sous-indice le plus bas

Mémoire vive 4,00 Go 5,9
Graphiques NVIDIA GeForce GT 330M 6,4
Graphiques de jeu 2650 Mo total de mémoire vidéo disponible 6,4
Disque dur principal 79GB libre (113GB au total) 7,6

So I will see if I can get used to the screen (which I doubt) and opt for the 410s in a couple of months. I will be travelling more and more and I cannot carry with me my external monitors to do my work comfortably.

[pianowizard]

We use to sell and service Sony but after our last experience we have completely dropped them...Sony does have the best lcd but the failure rate is high.

When did you drop Sony laptops? PC Magazine rates the reliability of various brands of laptops every year and in the past, Sony did score pretty low but they have been geting better. According to the most recent survey, Sony is the second most reliable among the PC laptops, better than Lenovo.

[craigg]

We fired Sony in 2009. Most of the laptops that we were selling from Sony were the Z series. For us the failure rate with the Z series was much higher than we experienced with Lenovo and Dell. To complicate matters further Sony only wants to pay authorized service centers approximately $50 for flat rate repair service. This rate is not sustainable as the cost of doing business in Hawaii is too high and many of the Vaio repairs required replacement of the system board. Instead of paying a fair repair rate, Sony, in their infinite wisdom would rather pay FedEx at least $100 to dispatch a box plus the round trip S&H so that their trained chimps at their California service depot could service it. Even if the customer purchased on site service you had to ship your computer to the depot as their were no techs willing to make an in house/office call at the current warranty reimbursement rates. The last incident that caused us to completely drop Sony involved the failure of a Vaio Z after about 5 days of use. We sent it to the Sony depot for our customer and after approximately 20 days he received it back only to find it had the same issue. At this point we provided the customer a full refund which he used to buy an X301. We took ownership of his Vaio and sent it back to the depot. It was returned again after several weeks with the same issue. We returned it a third time and again after several weeks it was returned with the same issue. At this point Sony wanted us to again send it to depot. I contacted the VP of Sony NA and they agreed to swap it out. This incident dragged out for close to 4 months and cost us time and money. Sony wants to sell these high end laptops for $3000 but they deliver a level of service worse than the customer buying a $300 Dell. As a partner buying from Ingram Micro if the unit isn't DOA then we own it with no right to return it. With the margins on these computers being so slim there is no way we can currently sell Sony Vaios and offer the level of service that we do.

[zhenya]

-My worst fear about the Sony came true: the screen is really small for its real-estate; I wonder how people could even work with the Full-HD. I find myself bending often closer to the screen, when I have the laptop on my laps, sometimes I have to lift it. I use a lot Excel and graphs. I need a big real estate, but need to see the details. They are too small. The scaling of the fonts I read in the forums is not a valid option, it doesn’t work well when you use external monitors, even the Microsoft site doesn’t scale well and at the end you lose that screen real estate.

Are you on Windows 7? Font scaling works great for me on Win 7, even on external monitors. Well enough that I hope we start moving away from these low res screens that are so common on laptops and can start finally seeing an improvement in sharpness. Plus those of us who are still blessed with good eyesight get so much more real estate!

[nikos]

Yes I use win 7, if I want to change the scaling, I have to close the session, not practical and having multiple screens with different resolutions (the laptop screen, a 1600x1050 22in and a 1280w1024 17in screen) isn't practical either. Ok for reading a text, but for graphs and charts I don't find it practical. But I am getting more used to it, I might keep this notebook after all. Oh and the battery lasts pretty much for simple surfing, more than 5 hrs.

[archer6]

I must admit that Sony's styling and feature set, has occasionally drawn me in. I've owned about 7 top of the line models over the last eight years, all of them turning out to be less than satisfying.

If one is going to buy a VAIO as an "extra" laptop for fun and variety as I do, then you can't get hurt as bad as if you buy one as your _only_ laptop. I would never rely on one in that capacity.

Take it from the voice of experience and avoid the temptation, you'll be very glad you did...

[pianowizard]

I've owned about 7 top of the line models over the last eight years, all of them turning out to be less than satisfying.

What does "top of the line" mean? If you mean "most expensive", I am not surprised by your statement at all. Most of the expensive Vaio laptops that I have seen tend to be designed to be as light/thin as possible, and such laptops naturally have high failure rates. The more "standard" laptops that Sony makes are much more sturdy and reliable, and may explain why Sony's reliability score is better than Lenovo's in the 2009 survey I cited above. For example, for 4 years I had a pretty cheap 8.1lb K23 Vaio laptop that was rock solid and didn't have any single issue. And I loved its screen, despite its low resolution (15.4" 1280x800).

I have noticed one more nice thing about Sony laptops: They depreciate a little slower than the Thinkpads.

[FragrantHead]

Reminds me of a Samsung N130 netbook I got for my sister. Decent keyboard, no flex whatsoever, really sturdy and dirt cheap. The kind of machine I can't help but feel happy about, just for the sheer value.

[Harryc]

@Pianowizard, you said that "The more "standard" laptops that Sony makes are much more sturdy and reliable". Excluding the expensive Vaio laptops, can you recommend a recent Sony model that fits in that category?

[pianowizard]

@Pianowizard, you said that "The more "standard" laptops that Sony makes are much more sturdy and reliable". Excluding the expensive Vaio laptops, can you recommend a recent Sony model that fits in that category?

The only Sony laptop I have ever owned was the K23 that I mentioned, which was a late P4 model. It was extremely well made and still looked new after almost 5 years of ownership. In addition to that laptop, I have played with quite a few of my friends' Sony laptops and at Sony Style. The relatively cheap ones feel very solid, and my comment regarding their reliability was based on the recent survey cited above. But since I haven't actually owned any of them, I can't really recommend any of them.

The expensive ones (many of them around $2K or even more) look nice but many feel fragile. I don't expect these to be as reliable as those that are cheaper, heavier and sturdier.

[nikos]

I just wanted to do an update on my last post. I have been using the Vaio Z1 for more than 10 days by now, connected to external monitors most of the time and moving around a bit. I got more used to the screen (which apart from the size and a relative lack of brightness is great) and the laptop is unbelievably fast. I read a review of the T410s in notebookcheck and the battery life is really disappointing. The Vaio and the T410s have more or less equivalent processors, but the standard battery for the Vaio (the one I have) has more than 30% capacity. I will wait for more reviews, but I start really liking my Vaio. Well the keyboard is still far away from a Thinkpad keyboard, but cannot have everything.

[pianowizard]

I have been using the Vaio Z1 for more than 10 days by now, connected to external monitors most of the time and moving around a bit. I got more used to the screen (which apart from the size

Your 13.1" 1920x1080 screen has a pixel density of 168.16 dots per inch, which is very close to the 170.67 DPI for my 15.0" 2048x1536. I have been using this laptop for about two years and still haven't fully adapted to its super-high pixel density. But such high-density screens are useful while traveling, when you don't have access to large external monitors. I know nothing about the reliabilty of the Z11, but considering its light weight, small size and high-res screen, I think it's quite possibly the best laptop for road warriors, especially if you need to view documents side by side. Just last week, I was on the road and had to work on my tax documents on my 240Z, which only has 1024x768 res. I really wanted to view the current-year tax form, the previous-year tax form and the instructions all at once, but the low-res screen made that impossible. The 1440x900 of the T410s would have helped, but something like your Z11 would be even better and I would have been willing to put up with the eye strain in exchange for the ability to view multiple docs side by side.

[zhenya]

Your 13.1" 1920x1080 screen has a pixel density of 168.16 dots per inch, which is very close to the 170.67 DPI for my 15.0" 2048x1536.

Wait, what laptop has a 2048x1536 screen?

[pianowizard]

Wait, what laptop has a 2048x1536 screen?

My modded T43p -- see my signature. People have done a similar mod to the R50p and the T60p. Look up "QXGA" on this forum.

But this high-res T43p doesn't really help me, because it's too heavy to travel with, and when I am at home or at work, I mostly use desktops with multiple super-sized LCDs. If I had the Sony Z11, I would be traveling with it a lot.

[qviri]

Your 13.1" 1920x1080 screen has a pixel density of 168.16 dots per inch

I got a Vaio Z11 a couple of days ago (the i-5 420 model with the 1600x900 screen and the 2x64 SSD)

[pianowizard]

I got a Vaio Z11 a couple of days ago (the i-5 420 model with the 1600x900 screen and the 2x64 SSD)

Thanks qviri for the clarification! But the Z11 does have the 1920x1080 option, and I had forgotten that nikos only had the lower-res version. With the 1600x900 screen, the DPI is only 140.13, and I bet you (nikos) will get used to it pretty soon.

[nikos]

Yes I confirm, it is not the FULL HD resolution and I am gettting used to it. The quality of the screen is amazing, the battery life is very good, the SSDs very fast. And looks sturdy enough.
And I really like the larger screen real estate, very useful.
In general I am very satisfied with this machine. But I would never go for the FULL-hd screen, would be too small for me.