Thinkpads Forum

I like my current T60 but I think it is the time to get something new. Help me for arguments towards the T520.

T520: 1.000 USD
- docking. Both the notebook itself and the optical drive can be docked to either the docking station or the notebook.
- 2,5 kg with DVD burner. 9 hours. 6 real hours?
- good FHD display quality
- repairable, hardware maintenance manual.

Panasonic B10 2.000 USD
- 1,88 kg with DVD burner. 6 hours. 4 real hours?
- Panasonic battery
- droppable 30 cm height
- display quality untested. Although on the videos of the panasonic.jp website the display looks nice.

Both have:
- 15.6 inch 16:9 FHD display
- digital output: Panasonic has HDMI while the T520 has displayport
- relatively rugged and physically stable

I would take the T520 - Known good screen, some variation of a thinkpad keyboard, *should* survive a drop of 30cm, the displayport can be converted to HDMI with an adapter (I don't know if you can go the other way) Thinkpads also have a larger community around them (here ) and there are more specialized software for them ie. tpfancontrol. Without further details about what you are looking for or what you want to do with it, that is my opinion.

The only real diffrence you have noted is the battery cells, but if you can live with 4hrs of "real" battery life, then use that and the degradation of the thinkpad battery should not affect you for a couple of years anyway .

Thanks for your input.

HDMI is a non-issue for me, I have to buy a cable anyway and I don't care wheter it is a DVI-HDMI or a DVI-displayport cable.

Older panasonics notebooks could be set in BIOS to be "silent" and then the fan did not turn on. I am not sure if the current panasonic line can do the same. I am used to a completely silent notebook.

The only difference I care really about is the weight. I could carry an iPad together with the Panasonic B10 and would have around the weight of a Thinkpad T520 alone.

You need to post this poll on a more neutral forum, e.g. the NotebookReview forum. However, considering the following statement, I am not sure you really need a poll:

ssd_thinkpad wrote:The only difference I care really about is the weight.

If that's the only thing that you care about, then of course you should just go for the Panasonic. But make sure you try a Japanese/English keyboard before buying, because it is quite different from what you are used to.

ssd_thinkpad wrote:Panasonic B10 2.000 USD
- 1,88 kg with DVD burner.

According to this page, a B10 with an optional small battery weighs only 1.76 kg, or 3.88 lb. So, if you opt for this small battery, the weight difference between the B10 and the T520 becomes even more pronounced.

I'd really prefer taking a thinkpad again, that's why I posted here to get the best arguments.

Regarding the weight it is fair to keep the battery life in mind. The weight of the panasonic battery with 0,3 kg is rather light, but this means there is poor battery life compared to the thinkpad one. I can carry another battery pack with the panasonic and it is still lighter than the T520 while having then a much better battery life.

ssd_thinkpad wrote:I'd really prefer taking a thinkpad again

Then you may want to consider the T420(s) with 1600x900. Not as high res as 1920x1080or even 1400x1050, but may be just enough. If you find your 14.1" T60 too heavy, it makes no sense to get the T520.

Currently I have a very heavy T60 15 inch which weights around 2,5 kg without DVD and with SSD etc.

I prefer lower resolution - but a good display. I am rather picky about a "good display". I don't like both the SXGA+ and the UXGA displays as an example - and for me both are of the similar quality. The T400 series is know for its inferior display. The panasonic displays are not that good in the reviews although I have never read about a bad FHD 15.6 inch display, so maybe the notebooks share the same good panels - and panasonic also uses a good panel?

I could live with the display of the x40, and also with the one of the x60. I was horrified of the x301 display, though.

ThinkPads have gotten progressively lighter at the cost of added thickness, haven't they?

Both of my T400 LED LCD's were pretty good for most things which weren't demanding of color accuracy...

Also, I remember seeing that the HD+ screen has better angles and black level compared with the FHD panel. Not sure if that still holds.

ssd_thinkpad wrote:I could live with the display of the x40, and also with the one of the x60.

I am confused. In your PM, you said that a 13.1" screen would be way too small, but here you are saying 12.1" is fine. Also, in your post above, you wrote that you hate the weight of your 2.5kg T60, and yet you are considering the T520, which is just as heavy.

If you keep contradicting yourself like this, it would be difficult to have a meaningful discussion in this thread. So, please tell us EXACTLY what you want/need and what compromises are acceptable, so that we may be able to offer better suggestions. Try to be as clear and detailed as possible.

Hi! Please let the private messages be private.

I could live with the quality of the x40 and the x60 series - both displays were said to not have a great display quality. Though it was not great, but okay. Not okay was the quality of the x301 panel which received bad reviews, too. I am curious about the display quality of the panasonic panels.

Regarding my experiences with these small displays, I would like to learn from these and take a bigger display for my future notebook. It is a big difference for me working with a small or a larger monitor.

The weight of the T520 would be somewhat less if you put in a msata SSD (-80g), remove the ultrabay adapter (- maybe around 150g), and removing internals I don't need (expresscard etc.). So there is a difference between my stripped down T60 (with all these mentioned items already removed and still 2,5 kg) and the T520. But unfortunately not that noticeable.

The B10 has zero real extension options. Three USB 2.0 ports? Puh-leeze. T520 has ExpressCard and powered eSATA ports. Plenty.

craigmontHunter wrote:the displayport can be converted to HDMI with an adapter (I don't know if you can go the other way)

You can! I googled and found powered HDMI-to-DisplayPort adapters but the resolution was rather limited (1080p or so).

chx1975 wrote:You can! I googled and found powered HDMI-to-DisplayPort adapters but the resolution was rather limited (1080p or so).

Because HDMI can only handle 1920x1080 in almost all commonly encountered implementations. There are good reasons for using DisplayPort.

Some numbers to the weight that is very important for me, please be free to correct me:

Panasonic B10 with DVD with big battery (0,31 kg): 1,88 kg
Panasonic B10 with DVD with small battery (0,19 kg): 1,76 kg
Panasonic B10 without DVD (~ 0,1 kg less), battery: 1,47 kg
Panasonic B10 without DVD, battery, hdd, with supertalent corestore mpcia (~ 0,08 less): 1,39 kg
Panasonic B10 with 6 hours battery (2x0,31 kg), without DVD, hdd, with mpcia ssd: 2,00 kg

Thinkpad T520 with DVD with small battery (0.34 kg, 6 cell): 2,49 kg
Thinkpad T520 without ultrabay (~ 0,1 kg less), battery: 2,05 kg
Thinkpad T520 without ultrabay, battery, hdd, with msata (~ 0,08 kg less): 1,97 kg
Thinkpad T520 with 6 hours battery (1x0.34 kg) without ultrabay, hdd, with msata: 2,31 kg

Some notes and more assumptions: Power adapter is for both 0,2 kg and you use a ac plug instead of the cable for weight saving. msata works in Thinkpads, I don't know whether it works in panasonics, so I am thinking about the not so reliable supertalent corestore which is more expensive and harder to find, and directly should show up in the bios. I did not read a bad review about a FHD display so it maybe be possible that the panel in the panasonic is actually a good one which would be one of the first good panels in a panasonic let's note computer. Battery life of the T520 6 cell is around 6 hours+. Battery life of the Panasonic B10 is according to the only test I found - you can see the link in a later post - 3 hours for medium usage for the big battery.

ssd_thinkpad wrote:I did not read a bad review about a FHD display

Over on the NotebookReview forum, some Dell XPS 15z owners are very unhappy with their FHD screen, while others love it, probably because Dell obtains FHD panels from two sources. In other words, inferior 15.6" FHD panels are out there.

pianowizard wrote:Over on the NotebookReview forum, some Dell XPS 15z owners are very unhappy with their FHD screen, while others love it, probably because Dell obtains FHD panels from two sources. In other words, inferior 15.6" FHD panels are out there.

Thanks for the news. I expect then the panasonic panels to be not good unfortunately. Display quality was never the big advantage of panasonic let's note notebooks Maybe I could exchange a b10 with a t510/t520 panel?

Panasonic B10 review in japanese (use google translator): http://journal.mycom.co.jp/articles/201 ... index.html

The Sony SE Series just came out in the U.S. It's 15.5" 1920x1080, barely heavier (4.4 lb) than the Panasonic B10, but much cheaper, only $960. It's extremely tempting!

I have decided to give the Panasonic B10 a try. The new Premium Edition has 40% more battery capacity as well (64Wh vs 46Wh) which should translate into about 5h real-world-use (bright screen, WLAN) - hopefully the other B-models will get the same one.
As far as I know, the B10 (as all newer Panasonics) are nearly entirely made out of Magnesium-Thixo-Cast, not just some internal structures! Even fibre-enforced plastics tend to wear out rather quickly when forces are applied - magnesium does not.

The big issue with Sony is quality (isn`t it with all notebooks today?) - my Vaio Z (11, 18 months old) is my second and last Sony. Carbon fiber, aluminium - well nice, if it wasn`t all connected with plastics now breaking apart... The fan bearing failed after four weeks, the hinges after two! The touchpad starts to fail while being distorted from heat (it`s bending!)... The battery is loose, lasted 3 1/2h in the beginning, now it`s more like 2h.
The Full-HD-screen is awesome, the performance in this small package as well - real-world usability is a joke.
And this is the flagship, not the consumer S-line...

I`ve bought an old Panasonic T7, despite being three years old, the magnesium components, hinges, lid it all feels like new, the fan runs smoothly, the keyboard is firm, battery has more than 80% performance - it might not be the prettiest or elegant notebook, but quality should be superior - basically the last notebooks still made in Japan, 99% of the "professional" notebooks are nowadays made by Quanta, Wintek... with untrained, overworked and underpaid (about 1/5th of what Japanese workers get) employees - I don`t need to pay "professional" prices for that.

It will propably take a few months till I get the B10, but when somebody is interested, I can keep you updated.

georgl wrote:The big issue with Sony is quality ... And this is the flagship, not the consumer S-line...

This doesn't surprise me. Sony's best quality laptops are actually the mid-priced ones, for which Sony doesn't cut corners to make them ultralight.

After using the B10 for some months there are some issues:

- the keyboard is really bad, I don't know why but a lot of time some characters are not recognized and there are some problems with the space. I type blind for over a dozen years and never had a problem like this
- my fingers hurt after I use the keyboard. I have a big hand and I don't know what causes this. I never had this kind of problem on any Thinkpad (T, X series) and at other desktop keyboards
- after using the display my eyes don't feel the same. That's probably because of the PWM LED backlight. All regular led backlights now dim themselfs in turning themself off and on in a more lower frequency. This is a strobe effect.

It is very lightweight and it holds three hours of use. I could not add a WWAN card as the motherboard does not support it. You should buy a WWAN model directly when buying this notebook.

Since my last I learned that newer B10 has a USB 3.0 port. There's an awful lot of models available and some is now quite affordable:

Skipping the first few CF-B10AWADR, CF-B10AWHDR, CF-B10PWYYS, CF-B10CWADR they arent that different.
CF-B10CWHDR Core i5 2520M 2.5GHz, 1920x1080, 4GB, 640 GB, 1.88 kg, ¥ 106,980

CF-B10BWJYS Core i7 2620M 2.7GHz, 1920x1080, 250 GB, 4GB, 1.88 kg

USB 3.0 from here on:

CF-B10EWADR Core i5 2540M 2.6GHz, 1920x1080, 4GB, 640 GB, 1.88 kg, ¥ 109,289
CF-B10EWCYS Core i5 2540M 2.6GHz, 1920x1080, 4GB, 640 GB, 1.87 kg, ¥ 156,600
CF-B10EWHDR Core i5 2540M 2.6GHz, 1920x1080, 4GB, 640 GB, 1.88 kg, ¥ 174,800
CF-B10TWRYS Core i3 2330M 2.2GHz, 1366x768, 2GB, 250GB HDD, 1.74 kg, ¥ 129,800
CF-B10TWYYS Core i3 2330M 2.2GHz, 1366x768, 2GB, 250GB HDD, 1.68 kg, ¥ 146,958

Premiums (1920x1080, 8GB, 256GB SSD):

CF-B10WD3DP Core i7-2675QM 2.2GHz, 1.92 kg ¥ 284,250
CF-B10FD3DP Core i7 2640M 2.8GHz, 1.76 kg, ¥ 315,500
CF-B10UD3DP Core i7 2675Qm 2.2GHz, 1.92 kg ¥335,500
CF-B10DD3DP Core i7 2620M 2.7GHz, 1.76 kg, no price found
CF-B10BDBDP no price found, and seems the specs don't match Premium. Skipped.

Seems the CF-B10EWADR is a good choice, less than 1600 USD to USA shipped. What makes this modell so cheap, I can't fathom. But http://kakaku.com/item/K0000282306/ clearly there are a lot of shops selling at this point. The specs http://panasonic.jp/pc/products/b10e/spec.html match (and both the weight and the battery life time verifies it ships with the larger capacity battery).

http://panasonic.jp/pc/products/b10e/spec.html lists 6 and 3 hours of battery life. That results in 3 and 1,5 hours of usage. These are both the standard and the light battery, not the new battery.

ssd_thinkpad wrote:http://panasonic.jp/pc/products/b10e/spec.html lists 6 and 3 hours of battery life. That results in 3 and 1,5 hours of usage. These are both the standard and the light battery, not the new battery.

I wonder, haven't Panasonic been famous of actually getting close to the quoted battery life?

chx1975 wrote:I wonder, haven't Panasonic been famous of actually getting close to the quoted battery life?

Panasonic is famous that their batteries don't loose charge over time (months, years).

My B10 6 hours big battery lasts usually 3 hours.

pianowizard wrote:The Sony SE Series just came out in the U.S. It's 15.5" 1920x1080, barely heavier (4.4 lb) than the Panasonic B10, but much cheaper, only $960. It's extremely tempting!

After reading the posts, I was just about to mention that the SE series might be worth a look, but I see it has already been brought up. The Sony SE (FHD) and the Samsung Series 7 (HD+) have some of the best 15.6 displays that I have ever seen.

However, those two do not have the durability of the T520 or B10.

At the CES last month, Samsung announced their 2nd-gen Series 9 laptops, with the 13.3" version weighing only 2.56 lbs (same as Sony's Z2) and the 15.6" version at only 3.51 lbs!! That makes it the lightest 15.6" laptop ever, although its resolution is only 1600x900. And reviews noted that the display bezel is quite thin, almost like putting a 15.6" screen in a 14" laptop. Dell also introduced an Ultrabook with a very thin display bezel.

Being obsessed with resolution, weight and footprint size, I am convinced that these Ultrabooks with thin bezels is a good trend. But I am not sure I am willing to downgrade from my Toughbook Y5 (3.52lb, 14.1" 1400x1050) to 13.3" 1600x900 yet, even if that would allow me to reduce my travel weight by 1 pound. Sony's Z2 with 13.3" 1920x1080 is out of the question, since its DPI is way too high. And I am fairly certain I will never buy a 15.6" laptop for traveling, because even with an ultrathin bezel it's still too large. The only 16:9 laptop that might make a worthy successor to my Toughbook would be a 14.5-incher with 1920x1080 (a tolerable 151.9 DPI), the smallest footprint possible, a weight of less than 3 lbs, and a super tiny charger.

ssd_thinkpad wrote:- the keyboard is really bad

Remember I told you to try a cheap Y4/Y5 first?

pianowizard wrote:At the CES last month, Samsung announced their 2nd-gen Series 9 laptops, with the 13.3" version weighing only 2.56 lbs (same as Sony's Z2) and the 15.6" version at only 3.51 lbs!! That makes it the lightest 15.6" laptop ever, although its resolution is only 1600x900. And reviews noted that the display bezel is quite thin, almost like putting a 15.6" screen in a 14" laptop.

This is a video of the samsung. The displays refresh rate looks not good on the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MnRAhCcPRs