Thinkpads Forum

I know it's durable, portable, etc. But how is this a business laptop without having a numpad? I know some Sony Vaio's that have a numpad which is what I want but how come Lenovo T's and W's don't?

There are many characteristics to a business laptop (vs. consumer-grade) other than a separate numeric keypad. My T410 has an "embedded" numeric keypad which I can use simply by turning on numlock.

I'll still be using my T410 years after the current flock of consumer laptops have broken, fallen apart or burned up. What consumer laptop offers you the Core i5-520m or 540m or the Core i7-620m? None of them, that I've seen. They use cheaper, crippled CPUs that have many of the advanced features of the chip disabled (like the i5-430m). ThinkPads come with a very configurable BIOS, good warranty, useful utility software and very little "bloatware". Their drivers are optimized for the hardware and so is the installed OS. The ThinkPad is a serious laptop... not a pretty piece of junk like most consumer laptops... even the "high-end" ones.

For my money, ThinkPads can't be beat for build-quality, engineering, warranty, durability and reliability. And yes, I've owned many consumer laptops but I'll never buy another one.

I was not aware that a separate numpad is a required characteristic for a laptop to be considered "business". If it was, then the vast majority of IBM/Lenovo/HP/DELL business machines would fail that category.

BTW, it is not true that no consumer laptop offers high-end i5/i7 CPUs. Quite a few do. Of course the price will also be adjusted accordingly.

And to discuss the example: the i5-430M is not really as crippled compared to the 540M as you may think. The main difference is just the clock speed. Other than that, it has very few (compared to the overall number) of features missing, which most users, business or consumer will hardly miss. Here's a direct comparison: http://ark.intel.com/Compare.aspx?ids=43537,43544,

But I totally agree on durability, reliability and configurability of the business machines, e.g. Thinkpads. The warranty service is also pretty excellent.

Don't really agree on the bloatware. The T60 preload came with tons of useless junk. I had to reinstall the OS a couple of times on these machines, and would always just use my own CD and install the drivers and needed applications using System Update.

Unless you are an accountant, I fail to see any business sense in a numpad. You can always get an external one if you really need it.

14" and 15" laptops are not wide enough; The 17" W701 does have a numpad. Your point being?

dr_st wrote:But I totally agree on durability, reliability and configurability of the business machines, e.g. Thinkpads. The warranty service is also pretty excellent.

Also, business laptops have more conservative, relatively plain designs that are more suitable for the workplace. There are some consumer laptops that also look appropriate in business environments (e.g. Apple and most Sony laptops), but the vast majority of consumer laptops would look too flashy.

dr_st wrote:And to discuss the example: the i5-430M is not really as crippled compared to the 540M as you may think.

Yes it is. Look at the Advanced Technologies section of the data sheet on Intel's website. It's crippled. AES New Instructions, Trusted Execution and VT-d are disabled. These are very useful features if you plan on doing any encryption/decryption, run virtual machines or need to protect the memory space of programs in development.

Granted, most consumers wouldn't know or care about these features. I'm not business user, I'm a consumer who occasionally uses technology that can take advantage of these features so they are important to me. And I've owned enough consumer laptops to appreciate the advantages of ThinkPads.

pianowizard wrote:Also, business laptops have more conservative, relatively plain designs that are more suitable for the workplace. There are some consumer laptops that also look appropriate in business environments (e.g. Apple and most Sony laptops), but the vast majority of consumer laptops would look too flashy.

Agree with you here, although I would not really classify Apple as a typical consumer machine. To me it's a class of its own.

Also, business laptops have more conservative, relatively plain designs that are more suitable for the workplace. There are some consumer laptops that also look appropriate in business environments (e.g. Apple and most Sony laptops), but the vast majority of consumer laptops would look too flashy.

I don't think the Sony Vaio Y is flashy and believe it's the perfect machine. It's a good magnesium exterior. It's not thick, has assist button for personal IT to chat with or call, has checkup button for personal use, 6 hours of actual battery, has i5, it's not flashy either. It's very sleek and sexy, looks very professional to me. It's all black and still simple. It's portable too. I don't see any lenovo's 13 or above that can run 6 hours of actual battery time without having a big life support on the butt. I like the T410 still though. Also, i've seen plenty of laptops with a numpad on 14 and 15" so what's your point? Also in my opinion, I believe built quality falls under durability because it's cause and effect. Also, it's not going to break down unless you take care of it. Not only that, I don't care if thinkpads last SO many years. It's not like i'm going to go into business and use a 4 year old outdated machine, it's upgrade time every 3-4 years anyways. Might as well send it in for discount or sell it.

LodenCorp wrote:I don't think the Sony Vaio Y is flashy and believe it's the perfect machine.

I'm gonna have to check that model out since you called it "perfect". I've always avoided Sonys due to the inflated price -- but maybe I should look again. I have seen a few of their high-end models in use in coffee shops, etc. and I was impressed with the display. My T410 came with a 3-year warranty. That's unusual in the laptop arena. I wonder what kind of warranty the Sonys come with? I upgrade every 3 yrs or so.

Then again, it would be hard for me to give up the legendary ThinkPad keyboard. They're the best laptop keyboards, hands down.

Yes, thinkpad keyboards are amazing but chiclets are also nice, both just getting used to. Definately check out the Sony Vaio Y and the Z. They're both amazing, I want the Z but can't afford it so I went with the Y. Y is $919 for me with the specs I want but the Z is 1899. The Y is worth more than the price itself.

I was just on the Sony website looking at the models. Yes the "Z" series are truly amazing -- they look to be the Macbook Pro of the PC world but very pricey.

I looked at the "Y" series too. The i5 processor offered is the 430um -- that's an ultra-low voltage processor. It's not the regular i5-430m. There are no Passmark scores listed for that CPU. Sony may be the only one using it at this time. It was just launched this quarter (well, 2nd quarter, 2010, we're now in the 3rd).
http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id=49023
No wonder you'll get good battery life with that CPU in it. But it may not perform as well as you would like. It all depends on your needs.

I look at it this way. i5 is a good processor overall and even if mine is a tad slower, i'd rather have that boost my battery life because I can wait. I'm a business major so I need portability and long battery life. 6 hours is great. I was thinking about the sony F series but it only lasts 2 hours but it has everything you'd ever need for a price of $999.99. Atleast it has turbo boost to go to 1.73ghz when needed. I'll be doing excel, word documenting, and web surfing. Excel is a program where it would work better for my type of processor of 430um because it's almost idle.

I bought my T410 (2522-RE3) specifically because it *does not* have a numerical pad.

If you're working on the road with your notebook on your lap, you *must* have your keyboard centered in front of you to type comfortably.
I sure hope Thinkpads 15" and under will leave out numerical pads!

BTW, I've heard that HP had announced that all their 15" notebooks will be dropping the numerical pad going forward, "because it is not comfortable for most users".

You make a very good point, w0qj.

The best option would be a retractable numpad, or a separate one that you can connect to the right of the machine (like the Ultrabay numpad for A3x/R4x/R5x). I think if there was an Ultrabay Slim numpad for a reasonable price, I'd get it.

Harryc wrote:http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... %20numeric

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My final choice was between the HP elitebook 15" and the Thinkpad T510. The lack of the numeric keypad (ie, typing position centered on screen) was one of the top reasons for going with the Thinkpad. I spent some time in Office Depot and Best Buy sitting in front of 15" machines with numeric keypads and could not get comfortable with them despite wanting to!

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