ThinkPad T410 review

[ThinkRob]

After about a week with a new T410, I've written up my thoughts on it and am linking them here in case anyone is interested:

A strongly-opinionated user's review of the Lenovo ThinkPad T410


(Posted to my site and linked here so as to avoid surrender of copyright.)

[Navck]

Interesting, it seems I got some special "high rigidity" keyboard. Consider calling Lenovo and asking them for a replacement. If you do, I'll be happy to give you the FRU # of mine.

As for the lid, you wouldn't have a T4x series in 15" would you? The T410 for me seems to improve the LCD's resistance to torsion. I wouldn't be able to say anything about how it performs against a Tx00 series in rigidity but I would have to say it has its own merits on the engineering side. It also doesn't use CFRP for the lid's construction but "High Elasticity" Polycarbonate. CFRP is still used for the base shell.

[ThinkRob]

Interesting, it seems I got some special "high rigidity" keyboard. Consider calling Lenovo and asking them for a replacement. If you do, I'll be happy to give you the FRU # of mine.

If you post the FRU here I'll take a look and see if it's the same as mine.

It wouldn't surprise me if there were different backplates. I know that for the X200, there were (at least) two different backplate designs, and although both were perforated one was tangibly better than the other.

As for the lid, you wouldn't have a T4x series in 15" would you? The T410 for me seems to improve the LCD's resistance to torsion. I wouldn't be able to say anything about how it performs against a Tx00 series in rigidity but I would have to say it has its own merits on the engineering side. It also doesn't use CFRP for the lid's construction but "High Elasticity" Polycarbonate. CFRP is still used for the base shell.

As a matter of fact, I do. The T410 seems to be ever-so-slightly worse than my T43p in that regard, although I haven't tried subjecting either to acute stress; IMHO the difference is so small as to be inconsequential. I suppose that speaks well of the material though [that it can compare favorably to the T4x], as they abandoned the clamshell design, yet maintained most of the rigidity.

[Navck]

Odd, my T43 seems to perform unfavorably compared to the T410 in torsional rigidity for the LCD, the T43's LCD starts to change colors first.
Then again, the T43 only has a magnesium fiber reinforced lid and the T410 has an "high elasticity" polycarbonate lid.

I'll post my keyboard FRU when I get a chance. Perhaps I did win the lottery on my T410, it seems to be an overall improvement over the T43 and the LCD's quality isn't bad at all compared to the IPS screen.

[ZaZ]

given Lenovo's obsession with cutting costs and "modernizing" the brand, but this somewhat schizophrenic approach to engineering is somewhat puzzling to say the least.

That's because most buyers don't care about this stuff. Lenovo must balance features with the number one buying factor for people, which is cost.

As to the screens, I don't know if you've seen older Thinkpad screens, but other the Flexviews, there was nothing special about them. My R60 and T41 were just as crappy if not worse than what's being offered on Thinkpads today. At least the newer screens are brighter. The reality is the direct competitors for Thinkpads, Elitebooks and Latitudes, aren't offering anything significantly better than what's being offered on Thinkpads. Until that happens, Lenovo has no real incentive to offer anything better because as soon as they raise prices to offer something better, they'll lose business, my opinion of course.

[ThinkRob]

Then again, the T43 only has a magnesium fiber reinforced lid and the T410 has an "high elasticity" polycarbonate lid.

The T4x lid isn't just reinforced to magnesium -- it's made of a magnesium alloy.

That's because most buyers don't care about this stuff. Lenovo must balance features with the number one buying factor for people, which is cost.

I appreciate that, but I'm still confused. It's not that they're changing things for cost that's the confusing bit, but rather how they're changing them. They seem to be changing aspects of a design in a way that makes it more sensitive to manufacturing deviances rather than less sensitive -- which is exactly the opposite of what you'd expect from a company that's trying to save on QA costs. The solid backplate of the T6x series' keyboard, for example, is much, much more forgiving of poorly-fitting chassis components than it's successor.

I don't think they're bad machines, and while I don't think that their QA is any worse than most major manufacturers it's also not any better. I also think that their design and engineering teams sometimes forget that fact when coming up with new designs.

As to the screens, I don't know if you've seen older Thinkpad screens, but other the Flexviews, there was nothing special about them.

Sadly, I have a fairly small basis for comparison here: I've only seen a 600, 600E, X60, and X61s. IMHO, it's worse than those by a fair bit -- but you're right, they're not spectacular either. My remarks were mainly driven by comparisons of the T410s to other screens on similarly-sized laptops. It's not just bad compared to IPS/AFFS panels -- it's bad compared to other TN panels.

I'm not so sure the pricing argument is correct. With my X200, at least, it wasn't just that they chose a bad TN panel -- it's that they literally chose the worst TN panel available from AUO. AUO made several nicer panels that were only marginally more expensive (a couple dollars more per unit when purchased in lots of a couple hundred), and I can't help but think that there is something else at play other than price. Perhaps it's a question of multi-sourcing; Lenovo has stated several times that they're uncomfortable with having only a single supplier for a given part, so perhaps the poor LCDs are coming from alternate sources?

I'm sure price *does* have something to do with why they don't ship the absolute best TN panels though.

And that reminds me: hasn't Lenovo learned from tales of Apple and Dell that the race to the bottom does not end well?

[Navck]

The T4x lid isn't just reinforced to magnesium -- it's made of a magnesium alloy.

Installing blinds and a shower head makes me feel lazy and not type out "magnesium composite cover" in full if you want to be picky about that.

I have no idea about the keyboard fuss besides that my T43 has a less "solid" keyboard (Thai) and my aunt's T42 is OK (Chicony?) but nothing in comparison to what I consider a mini Model M "lite."

As for manufacturing tolerances, you should see how solid and formfitting the Macbook slab is and how it isn't very good for the planar. I'm not saying that everything needs to be lower in component tolerances (Turbines, harddrives) but for a laptop you want a little "wiggle room" for various things like thermal expansion and being able to take shock.

I feel stupid for this, however. I had taken a photo for my T410 topic because no one really took their T410 apart for a review. Just as I was at the keyboard staring the sticker down I remembered that. Whatever, that was another excuse to clean the fan of dust, again.
Parts 45N2036
FRU 45N2071
ID 9CP4H6
Model C9-USE

By the way, have you checked if the small metal leaf springs in the chassis are touching the keyboard? They're supposed to provide some pressure so that the keyboard mounts nicely. If they're not, use your finger and lift them a little (1-3mm) so that they give proper support for the keyboard.

Oh, my aunt's T42 has a very... Atrocious screen but nothing as bad as a fleet of Latitude D620s I've used. The T42 had a very bright but low contrast and unsaturated screen, the D620? Well, lets say that "low contrast" and "unsaturated" would be flattering comments to it, seeing you coulde overlook the in

[pianowizard]

Oh, my aunt's T42 has a very... Atrocious screen but nothing as bad as a fleet of Latitude D620s I've used.

I have seen several D620's whose screens were indeed terrible, and many of Dell's current laptops also have crappy screens. HOWEVER, for their premium models such as the Latitude E6510, Dell usually offers additional higher-quality options (i.e. their so-called "UltraSharp" panels), and so did IBM for the 15.0" T42 and T43 and Lenovo for the 15.0" T60. People aren't really criticizing Lenovo's crappy screens per se, but the fact that Lenovo isn't offering better options for those of us who can afford them. Lenovo offers a wide range of processor speeds, RAM sizes, hard drive sizes, screen resolutions, etc., but why can't they offer a range of LCD qualities as well?

[dr_st]

Thank you for the review, ThinkRob.

As T410 may very well be my next corporate-issues laptop, it's nice to know what to expect. Although, truth be told, some folks already have it, so I've had a chance to become slightly familiar with it.

Overall, while not flawless, I find it a significant step up from the previous generation (T61/T400). The design, as you noticed, is much cleaner, and the keyboard/screen, while maybe not as good as was seen on some Thinkpads in the past, are at least not worse than those on the direct predecessor.

People aren't really criticizing Lenovo's crappy screens per se, but the fact that Lenovo isn't offering better options for those of us who can afford them.

Actually, they do. If you look at the T510/W510 (which is the equivalent to the E6510 from DELL), you'll find that the screens, while TN, are much nicer than the low-end crap everyone has been complaining about. And it's been the case for some time - better options seem to be more available in the 15" size, especially high resolutions (i.e. the 15.4" WSXGA+ screens on TRZ6x/TR500, which are considered by many to be the best non-IPS screens every offered on Thinkpads).

[pianowizard]

Actually, they do. If you look at the T510/W510 (which is the equivalent to the E6510 from DELL), you'll find that the screens, while TN, are much nicer than the low-end crap everyone has been complaining about.

You misunderstood me. What I was saying was, Lenovo should offer both low and high quality options for the same model, e.g. the T410. The T410 is equivalent to Dell's Latitude E6410, for which Dell offers an UltraSharp option besides the standard crappy screen.

[dr_st]

You misunderstood me. What I was saying was, Lenovo should offer both low and high quality options for the same model, e.g. the T410. The T410 is equivalent to Dell's Latitude E6410, for which Dell offers an UltraSharp option besides the standard crappy screen.

But is it actually better? Just because calling it "Ultrasharp" does not necessarily mean much. I would love to hear from someone who actually used one and can compare it to current Thinkpad offerings in the 14" range.

[FragrantHead]

Saw a poll about the most popular notebook screen size, I forget where it was. 14" came out on top, followed, I think, by 13". I'd count myself in that group. The 12" tablet too small, the 15" T510 too big and heavy (I went for the T410s).

If there is a question about the Ultrasharp quality, then how about the HP Envy 14" model with the Radiance screen option. $200 - $300 surcharge, but apparently a spectacular notebook screen with very low black levels and 850:1 measured contrast.

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Review-HP- ... 788.0.html

Demand seems to be outstripping supply too. Not 16:10, so not a drop-in for the T410...

I too have been wondering about Lenovo's rationale for their engineering and choice of components. Perhaps low weight is the driving factor? The HP Envy, for example, is quite heavy, though that may not be due to the screen.

[pianowizard]

But is it actually better? Just because calling it "Ultrasharp" does not necessarily mean much. I would love to hear from someone who actually used one and can compare it to current Thinkpad offerings in the 14" range.

Yes it's actually better. Dell used to have a page explaining that UltraSharp screens have wider viewing angles and better colors than their standard laptop screens. Unfortunately I can't find that page any more and the closest thing I found is this discussion on notebookreview: http://forum.notebookreview.com/dell/53 ... -mean.html .

For Dell's external LCDs, I think all UltraSharp models use PVA, MVA or IPS whereas all other models use TN. I don't know if that's also true for Dell's laptops.

I too have been wondering about Lenovo's rationale for their engineering and choice of components. Perhaps low weight is the driving factor?

Probably a combination of cost, weight, and lower power consumption. But there are lots of customers who don't mind paying $100 more or sacrificing 5 minutes of battery duration or carrying 0.05 lb more to get much better LCD quality. It's a pity Lenovo doesn't seem to understand that.

[ZaZ]

But there are lots of customers who don't mind paying $100 more or sacrificing 5 minutes of battery duration or carrying 0.05 lb more to get much better LCD quality.

But is it significant enough for Lenovo to pay attention and $100 seems kind of low. How about $200-300? HP charges $300 for the Radiance display on the Envy 14, which is supposed to be much better than the standard LCD. If I recall correctly, Lenovo charged $250 to upgrade to the Flexview on the T60. It'd be interesting if HP or Lenovo said what percentage of buyers bought the upgrade.

[pianowizard]

But is it significant enough for Lenovo to pay attention and $100 seems kind of low. How about $200-300? HP charges $300 for the Radiance display on the Envy 14, which is supposed to be much better than the standard LCD. If I recall correctly, Lenovo charged $250 to upgrade to the Flexview on the T60.

Of course upgrading from the worst TN panel to the best IPS panel would cost $200 to $300. But it would cost much less to upgrade from a bottom-of-the-line TN panel (like those used in many of the recent Thinkpads) to a top-of-the-line TN panel (such as those used in the Thinkpads dr_st listed several posts above).

[ZaZ]

Of course upgrading from the worst TN panel to the best IPS panel would cost $200 to $300. But it would cost much less to upgrade from a bottom-of-the-line TN panel (like those used in many of the recent Thinkpads) to a top-of-the-line TN panel (such as those used in the Thinkpads dr_st listed several posts above).

Don't you think if were as easy as buying better screens and offering them to their customers at higher prices, Lenovo would do so? There must be some reasoning behind why they do not.

[pianowizard]

Don't you think if were as easy as buying better screens and offering them to their customers at higher prices, Lenovo would do so? There must be some reasoning behind why they do not.

Well, Dell has been doing it for years. How come Lenovo can't do the same thing?

[dr_st]

For Dell's external LCDs, I think all UltraSharp models use PVA, MVA or IPS whereas all other models use TN. I don't know if that's also true for Dell's laptops.

While Ultrasharp generally implies something better, even some of DELL's desktop LCDs marketed as "Ultrasharp" come with TN panels. As far as their laptop screens, while they do mention wide viewing angles on some, so far I have not seen or heard of any non-TN laptop screen in any DELL laptop. But as mentioned, not all TN are alike.

[pianowizard]

While Ultrasharp generally implies something better, even some of DELL's desktop LCDs marketed as "Ultrasharp" come with TN panels.

And I confirmed that you are correct by going to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_monitors . As you can see in that table, 1707FP, 1708FP, 1907FP and 1908FP use TN panels, even though they are called UltraSharp. But most of the other UltraSharp monitors are non-TN.

But as mentioned, not all TN are alike.

Indeed, the best TN screens can look sooooooo much better than the worst ones. For example, a friend of mine has a T60 with an excellent 15.6" 1680x1050 TN screen. It's so good that I couldn't tell it's TN until I viewed it at a very sharp angle. For laptops, I actually prefer a really good TN panel over IPS, because the former would cost much less, weigh a little less, consume less power, and probably lasts longer.

[ThinkRob]

Don't you think if were as easy as buying better screens and offering them to their customers at higher prices, Lenovo would do so? There must be some reasoning behind why they do not.

If the only options offered by any manufacturer were low-contrast, narrow-angle TN panels, I'd believe that. The problem is, a large number of manufacturers seem to manage to source better panels just fine, and many panel makers -- including a number of ones that Lenovo has existing relationships with -- make a range of grades of panels in the sizes that Lenovo uses. It's not like trying to find a source for IPS laptop panels, good TN panels are fairly easy to find, and there are a number of manufacturers that can provide panels considerably better than what Lenovo ships.

As to why don't they? I genuinely think it's because most users don't care. Yes, reviewers and enthusiasts care and complain loudly, but most users -- especially those in corporate environments -- just don't care all that much. If display quality were a deciding factor for most of Lenovo's customers, I'm positive they'd start adding better panels, no question; they're not stupid, and if their earnings are to be believed, they're doing a good job of producing computers that appeal to their customers.

Overall, while not flawless, I find it a significant step up from the previous generation (T61/T400).

Absolutely. I don't have a T400 (I have a T500), but I've used a T400 and I'd definitely agree that the T410 is an overall improvement.

As for manufacturing tolerances, you should see how solid and formfitting the Macbook slab is and how it isn't very good for the planar. I'm not saying that everything needs to be lower in component tolerances (Turbines, harddrives) but for a laptop you want a little "wiggle room" for various things like thermal expansion and being able to take shock.

Hmm... perhaps I didn't explain my position very well. I don't think that Lenovo needs to make everything seamless and form-fitting. Instead, I'm suggesting that they shouldn't design their keyboard to be heavily dependent on a tight fit between two components unless their QA process is good enough to ensure that those components fit well.

[FragrantHead]

I don't know where I read the story of the manager who, when confronted with an iPad, exclaimed "Why isn't my laptop screen like that?". Is it that people don't care or that they're ignorant about what's possible?

[ThinkRob]

Is it that people don't care or that they're ignorant about what's possible?

Probably a good bit of both.