Buyer's Remorse

[drs]

I have been using a T60 for a number of years now. It is just old enough to still say IBM on it, even though i bought it through the Lenovo site. It is on it's last legs -- the fan, which is out of alignment and is super loud, periodically stops working leading to the whole machine overheating and shutting down, several the USB ports run at 1.1 speeds (likely because I fried them plugging in some hardware that I built), if the video is stressed at all (animated gifs are enough) it interferes with USB audio, etc. Maybe these are driver issues, maybe it is just too old for modern video stuff, etc., but I have been fighting with some of these issues for years with no luck. And, trying to run Illustrator/sketchup/photoshop is a real chore. I'm on the second screen, the third HDD, the third battery, the 3rd DVD drive, etc.

But, issues aside, the T60 is, in design terms, just about the perfect computer to me. Any bigger would be too big, but any smaller would be awkward. The keyboard is perfect, and perfectly worn in. Really, even from day 1, everything about the form factor just felt right. And, the screen is visible from all angles -- close to 180 degrees. Reading here, I gather that this is not the case any longer.

Anyway, I ordered a T410 a few weeks ago -- apparently right before they announced the T420, oh well, I guess I saved a few $ It arrived yesterday, and, well, it sucks. What on earth happened to make these things get thicker and heavier from t60 days? Yes, I could have bought the "s" version, but the $ and speed hit seemed like too much, and the reviews (cracked palm rests) on this site have been awful. But, overall, this thing is just too big. The keyboard positioning is poor. The bevel around the screen is too thick -- if they made that thinner and took 3/4" off the overall width (and took the stupid speakers off from the side of the keyboard where they are just going to get filled with crud) this would make a huge difference. The keyboard is not up to IBM Thinkpad standards and feels just so-so, the layout is not comfortable, and the overall design is just, well, ugly. There is nothing nice looking or feeling about it. I haven't even turned it on yet.

Frankly, there are two reasons for me to buy a Thinkpad -- trackpoint and the keyboard. Well, Dell sells a computer with a nipple mouse, and the keyboard on the T410 is just nothing special anymore. Am I overreacting?

So, do I just suck it up? -- a T420 is not going to be any better with the 16x9 screen as I spend my time typing words on the screen meaning that I really prefer a 4x3. And, other than the Dell which costs almost as much, there aren't many options out there. The X series is simply too small. Do people just get used to this? Is everything junkier than it used to be? I guess I can get a docking station, some external monitors turned 90 degrees, but then why did I buy a laptop. Tell me I'm not the only one who things this design is poorly conceived.

[Colonel O'Neill]

It was probably made thicker for the purposes of structural integrity rather than aesthetics. Same with the LCD bezel. Heavier is probably due to more heatsink as a result of faster. There's not really any other place for the speakers to go.

I don't see how the layout is significantly different apart from the ESC and Delete keys. The gap between keys was tightened a bit to make it more difficult for stuff to get into the keyboard plate. Two T510 keyboards I've tried are superlative; they're quieter without losing the clickiness.

4:3 is gone for now, and 16:10 is just about to pass. Consumer demand is simply overpowering the necessity for practicality. Same with Flexview (IPS) panels for the corporate market.

[comps]

Is everything junkier than it used to be?

Well, the reality is .. that it is. Even thinkpads evolved from excellent work tools to somewhat mainstream laptops - business reasons. You can't expect the same "indestructable" feel from the newer series, there's obviously a "how crappy/cheap we can go" race to make the thinkpads as cheap to make as possible, while keeping the prices high. The reason is again simple - profit. Lenovo is not the one company to blame, it couldn't probably make high-quality laptops "just like that", because there are tons of other manufacturers/brands.

Think about the reasons that made IBM sell the Thinkpad series.

So - no, don't expect to find a really sturdy laptop for everyday use. Sure, there are things like Panasonic Toughbook CF-18, but ... just look at the specs/price ratio, you're better off with older T-series thinkpad if you can't stand T4x0 / T5x0

[drs]

I think it's that it just doesn't feel like a T series -- more like an A, or worse. T's traditionally struck a balance between power and size, but this is clearly leaning toward power with no concessions for it being a laptop. It is like how a 2010 Honda Civic is now larger than a 1992 Honda Accord, while it should be going to other way.

And the keyboard layout difference is that it moved closer to the screen.

[dr_st]

FWIW, the T410 is lighter than your T60, even though it is thicker. Yes, that's a fact (assuming similar batteries of course).

Everything else - well, things inevitably change. I have both a T60 and a T410, and like them both for different reasons; I too would prefer a 4:3 laptop, but as was said - they just don't make them anymore, and doesn't look like they are going to return to them any time soon. You might as well be satisfied knowing that you got one of the last 8:5 machines in existence - as you clearly know the T420 is 16:9. If thickness is important to you, you may want to consider trading this one for a T420 - the lid is thinner on the latter.

[ThinkRob]

The T410 is thicker than the T60. It is not, however, heavier.

I have to dispute the keyboard complaint though. Once shimmed, the T410's keyboard is quite good. I've got a pretty solid basis for comparison too: I've used the keyboards of the 600 series, X40-series, T40-series, X60-series, T60-series, and the T400-series plus a few other models. Does it feel different than its predecessors? Absolutely. But I wouldn't say it's inferior. In fact, I think it's one of the better keyboards that I've used recently. The activation energy is fairly low, but the actual activation point is remarkably consistent across the entire keyboard, and the feel is quite pleasing (at least to my touch.)

Regarding the screen: it sounds like you had one of the models with a FlexView (aka IPS or AFFS) screen. Yeah, those are gone. They're also gone from nearly every other manufacturer's lineup, and in some cases are hard to get even from the manufacturers that do offer them. Welcome to the world of the Facebook generation; laptops aren't primarily work machines anymore, and quality screens are one of the many casualties of the race to the bottom driven by the casual user. Not much to be done about that I'm afraid.

[Brian10161]

I don't know if you can return the T410 and get your money back. If you can, why not get a second hand T60/T61 (if you like the 4:3 like I do, there is a T61 variant with that display).

I got my T60 for about 200 CAD with shipping and I haven't looked back. Best computer I have ever owned by far. I know it may be a few years old, but with an SSD in it, it really flies.

Good luck sir!

Regards,
Brian

[pianowizard]

laptops aren't primarily work machines anymore, and quality screens are one of the many casualties of the race to the bottom driven by the casual user.

By contrast, desktop monitors are getting better and better. Given the decline in laptop quality, it really makes sense to use desktops as primary computers, or at least hook up one's laptop to an external monitor. Use a laptop only when mobility is required.

[ZaZ]

Welcome to the world of the Facebook generation; laptops aren't primarily work machines anymore, and quality screens are one of the many casualties of the race to the bottom driven by the casual user. Not much to be done about that I'm afraid.

Lenovo sells most of computers to businesses and government. They care very little about screen quality and are most concerned about unit cost. That's how you end up with products like the X120e, which gets the job done and costs the least. Gone are the days when most businesses will drop $2k on notebook.

The other issue is screen manufacturers offer the best prices on 16:9 screens. For Lenovo to buck trend and offer something different, it would make their notebooks more expensive and probably cost them sales because buyers care about cost the most. The consumer side of things isn't large enough to move the market.

As for the buyers remorse, there's always some of it when you spend a good chunk of change. Give it a bit to see if you truly don't like it. You can return it, but you're looking at a 15% restocking fee.

[drs]

The T410 is thicker than the T60.

Ultimately, that seems to be what is bothering me the most. The move in the laptop world has been for sleeker, thinner, machines. And yes, I know, the "s" is thinner, but I didn't think that that would have meant that the non "s" was fatter. In the end, it just isn't a laptop so much as a desktop with a built-in screen. Had I been able to try it in a store, I would have known this and bought something else, probably an "s".

As for the buyers remorse, there's always some of it when you spend a good chunk of change.

No, I was pretty giddy to get this, and I was genuinely shocked when I took it out of the box.

I don't know if you can return the T410 and get your money back.

As I understand it, I can't since I opened the plastic bag. I guess I'll give them a call anyway. I'd rather eat the 15% than be disappointed for the 12 hours/day I seem to be in contact with a computer. Otherwise, I think it goes up on ebay.

Anyway, sorry to be such a complainer. I really was excited to get this, and I really can't believe that I'm the only one who thinks this is an absolutely horrible design that is just coasting on the Thinkpad name. Very disappointing.

[dr_st]

In the end, it just isn't a laptop so much as a desktop with a built-in screen.

What a huge exaggeration for about 3-5mm of extra thickness.

I do feel the difference in thickness when I carry the machines around (T410 is about the same as the 15" T60, whereas 14" T60 is slimmer). But that's the only time when you feel it, and it doesn't really make it harder to grip.

I really can't believe that I'm the only one who thinks this is an absolutely horrible design that is just coasting on the Thinkpad name.

Nothing new. Whenever something changes, some percentage of people is always going to see the bad before the good. People have been saying this about the T60 design versus T4x, for example.

I have seen and played with every T-series installment since the T42 time. I still consider T60 to be overall the best in terms of design. Part of it is just the availability of the 4:3 screen. However, between that and the T410, there were two generations of T series which I consider to be terrible design-wise. In contrast with them, the T410 is a breath of fresh air.

[pianowizard]

I really don't get it. Why do people care so much about laptop thinness? It seems that these days people are even more concerned about thinness than weight. Once you put it into your backpack or carrying case, it's the weight that matters, not thinness. Of course, a 3-inch-thick laptop would look gross, but we are arguing over several mm here.

[ThinkRob]

I currently have a T410, 14.1" T60, 15.1" T60p and a 15.1" T43p in my house. I'm rebuilding the T60p, but the others I use regularly. The *only* time I notice the thickness is when I've got them side by side, and even then the only one that really seems significantly thinner is the 14.1" T60 -- which makes sense, considering that it's the only one of the 4:3 machines with a (thinner) TN panel.

I guess if it was on the road every day and if my bag were absolutely stuffed the very limit it *might* make a difference. Still, I take at least two laptops to/from work most days (the T410 is my dev. machine, the T60 my personal), and I can't ever say I've felt that the extra couple millimeters mattered.

Anyway, sorry to be such a complainer. I really was excited to get this, and I really can't believe that I'm the only one who thinks this is an absolutely horrible design that is just coasting on the Thinkpad name. Very disappointing.

Aside from the extra couple millimeters of thickness, what makes you say that?

Honestly, in this thread it seems like you decided you were going to dislike the machine before you even got it, and then (once you got it) started looking for things to confirm that decision. I'm not saying that's what's going on, but it does kinda come off that way.

I suspect that I and others are having a hard time sympathizing since 1) the dimensions of all T series machines are readily available 2) there are numerous photos and YouTube videos showing off the various T series machines 3) you bought the T410, not the T410s 4) you're exaggerating the differences pretty substantially, and following it up with a pretty strong criticism of a machine that has been generally quite well-received.

[khergert]

I understand the "older is better" as much as the next guy. In the last 6 months, my dell xps gen 1 and m1210 took a fatal dump. My R40, t60p w/ssd are still working fine. I remember how the 60 series is not as good as the t43p and so on. I don't mind your complaints. At least you know what you want.

Did Lenovo issue a RMA and did they want 15% restock fee? You could always offer it to the group.

There are a few t61p's on ebay with remaining warranty if you really want to stay with the older stuff. Pay a little more and there are t500's with 18 months of remaining warranty. Personally, I'm holding out of the t520's with a lot of stackable coupons.

My complaint is external monitors. I got a bunch of Thinkvision t191p's that work well and I want some new monitors. I'm too cheap to toss good monitors. By good, most and never been shut off in years. Never was very good at complaining.

/ / / / / / / /

Ultimately, that seems to be what is bothering me the most. The move in the laptop world has been for sleeker, thinner, machines. And yes, I know, the "s" is thinner, but I didn't think that that would have meant that the non "s" was fatter. In the end, it just isn't a laptop so much as a desktop with a built-in screen. Had I been able to try it in a store, I would have known this and bought something else, probably an "s".

[pianowizard]

I understand the "older is better" as much as the next guy. In the last 6 months, my dell xps gen 1 and m1210 took a fatal dump. My R40, t60p w/ssd are still working fine.

Actually, I am pretty sure that the XPS Gen 1, which came out in 2004, is older than your T60p. Any laptop that lasts for over 6 years is pretty good. And the m1210 is affected by Nvidia's defective GPUs, just like the Thinkpad T61.

My complaint is external monitors. I got a bunch of Thinkvision t191p's that work well and I want some new monitors. I'm too cheap to toss good monitors.

Sell them on Craigslist and get something new. Like I said above, there are lots of great monitors now, though you'd need to get them online because Best Buy, Micro Center etc. only have the cheapest and crappiest ones.

[waterloo]

Does your laptop have strange hissing noises??
Also, 21 day return policy could help .

[RWDPLZ]

All Thinkpads have their pros and cons. When I got my T61 that replaced my A31p, I loved how it was wider, thinner, lighter, and faster, but to this day can't stand the SXGA+ screen compared to the UXGA. And before that, the best Thinkpad keyboard ever on my old 770ED when I moved to the A31p. It would be nice if there was a single leap forward though, instead of this three steps forward, one step back nonsense.

Also with the T61, the 6 cell battery VS the 9 cell battery makes a HUGE weight difference.

[miketoro]

I don't know if you can return the T410 and get your money back. If you can, why not get a second hand T60/T61 (if you like the 4:3 like I do, there is a T61 variant with that display).

+1 There are a lot of guys on this forum that sell quality used machines in the Marketplace at reasonable prices. You could get a mint T60/61 with maxed out memory and an SSD for less than that T410. Lenovo, I recently found out, is pretty good with returns.

[LRoy]

You're not alone. I just bought a new (loaded) T510 to replace my old T42p and am not impressed. I even mentioned to my wife a couple days ago that I need to check on the return options though I haven't done so yet.

In addition to the design issues you point out I'm having issues with both wireless access and video switching. The wireless might be fixed by ditching Access Connections but I am not entirely sure yet.

On the bright side - it's quieter then all the other Thinkpads here and the LED screen brightness is appreciated.

[miketoro]

You're not alone.

The days when you could happily buy the latest greatest ThinkPad without researching them into the ground are over.

[Adda]

I just don't get it, the new ThinkPads I have tried (W510, T400s and X200, W500/T500/T400 NOT included) are some of the best ThinkPads I have ever used.
The new keyboards are better then the loved thai NMB keyboards found on the older T40/R50 models in my opinion it even beats my old A30!
As for built quality the new models are awesome, very stiff and rugged, the older T40/T30/T20 models had problems with chassis flex, the new ones don't.
The hinges are excellent, you can open the laptop with one hand, the hinges are just right so that the entire laptop is not lifted as you open the lid, just like an A30.
As far as I can see there are only three problems with the new models, poor quality control, plastics could look nicer as on the X200 and the new ultrabay eject system, but ThinkPads are MUCH cheaper then they used to be so...
When ever I handle a T20 or T40 they may feel nice to the touch due to good materials, but their structure lacks rigidity which causes all kinds of problems like failing video cards, but this is also due to poor cooling in the older models.

Since the IBM logo was replaced with the Lenovo logo people seem to complain about problems with their ThinkPads but they forget that the IBM models had serious problems of their own, lemme list some for you:

T2x had bad battery charger circuitry that had a habit of dieing preventing the laptop form running off battery.
Also the T2x had a flimsy chassis that broke and cracked in strange places because the hinges where not attached to the chassis in a good way, oh and keyboard flex on some models.
T30 had a bad memory slot and the video card was insufficiently cooled so if often died.
A3x/p had a bad cooling solution so many things can fail on their motherboards.
T4x/p and R5x/p had a flexy chassis and insufficient cooling so their video cards often failed.

Certain problems with certain ThinkPads is nothing new.
The only really bad thing, is that we no longer have is UXGA IPS screens, but as always it is still possible to get good screens on a ThinkPad.
Look at the IBM models, which models apart form the IPS ones actually had good screens, none of them, the average ThinkPads screen is way better then they used to be.

[pianowizard]

I just don't get it, the new ThinkPads I have tried (W510, T400s and X200, W500/T500/T400 NOT included) are some of the best ThinkPads I have ever used.

All these complaints you have heard are partly because the perception of quality is relative. Specifically, this perception depends on the quality of other brands, and on people's expectations. 10 to 15 years ago, the Thinkpads were clearly the industry-leading brand. Also, because the laptop industry was still fairly young, people were willing to accept a few technical imperfections. But now, in 2011, laptops have been around for so long that people expect them to be better made and are less willing to accept even the tiniest issues. Moreover, other brands have drastically improved their quality in the last few years, and the Thinkpads no longer stand out as far as quality is concerned.

Another way to put it: The T520 is *supposed* to be vastly better than the T20. If the former is only slightly better than the latter, it's perceived as a decline in quality.

[Adda]

Moreover, other brands have drastically improved their quality in the last few years, and the Thinkpads no longer stand out as far as quality is concerned.

I agree that other brands have improved quite a lot from the users perspective.
HP's are decent machines, but their keyboard and trackpoints are not as good a on ThinkPads.
Dell's are nice as well, the new models even seem to mimic the ThinkPad look, but unless they have improved the keyboard but especially the touchpad and trackpoint, they are barely usable without a dedicated mouse.

But when you take HP's and Dell's apart it becomes obvious that they are not nearly as thoroughly designed as ThinkPads are.
I'm only talking about business models of cause.

MacBook's are not business machines so I leave them out, they have not been made to be used, but to impress.

[ThinkRob]

The days when you could happily buy the latest greatest ThinkPad without researching them into the ground are over.

For me, the days when I could happily but the latest greatest laptop without researching ended when I started buying my own laptops.

Since the IBM logo was replaced with the Lenovo logo people seem to complain about problems

I tend to think this has something to do with it. I recently had a discussion in which someone was complaining about the build quality of the T400, saying that "my last ThinkPad was better, too bad IBM doesn't make them anymore." He was referring to the "IBM" T60 that proceeded his T400. Branding matters.

It'd be fun to see a satirical review of some of the older ThinkPads, but done in the style of some of the reviews of Lenovo's ThinkPads. (e.g. "While some people may find the 600's keyboard comfortable to type on, I was constantly bothered by the clacking sound it produced, which I believe to be due to the cheap plastic used in its construction.")

[pianowizard]

Branding matters.

Thinkpad owners who complain about their Lenovo Thinkpads aren't imagining problems simply because they are prejudiced against Lenovo. Think about it, if they had bias against Lenovo, why did they buy that laptop in the first place? But I agree that their explanation of these problems ("Because it's made by Lenovo, not IBM") is irrational.

[Adda]

I think branding does have an effect.
IBM has a reputation of making solid products and having done so since the 1930's.
Lenovo is a Chinese newcomer, who has made a lot of changes to a very impressive product line IBM originally developed, the blasphemy! They even got cheaper so they can't be better then the older ones... right?
And on top of this Lenovo have made a few mistakes like the T/W500 and T400 with their cheap plastics and flexy keyboards (they did fix BOTH of these problems on later versions of these machines).

I think that since IBM's reputation is so good, people might have thought "awesome" by default when they got a ThinkPad, because they trusted IBM.
With a Lenovo ThinkPad with all their changes, people are more likely to be suspicious by default, maybe with good reason.

[nxman]

I used to think the T400 was the worst ThinkPad ever till i tried the T410!

[ThinkRob]

I used to think the T400 was the worst ThinkPad ever till i tried the T410!

Honestly, I think the T410 is a massive improvement on the T400. The T400 didn't wear nearly as well as the T60 did. The fitting between parts tends to loosen pretty quickly on the T400, especially if it's being used hard. (Where I work has a very, very large fleet of ThinkPads, and many of them see quite heavy field use.) The T410s that I've seen (plus the one that I own) haven't exhibited any of that so far. Yeah, the screen lid feels a lot more flexible due to the removal of the roll cage, but apart from that they seem to hold up a heck of a lot better.

As far as "worst ever", I don't think that label belongs to the T400. The T4x series, perhaps, due to the planar flex issues. Or maybe the T2x for the RAM slot failures. But not the T400. It may not hold up terribly well, but unlike some of its predecessors, it does hold up.

[dr_st]

If you rate the laptops from best to worst solely based on how they hold up, you're assessment is probably correct, but there can be other factors people would consider, such as design, looks, feature set in comparison to what's common at the time...

[ThinkRob]

If you rate the laptops from best to worst solely based on how they hold up, you're assessment is probably correct, but there can be other factors people would consider, such as design, looks, feature set in comparison to what's common at the time...

Fair point. I'm wildly biased towards 4:3, so I can certainly understand how one might harbor some resentment towards a widescreen monster like the T400!