Just bought T400s on Closeout - WTF

[wayandrs]

Just got my T400s a week ago - bought from Lenovo.com outlet site. New unit, not refurb.

Had an X31 till now, almost six years, great machine. Had to give up on it ... just too old, screen getting yellow, brightness sucked, and the power plug was loose, making charging a challenge.

So I did tons of research, and settled on the T400s - almost the same as the 410, but a whole lot cheaper.

Now that it's here, I'm shaking my head.

What's up with the quality on Lenovo? Granted, I read the threads about people complaining, but I chalked that up to a small minority of those who just got unlucky, or like to complain about everything. After all, the Thinkpad is supposed to be the high mark of pro laptops!

As I'm typing on this (sad excuse of a) laptop, with the left side of the palm rest squeaking at every minor motion of my wrist, and the right side of the wrist pad bent up (right below the speaker, not at all flush), I'm just plain sad. People paid $1,800 for this level of quality? You have to be kidding. Based on what I've been reading, sending it back won't be more than a gamble as far as this actually getting fixed - without that whole cracking issue I keep reading about, at least.

Should I return this thing, buy something else? Who makes a decent laptop anymore? What's the verdict, suggestions, anything to make me feel better about this purchase?

I don't have money to just throw around, and I thought long and hard before handing Lenovo my money. And I'm definitely not feeling good about it.

[Crunch]

Hah...Yea, I hear you on that. I was the proud owner of IBM and later Lenovo ThinkPad's for eleven (11) years and I've had it. I came close to continuing on as a customer with the ThinkPad W701 earlier this year and I'm very glad that I didn't. The support has also gone to s*** except for the hardware support and only because IBM is doing it for Lenovo.

[ThinkRob]

I've used a 600X, a 750c, an X40, a T43p, T500, an X61s, an X60, and an X200.

Of those, I would rank them in the following order in terms of "fit and finish": 750c, 600X, X40, X61s/X60, T43p, X200, T500.

In terms of actual durability, the X200, X61s, and T500 all seem to be more resilient than the IBM designs, with the sole exception of the 750c -- and that's just because the latter is about 2+ inches of solid plastic!

As far as the T400s is concerned... well... so it doesn't "feel" as good. I haven't used one, but I can appreciate the importance of how a machine feels. Still, what's far more important (at least to me) is the quality of the actual design, how well it holds up over time, and how well it can deal with heavy travel. So far, I haven't seen anything that would make me think that Lenovo's engineers produce a worse product in this regard.

I flamed the X200s pretty badly a while ago, but in retrospect (and after using it as my regular machine for a while), while it *felt* flimsy and cheap, it proved to be every bit as strong and hardy as some of the IBM machines I've used.

Summary: feel is important, but fit and finish doesn't necessarily indicate durability.

[ZaZ]

Should I return this thing, buy something else? Who makes a decent laptop anymore? What's the verdict, suggestions, anything to make me feel better about this purchase?

The question remains what are you going to get that's significantly better for the same price? Not much in my experience. Much has changed in the world of notebooks since you got your X31. Notebooks have become much more ubiquitous, but for that to happen, notebook prices had to come way down. The Thinkpads I've seen have been pretty solid save for the Edge and SL. I'd describe my own X200 as excellent as good as the Thinkpads of yore.

[wayandrs]

The list price on the T400s with my configuration was right around $1,800. For that amount of money, the "hey, they're cheap" argument shouldn't apply.

And taking it out of the box, with very noticeable flex in the arm rest, and pieces not fitting together doesn't do strong accounting for any sort of quality control. Those are immediately visible aspects - making me more than just a little worried how the rest of this thing is put together!

[Yossarian1]

The list price on the T400s with my configuration was right around $1,800. For that amount of money, the "hey, they're cheap" argument shouldn't apply.

And taking it out of the box, with very noticeable flex in the arm rest, and pieces not fitting together doesn't do strong accounting for any sort of quality control. Those are immediately visible aspects - making me more than just a little worried how the rest of this thing is put together!

As a counterpoint, my T400s is fine. Fit and finish are what I would expect, and you are right to point out what they were selling it for, a high end machine.

My only thought is that you did not get a new machine, I would contact Lenovo.

[Volker]

T4x0s is just thin plastic over a metal frame. If you find another way to build a laptop that is about as thin and light as the x31 but with a significantly larger screen then maybe you should start making your own

[ThinkRob]

T4x0s is just thin plastic over a metal frame.

To be honest that's why I'm not worried about the larger Lenovo laptops feeling "flimsy". Yes, some of the plastic is definitely thinner and more pliable than I'd like -- but the metal endoskeleton on the chassis seems to provide pretty good rigidity. My T500 certainly "feels" cheaper than my 600X, but I wouldn't hesitate to describe it as a "tank-like" laptop. I wouldn't say the same of the 600X.

The new composite glass and carbon-fiber reinforced lids worry me a bit due to their susceptibility to torsion, but since they have excellent resistance to bending I think my initial concerns may have been misplaced.

[Navck]

Wait several months to obtain a T43 at 4k?
... Or get the newest i7-620m with 8GB of RAM, 7.2k 500GB HDD, WXGA+ screen, etc within weeks at under 2k.

As far as I'm concerned, the T410 lid is as good as the T43 lid and better. (It might "appear" to be less torsionally resistant but the LCD does not actually shift colors when I do that. T43... Different story.)

And from what I can tell with the plastics, I think Lenovo went with more flexible plastics in the T410 (Unsure about this cracking issue with the palmrest) that are more resistant to cracking (Have a small one in the T43 palmrest). The chassis/frame provides all the strength you need.

[pianowizard]

My T500 certainly "feels" cheaper than my 600X, but I wouldn't hesitate to describe it as a "tank-like" laptop. I wouldn't say the same of the 600X.

Perhaps just *your* 600X. I had one 600, two 600E's and one 600X, and they were the four sturdiest laptops I have ever owned. In terms of build quality, these represented the peak of IBM's Thinkpads and things went downhill from there, culminating in the T4*'s which were of course the most fragile among all Thinkpads.

[Navck]

I know someone that has owned a lot of 600Es, 760s (EDs to be specific) and a bunch of legacy Thinkpads.
I checked with him about the T410 keyboard and it seems to hold up and surpass the 600 keyboard.

Engineering still happens, don't judge build quality by superficial matters. ("The plastic flexes.")
There are other determinates of quality (Check how well the rubberized finish holds up on a T4x or T4x0 compared to a 600. The formulation got changed over time too.)

[ThinkRob]

Perhaps just *your* 600X. I had one 600, two 600E's and one 600X, and they were the four sturdiest laptops I have ever owned. In terms of build quality, these represented the peak of IBM's Thinkpads and things went downhill from there, culminating in the T4*'s which were of course the most fragile among all Thinkpads.

Oh, I'm not disputing that they *feel* far sturdier than most any other ThinkPads. I *am* disputing any claims that they're stronger/more durable.

As I said, a lot of the IBM units have far, far better "fit and finish" than the Lenovo ones. They were clearly built with an eye towards feeling like a premium laptop and with tighter QA tolerances. That doesn't necessarily make them more durable though. Another example: the X31 *feels* a lot more solid than the X200s. The X200s doesn't suffer from the fracturing (specifically the plastic near the hinge) that the X3x series did.

[Harryc]

Some folks are reporting cracks in the T410s palm rests -
http://forum.lenovo.com/t5/T400-T500-an ... d-p/194131

[pianowizard]

I *am* disputing any claims that they're stronger/more durable....Another example: the X31 *feels* a lot more solid than the X200s. The X200s doesn't suffer from the fracturing (specifically the plastic near the hinge) that the X3x series did.

The 600 series is over a decade old, and the X31 is just a little newer, so of course lots of them have suffered damages. How can you possibly predict that the current Thinkpads (e.g. the X200s) will hold up better in 10 years?

[ThinkRob]

The 600 series is over a decade old, and the X31 is just a little newer, so of course lots of them have suffered damages. How can you possibly predict that the current Thinkpads (e.g. the X200s) will hold up better in 10 years?

You're right, I can't. But I do know people who reported the cracking on the X31 after only a year of use, and I haven't heard of any such design flaws in the X200s.

[pianowizard]

I know someone that has owned a lot of 600Es, 760s (EDs to be specific) and a bunch of legacy Thinkpads.
I checked with him about the T410 keyboard and it seems to hold up and surpass the 600 keyboard.

I know that lots of Thinkpadders pay a lot of attention to the keyboard, but I don't and my earlier comments about the superiority of the 600 series referred to its general quality.

Engineering still happens

Absolutely. But these days, laptop engineering is far more challenging than it used to be. For example, modern CPUs and GPUs generate more heat; laptops are expected to be much thinner and lighter than they were 10 - 15 years ago; but at the same time, modern laptops need to incorporate many more features such as wireless cards and webcams. So, it was much easier for IBM's engineers to build a tank-like 600/E/X than for them to build a tank-like T4* (and indeed their attempt to make a thin-and-light T40/41/42 turned out to be a disaster), and it's even harder for Lenovo's engineers to build a tank-like T4** or X2**. And when I praise the 600 series over Lenovo's current laptops, I am by no means implying that IBM had better engineers than Lenovo does today.

don't judge build quality by superficial matters.

I do make that mistake sometimes, but for the 600/E/X series, it has clearly stood the test of time.

You're right, I can't. But I do know people who reported the cracking on the X31 after only a year of use

I agree with you on the X31. Like I said, IBM's Thinkpad quality peaked with the 600/600E/600X but went downhill afterward. Some of the current Lenovo Thinkpads may indeed turn out to be more durable/reliable than the X31, though we will have to wait for a couple more years before we can draw any conclusion.

But as far as the 600 series is concerned, it not only felt solid but it was also very durable and reliable. None of IBM's T, R, A, G, X and i series topped that. So, I was surprised when you said your 600X wasn't "tank-like", and my only explanation is that you don't have a good example of the 600 series. If you ever come across a mint-condition 600/E/X, I bet you will change your verdict!

[ThinkRob]

Absolutely. But these days, laptop engineering is far more challenging than it used to be. For example, modern CPUs and GPUs generate more heat; laptops are expected to be much thinner and lighter than they were 10 - 15 years ago; but at the same time, modern laptops need to incorporate many more features such as wireless cards and webcams. So, it was much easier for IBM's engineers to build a tank-like 600/E/X than for them to build a tank-like T4* (and indeed their attempt to make a thin-and-light T40/41/42 turned out to be a disaster), and it's even harder for Lenovo's engineers to build a tank-like T4** or X2**. And when I praise the 600 series over Lenovo's current laptops, I am by no means implying that IBM had better engineers than Lenovo does today.

Heh. For the most part, they have the same engineers. They're about 30 minutes away from where I live, and from what I understand the biggest change during the transition was the appearance of a Lenovo sign on the corner of one of the buildings. That, and the presence of US Secret Service on the IBM campus for a while... but that's another story.

I think pianowizard has hit upon an important point: the functional requirements for a laptop have changed quite a bit in the last decade, and a lot of the tricks that were previously viable are no longer acceptable. (Example: thick, dense plastic will make a machine feel quite solid, but it won't be as light as thin plastic over a magnesium alloy skeleton. Since few modern customers want to lug around a 7 lb. 13" laptop, the latter is the only reasonable choice.)

But as far as the 600 series is concerned, it not only felt solid but it was also very durable and reliable. None of IBM's T, R, A, G, X and i series topped that. So, I was surprised when you said your 600X wasn't "tank-like", and my only explanation is that you don't have a good example of the 600 series. If you ever come across a mint-condition 600/E/X, I bet you will change your verdict!

The one I have is in excellent working condition, but the "fit and finish" certainly *hasn't* held up. In fact, I was amazed that while the chassis itself is in great condition, almost all the doors and port covers are starting to have their adhesive melt/degrade, causing them to separate from the body of the laptop. Neither the 750c nor the X40 nor the X200 that I have/had would have been susceptible to this, as they didn't use the same port cover design. Now this doesn't mean that any of the models I listed are superior to the 600 series; I just don't agree that the 600 was the pinnacle of engineering that you seem to think it was. It had its design flaws and "fit and finish" issues, just like every other ThinkPad. I don't even think it had less of them either.

One of my side projects is a full refurb. of my 600X, so if I can get it back to "mint" status, I'll let you know my thoughts on it then.

[bill bolton]

build a tank-like T4* (and indeed their attempt to make a thin-and-light T40/41/42 turned out to be a disaster)

Our consulting group ran a large fleet of T4x Thinkpads, in reasonably demanding field usage conditions, and found they were very reliable over a 4 year commercial service life, so your assertion that the T4x range was a disaster seem to be quite excessive to me.

Cheers,

Bill B.

[Navck]

From my personal observations, the quality of the plastics improved from the T43 with the T410, especially with the keyboard keys. The rubber lid is also more resistant to scratches, just as the palm rest plastic is much more elastic and will be resistant from cracking like the T43 can have.

Now, if I look at my father's T30 with several cracks through the chassis and compare it to my T43...

Modern CPUs do not necessarily put out "more" heat if you think about it. P4M TDP is 35W, a i7-620m's TDP is 35W *with* the Intel GPU. The Pentium M family had a lower TDP than the P4M family.

As for the test of time, I obviously can't go into the future but I have a five (To be six) year old T43, a family member's T42 and my father's T30 to compare. The T410 seems to of held initial quality AND for the first half of the year beat them by far, especially in the keyboard plastics department.

... Maybe I should step away from this, I remember the classics from my father's workplace in the 90s... With the contrast sliders.
Oh and gameport for the controller.
And integral floppy.

[FragrantHead]

I have a T410s and, while I noticed the thin plastic over metal effect on close inspection, mine is really solid and non-creaky, apart from an ill-fitting cover on the bottom the bottom of the machine. However, in answer to the original question, there are posts to be found on the Internet that appear to be from IT support managers for big corporations, which claim a high failure rate for the T400s model. There are also individual complaints about random shutdowns and display failure issues that appear to be endemic to that model. I am only a single user myself with no direct experience, but, if I was already unhappy with the quality of the machine I got, I would return it for something else on account of these added, long-term reliability worries. By the way, T410s is a different chipset / CPU generation, thus hopefully a different kettle of fish.

[dr_st]

By the way, T410s is a different chipset / CPU generation, thus hopefully a different kettle of fish.

From the posts of one of these IT guys here, it does seem that T400s suffer a lot from reliability, and situation may be better with T410s. Unfortunately, battery life also suffered in this transition, which makes me doubt as to whether the T410s is the "perfect" model I want to get...

and indeed their attempt to make a thin-and-light T40/41/42 turned out to be a disaster

Putting aside the question whether the amount of failures in this series is sufficient in itself to qualify it as a "disaster", I think that it was established with collective experience, that the GPU/southbridge failures have little to do with the thinness and lightness per-se. Evidence of failing GPUs even on machines that have barely been moved, and definitely not flexed, as well as engineering explanations as to the cause, suggest that the fundamental problem is in the soldering process, which makes the soldering joints fragile after a large amount of heating/cooling cycles. Flex can contribute to the problem, but is not the primary cause.

[pianowizard]

The one I have is in excellent working condition, but the "fit and finish" certainly *hasn't* held up. In fact, I was amazed that while the chassis itself is in great condition, almost all the doors and port covers are starting to have their adhesive melt/degrade, causing them to separate from the body of the laptop.

Okay, now it's clear that we have been talking about different aspects of "quality". I was really talking about the important parts of a laptop (chassis, lid, etc.), whereas you were focusing on the ornamental parts. To me, the port covers are just as unimportant as the Intel or Windows stickers. In fact, they were completely removed from the 600E that I had for over 3 years. If you ignore the doors and port covers, would you say the rest of your 600X feels "tank-like"?

Modern CPUs do not necessarily put out "more" heat if you think about it. P4M TDP is 35W, a i7-620m's TDP is 35W *with* the Intel GPU. The Pentium M family had a lower TDP than the P4M family.

I was talking specifically about the 600, 600E and 600X, which used Pentium-MMX, Pentium II and early Pentium III. These processors didn't really need cooling fans.

As for the test of time, I obviously can't go into the future but I have a five (To be six) year old T43, a family member's T42 and my father's T30 to compare. The T410 seems to of held initial quality AND for the first half of the year beat them by far, especially in the keyboard plastics department.

When making such comparison, of course it is important to keep in mind that not all laptops were handled in the same manner. My 10-year-old 240Z still looks mint, but that's just because the previous owner rarely used it, not because it uses premium material.

Putting aside the question whether the amount of failures in this series is sufficient in itself to qualify it as a "disaster", I think that it was established with collective experience, that the GPU/southbridge failures have little to do with the thinness and lightness per-se. Evidence of failing GPUs even on machines that have barely been moved, and definitely not flexed, as well as engineering explanations as to the cause, suggest that the fundamental problem is in the soldering process, which makes the soldering joints fragile after a large amount of heating/cooling cycles. Flex can contribute to the problem, but is not the primary cause.

I am very aware of the fact that flexing isn't the only cause of the loose GPU problem. After all, I have always handled by T42 very carefully and yet its GPU still got loosened. But that doesn't rule out flexing as being one of the major causes of the problem. Both are important factors, IMO.

[ThinkRob]

If you ignore the doors and port covers, would you say the rest of your 600X feels "tank-like"?

Not any more so than my T500.

It feels like it was built with a lot tighter manufacturing tolerances, but it doesn't feel any sturdier.

Even the 600 that I got in near-new condition recently (thanks eBay!) doesn't feel like it's any stronger than my T500. It does feel like they had a far, far, *far* more stringent QA process, but it doesn't feel like it's any stronger. In fact, at least with regards to the screen, I'd say it's probably a bit weaker than the T500. Apples to oranges due to the screen size, I know, but still...