Longtime T4x owner looking 2 buy new model (T/R 400, other?)

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hydrostarr · #1 Post by **hydrostarr** » Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:15 pm

I've owned T4x's for 5-10 years, maybe more. The machines I own are now literally "dead," and my stand-in R52 needs to get replaced. New thinkpads I see:

T400/T410s
T500/T510s
R400, R500, W400, R500 (and maybe xx10 flavors of those, too)

I'm looking to get a summary the basic differences between all of these models. Thanks for any help.

notebookreview.com has great things to say about battery life of T400s, and I'm leaning that way (and towards the $500-ish after-market prices on these machines). fwiw, I don't typically buy "latest and greatest" but like to save $$ and go get the stuff that's coming off biz lease and/or overstock, etc, after a couple years. T400 seems like the best fit.

Additionally: looking to get a picture of a T400 and T500 chassis sitting side by side. Anything out there? I see varying dimensions listed for each of these (eg, an ebay lister shows a 1.3" height on a T500...seems too small, where other listings show 1.8"; this is a huge diff for laptop height). Do all the T400s and T500s each have the same chassis dimensions...or does it vary within the model type?

hydrostarr · #2 Post by **hydrostarr** » Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:35 pm

There's an T400 that I may want to buy, but its ebay listing expires at 10:30pm central time tonight. Any feedback I can get before then would be much appreciated.

(I've also asked the seller if they could effectively extend the listing...)

LegendaryKA8 · #3 Post by **LegendaryKA8** » Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:55 pm

What's the specs on the T400?

hydrostarr · #4 Post by **hydrostarr** » Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:13 pm

Listing:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWAX:IT

I like the warranty coverage; outstanding questions:
* onsite warranty?
* 7200 rpm drive?
* type of battery (4-, 6-, 9-cell)?

LegendaryKA8 · #5 Post by **LegendaryKA8** » Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:30 pm

That's not a bad deal... I got my T400 for a little over $600 back in Feb, and I thought that was a steal... but it did have the switchable graphics, 9-cell batt and bluetooth... only a P8400 for a CPU, though.

Firstly, since you're coming from a bunch of 4:3 machines... the widescreen might be surprising. The T400'll be about the same overall width of a 15" T4x. Mine with the 9-cell battery is a little heavy... I don't have a scale but I'd say about 5.5-6.0lb. The battery does add a significant chunk of weight.

The system is pretty speedy and in contrast to many online reviews I found mine to be pretty well-built and solid. it may be a little thicker than the T4x series... I'm not sure since I haven't had one in a while to compare it to.

Battery life on my 9-cell is around 5.5 hours or so, but it has seen some significant use and is a bit degraded. My estimate is that a new one should get up to about 6-7 hours with how I use my system... mostly Net browsing with wifi on, lower display brightness on integrated graphics. I'd estimate a 6-cell to be about 4-5 hours, and a 4-cell to be about 2.5-3 hours, but that's my wild guess.

My main complaints with it are the ThinkLight and the screen. Even for my nonprofessional needs it stinks. Viewing angles are pretty much nil and colors are just washed out. I love the system, but I hate the screen... the panel on my X200 is much better, and people complain about that. It does get plenty bright however, and some of the issues are mitigated a little bit if you turn up the brightness a bit. The ThinkLight is neigh near useless as well... it won't illuminate the keyboard much at all and most of the LED is exposed, blinding you most of the time you use it.

I really like this system, and would consider it neigh near perfect if I could somehow fix the ThinkLight issue and get a better display... it wouldn't even have to be IPS... just something that was on par with the X200 would work. Other than those issues it's a great rig. Also, I may just have bad luck when it comes to this display... Lenovo used multipe manufacturers for displays and chances are you will get a better one than I did.

hydrostarr · #6 Post by **hydrostarr** » Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:10 pm

(Thanks LegendaryKA8 for all the comments.)

What is/are "switchable graphics"?
And fwiw, I've been using laptops with 5-10 yr-old CPUs for a while now. Anything new is gonna seem speedy. But I do specifically want dual cores; I push my machines with a lot of concurrent processes, and I'm hoping multiple cores help.

Is there anyway to discern between T400 screen/display types/models to avoid these potential display problems? This notebookreview.com T400 review seems to rave about the display. Maybe these benefits are specific to the WXGA+ (1440x900) display (which the above ebay listing has)?

Also: still looking for general comments on T/R/W 400/500 differences... to make sure T400 is right for me...

hydrostarr · #7 Post by **hydrostarr** » Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:18 pm

I should also note: outdoor viewing in the direct sunlight will be very important for me. I like to spend a lot of time working outdoors, sitting in the sun (no shade) whenever I can.

LegendaryKA8 · #8 Post by **LegendaryKA8** » Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:29 pm

The switchable graphics allows you to switch between the integrated Intel X4500MHD and a discrete ATi HD3470 GPU. Integrated offers you better battery life, and the ATi offers you better performance. This would be a plus if you expect to do any sort of gaming or CAD work on your new notebook. However, you'll find that even the integrated X4500 has more power on tap than the discrete models in the T4x line... if those handled your graphics needs you'll be okay with the integrated GPU.

I currently have a WXGA+ CCFL display in my T400. I do want to stress that not all T400 panels are like mine... I really think I lost the luck of the draw. I have a Samsung panel of some sort, which amazes me since their TVs, desktop monitors and the like are pretty good. I recall hearing someone else having an AOC WXGA+ panel in their T400 they just loved, so there are good panels out there.

Unfortunately I'm not sure about outdoor viewing, but my panel does get pretty bright. I think there was a very high nit outdoor LED option available for the T400, but IIRC it's 1280x800 only and kinda rare to come across. I think it's 600 nit, though... pretty bright.

The differences between the models can be summed up like this:

T500: Mostly same hardware as T400 with 15.4" display, up to 1680x1050 resolution. Switchable models get a more powerful ATi HD3650 GPU.

W500: Mostly same as the T500, a mobile workstation model with generally faster processors(up to C2D T9900), higher resolutions(up to 1920x1200)and usually configured with more RAM. All of them have switchable graphics and use the Mobility FireGL V5700. Basically think of the W500 as a 'T500p' and you'll have a good idea of what it is.

R400/R500: Basically the same as the T400/T500, but they don't have switchable graphics and are generally configured with lower-end processors and less RAM. Essentially a 'budget T' series.

hydrostarr · #9 Post by **hydrostarr** » Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:43 pm

(Many thanks again LegendaryKA8 for all the comments.)

LegendaryKA8 wrote:The switchable graphics allows you to switch between the integrated Intel X4500MHD and a discrete ATi HD3470 GPU.

Ok, thx. How can I tell which machines are switchable? I doubt I need the better grahics...unless they offer significantly better viewing outdoors/in sunlight?? Battery life is key for me; want to minimize the number of times I have to walk back to the car to switch out batteries.

Not sure I want anything from the X series; 14" display is as small as I can go. Presuming X series doesn't have anything that large..?

I currently have a WXGA+ CCFL display in my T400. I do want to stress that not all T400 panels are like mine... I really think I lost the luck of the draw. I have a Samsung panel of some sort, which amazes me since their TVs, desktop monitors and the like are pretty good. I recall hearing someone else having an AOC WXGA+ panel in their T400 they just loved, so there are good panels out there.

Is there a means by which I can discern which machines have what display types by looking at ebay listings or asking sellers questions?

Unfortunately I'm not sure about outdoor viewing, but my panel does get pretty bright. I think there was a very high nit outdoor LED option available for the T400, but IIRC it's 1280x800 only and kinda rare to come across. I think it's 600 nit, though... pretty bright.

Ok. What's "nit" mean?
And fwiw: 1280x800 won't be good/big enough for me.

Thanks also for the model diffs. Specifically:

R400/R500: Basically the same as the T400/T500, but they don't have switchable graphics and are generally configured with lower-end processors and less RAM. Essentially a 'budget T' series.

Do the R and T offer the same (chassis) size (give 400/500 "sameness," of course)? If so, the R400 may be the right thing for me.

Also, still looking for a R/T 400 vs 500 size-comparison pic; would be great to see images of a 400 machine sitting next to a 500, to get a real, visual size comparison.

LodenCorp · #10 Post by **LodenCorp** » Thu Jul 15, 2010 11:01 pm

Why not just get a T410, or the T510 which is on great sale right now

dr_st · #11 Post by **dr_st** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:23 am

LegendaryKA8 wrote:Mine with the 9-cell battery is a little heavy... I don't have a scale but I'd say about 5.5-6.0lb. The battery does add a significant chunk of weight.

I actually weighed a T400 recently. With the 9cell battery it was a little under 2.5kg (5.5lbs). The battery does tip the balance backwards in an awkward way, so maybe this is why it feels heavier.

mattengland wrote:Do the R and T offer the same (chassis) size (give 400/500 "sameness," of course)? If so, the R400 may be the right thing for me.

The R400 is very similar to T400, using the same chassis materials only slightly thicker. The difference between R500 and T500 are more pronounced. R500 uses different, cheaper and heavier materials.

hydrostarr · #12 Post by **hydrostarr** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:10 am

LodenCorp wrote:Why not just get a T410, or the T510 which is on great sale right now

Cost. The market for 410/510s looks like they start at $850-ish, probably because there's only new ones out there. I can buy used 400s for $500-ish and still have years of warranty. I have small budget for this laptop buy, and the cost savings important.

Also: I don't know diff between 400 and 410. Not sure what extra $300+ gets me. Thoughts?

LegendaryKA8 · #13 Post by **LegendaryKA8** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:23 am

Jumping from a T400 to a T410 nets you significantly more powerful processors... from what I've heard they're a good jump from the Core 2 Duos that the T400 runs. Intergrated graphics are almost twice as powerful as the T400's X4500, and the discrete GPU is significantly more powerful as well. However, except for the T410s(a decent bit more expensive) switchable graphics models disappeared. All displays are LED backlit, which can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your preference(some people get headaches from LED displays).

The jury's out on battery life, but from what I've read the discrete models are a bit worse than a T400.

Port selection is definitely impressive... four USB ports(versus the T400's three), DisplayPort, eSATA, media card reader, FireWire, and ExpressCard34.

hydrostarr · #14 Post by **hydrostarr** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:46 am

(Good notes all, thanks again for the comments, extremely helpful.)

The key parts for me: display and battery life. CPU (as long as it's dual-core) doesn't matter as much.

Biggest question: still trying to figure out how to "root out" the good/bad display quality/types before I buy... help? (Pls note application: outdoor/sunlight viewing...not special graphics/gaming/etc. Details below.)

More details:

Display: Need to get the display right. This is key for me. I don't do any gaming/imaging/special-intensive graphics work; don't care about souped-up display in this sense. Switchable graphics probably doesn't matter to me; reducing power consumption for battery life (below) does. BUT, it DOES have to look good in the sunlight for my basic web/email/spreadsheet/programming stuff. Still wanting to know how to determine what display quality I'm getting before I buy a (presumably T400) model. See LegendaryKA8's comments above about their display-quality problems--scary. Outdoor/direct-sunlight-exposed viewing essential. Also: must be WXGA+ (1440x900) or better. (1280x800 won't do.) Also: still wondering what "nit" means...?

Battery life: love the 6+ hours of a T400. A lot. Can't get enough of that. May buy an ultrabay battery to be able to switch primary batteries on the fly, too. We'll see. In any case, I'll be working outdoors a lot away from power sources--battery is important. (Same scenario drives the display-in-sunlight stuff, too.)

CPU: Presumably don't need extra CPU power of T410. The T400 C2D is going to crush anything I've been using previously; I'm more storage bound than CPU bound for my work (and I'll get a 7200 rpm drive accordingly, might tinker with a dedicated 2nd HDD/ultrabay Flash drive for OS--and I'm quite familiar with limitations of Flash).

More on T400 vs T410: The T410 ports are nice, but not $300+ more nice. Would like eSATA. But such is life. I'm already "upgrading" in price for a T400 (yeah, I'm cheap on this one) over a used T6x or a HP nc6400 (which is where i started). Also, if there's even a chance battery is getting WORSE on T410, that further keeps me away.

R400 vs T400: I don't see many if any R400's with WXGA+ in the $500-ish price range, while I do for the T400s, so the R400 may be out. Effectively: the required T400s are basically cheaper on the market.

hydrostarr · #15 Post by **hydrostarr** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:54 am

Also: still looking to get a picture of a T400 and T500 chassis sitting side by side. Anything out there? I see varying dimensions listed for each of these (eg, an ebay lister shows a 1.3" height on a T500...seems too small, where other listings show 1.8"; this is a huge diff for laptop height). Do all the T400s and T500s each have the same chassis dimensions...or does it vary within the model type?

LegendaryKA8 · #16 Post by **LegendaryKA8** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:37 pm

Okay... here's a couple of questions answered:

I'm currently typing this outside in full sunlight. It's definitely workable in these conditions, but you will need to turn the brightness up completely in order to get decent readability out of it. Since you do a lot of work in full sunlight you probably know the drill. Obviously, battery life will be affected, but I wasn't out there to see by how much... I do 99% of my notebook use indoors. If it helps, I typically keep my display on half brightness when I'm working indoors... higher than that and I find it too bright.

A 'nit' is a measure of display brightness. Most notebook screens I've encountered are about 2-300 nit, so this 600 nit display would be pretty nice, if it wasn't for the resolution. I don't mind 1280x800 on my 12.1" X200, but would find it cramped on the T400.

If you're worried about the display quality I did a bit of digging and the AOC 1440x900 display I've heard that was really good has a FRU of 42T0597.

hydrostarr · #17 Post by **hydrostarr** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:02 pm

LegendaryKA8- you rock.

More questions:

LegendaryKA8 wrote:If you're worried about the display quality I did a bit of digging and the AOC 1440x900 display I've heard that was really good has a FRU of 42T0597.

Do we have any way to confirm this AOC 1440x900 display-goodness "rumor"?
Just as important: is there any way I can find out this display flavor (AOC vs CCFL, etc) that a machine has at the time of purchase? Match up with the Model/Type, by any chance? And/or some other way?

Also: what do "AOC" vs "CCFL" (what LegendaryKA8 has) panel types represent? The supplier/vendor name? Something else?

LegendaryKA8 · #18 Post by **LegendaryKA8** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 1:24 pm

mattengland wrote:LegendaryKA8- you rock. More questions:

Do we have any way to confirm this AOC 1440x900 display-goodness "rumor"?

Just as important: is there any way I can find out this display flavor (AOC vs CCFL, etc) that a machine has at the time of purchase? Match up with the Model/Type, by any chance? And/or some other way?
Also: what do "AOC" vs "CCFL" (what LegendaryKA8 has) panel types represent? The supplier/vendor name? Something else?

Oh... both those panels are CFFL... I should have cleared that up earlier. AOC is just a specific manufacturer. I had a thread on the NBR forums on these problems here: http://forum.notebookreview.com/lenovo- ... uirks.html

The user that commented on their AOC display is lead_org; a rather knowledgeable and well-respected presence on those forums(and here as well, I think). My display is a Samsung with a FRU of 42T0583.

If there is a specific ThinkPad you're looking to purchase, ask the seller for the system model number (for example, the one on my T400 is 2765-T6U) and its seven-character serial number. Plug that info in this site(http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site. ... yle=lenovo) and it'll tell you the exact FRUs used to build the system. You can also use this information to determine warranty status as well.

hydrostarr · #19 Post by **hydrostarr** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:13 pm

(fyi: I've asked a forum admin to change my forum/login name to 'hydrostarr'... sorry for any confusion... )

hydrostarr · #20 Post by **hydrostarr** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:00 pm

Ok, got parts specs from ibm.com (via the type/serial-number input) on the unit that the ebay seller is offering me:

Mfg part # = 42T0596
FRU part # = 42T0597
Description = 14.1 INCH LCD DISPLAY FRU
Serviceable? = NO

Not sure how this translates into display capability/quality...?

(The lack-of-orderable/serviceable part by IBM seems a little
troubling from a warranty-protection persepective... should I read
much into this?)

hydrostarr · #21 Post by **hydrostarr** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:13 pm

Oh wait....my FRU part # (42T0597) matches the "good" FRU mentioned in http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.ph ... 32#p583532 ... so if we go with the lead_org's recommendations (and/or can verify them), I should be good to go!

hydrostarr · #22 Post by **hydrostarr** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:27 pm

fwiw, I tried to clarify some of the earlier confusion and/or duplicate questions on the notebookreview.com thread. Things look good, may or may not wait for lead_org's confirmation before I buy...

Again, thanks everyone for all the help!

hydrostarr · #23 Post by **hydrostarr** » Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:41 pm

Any suggestions on how I can map FRU part IDs/numbers to T400 types (as per http://forum.notebookreview.com/6479847-post21.html )?

hydrostarr · #24 Post by **hydrostarr** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:37 pm

(pls advise if I'm hijacking this thread inappropriately...)

Found a killer deal for a T410 with WXGA+ display FRU = 42T0735. TFT display - ThinkWiki has little info on this FRU (OEM, detailed specs, etc). Any way I can find out more?

hydrostarr · #25 Post by **hydrostarr** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:55 pm

I just discovered the T400s (NOT "plural" T400, but rather an "s" in the model name...didn't get that before). .8" thick! That's pretty sweet in my book. Been looking for 14" display that's closer to the size of my old, beloved T41... only problem is this now "resets" my search. *sigh*
Back to hunting...

In the meantime: anyone care to comment on the T400s?

(Edit: adding more reviews...)

ps: reviews:
http://www.notebookreview.com/default.a ... kpad+t400s
http://computershopper.com/laptops/revi ... kpad-t400s
http://www.thinkpads.com/2009/07/27/thi ... s-vs-t400/

hydrostarr · #26 Post by **hydrostarr** » Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:37 pm

Ok, after careful review, I'm declining the T400s option. Yes, it was more money--which I was willing to spare for the reduced size--but the nail in the coffin was the non-standard 1.8" drive. I'm a drive swapper (5400, 7200rpm, flash/SSD, etc). Non-std drives won't do. Bummer.

hydrostarr · #27 Post by **hydrostarr** » Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:03 pm

The search/saga has come to an end...finally! I bought a T60p 15" UXGA (1600x1200). (Widescreen, "short" displays just don't do it for me...)
Details: http://forum.notebookreview.com/what-no ... ost6511498

hydrostarr · #28 Post by **hydrostarr** » Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:08 pm

Thanks big-time for all who helped me through this process, including LegendaryKA8 and everyone on these threads:

http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=89206
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=89205
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=89130
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=89182
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=87972

Couldn't have done it without you guys!

emeraldgirl08 · #29 Post by **emeraldgirl08** » Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:14 pm

How cool! Congrats!

Pics when you get it set up please

Longtime T4x owner looking 2 buy new model (T/R 400, other?)

Longtime T4x owner looking 2 buy new model (T/R 400, other?)

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Re: Longtime T4x owner asks: what's major diffs b/w new models?

Re: Longtime T4x owner asks: what's major diffs b/w new models?

Re: Longtime T4x owner asks: what's major diffs b/w new models?

Re: Longtime T4x owner asks: what's major diffs b/w new models?

Re: Longtime T4x owner asks: what's major diffs b/w new models?

Re: Longtime T4x owner asks: what's major diffs b/w new models?

Re: Longtime T4x owner asks: what's major diffs b/w new models?

Re: Longtime T4x owner asks: what's major diffs b/w new models?

Re: Longtime T4x owner asks: what's major diffs b/w new models?

Re: Longtime T4x owner asks: what's major diffs b/w new models?

Re: Longtime T4x owner looking 2 buy new model (T/R 400, other?)

Re: Longtime T4x owner looking 2 buy new model (T/R 400, other?)

Re: Longtime T4x owner looking 2 buy new model (T/R 400, other?)

Re: Longtime T4x owner looking 2 buy new model (T/R 400, other?)

Re: Longtime T4x owner looking 2 buy new model (T/R 400, other?)

Re: Longtime T4x owner looking 2 buy new model (T/R 400, other?)

Re: Longtime T4x owner looking 2 buy new model (T/R 400, other?)

Re: Longtime T4x owner looking 2 buy new model (T/R 400, other?)

Re: Longtime T4x owner looking 2 buy new model (T/R 400, other?)

Re: Longtime T4x owner looking 2 buy new model (T/R 400, other?)

Re: Longtime T4x owner looking 2 buy new model (T/R 400, other?)

Re: Longtime T4x owner looking 2 buy new model (T/R 400, other?)

Re: Longtime T4x owner looking 2 buy new model (T/R 400, other?)

Re: Longtime T4x owner looking 2 buy new model (T/R 400, other?)

Re: Longtime T4x owner looking 2 buy new model (T/R 400, other?)

Re: Longtime T4x owner looking 2 buy new model (T/R 400, other?)

Re: Longtime T4x owner looking 2 buy new model (T/R 400, other?)

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