Thinkpads Forum

Dear Lenovo,

I want a full refund to my Lenovo Thinkpad T410s which is currently at one of your service centers. (serial number: XXXXXXX)

I am an extremely unsatisfied customer. Over the last 8 months of owning your top of the line T-Series ThinkPad I have developed the feeling that I have been tricked into buying an inferior product which is/was inaccurately marketed/advertised as the Gold Standard Business class computer. My dealings with service/support has left me feeling like the #1 CSAT rating you received is another of the many lies. My entire experience with Lenovo/IBM/ThinkPad has left my angered, insulted, feeling dooped and therefore [censored] off.

Background:
I'm a young professional and got a job at a HUGE World-Wide Fortune 500 tech company. When I went looking for a new computer, I wanted one that was bullet proof-- like my Dell 600m (I still have it, And i'm using it now; 7 years old, dropped on concrete multiple times, spilled water on it, and all i've had to do is replace the hard drive 4 years in). So to get ideas for good computers, I talked to some tech's at work and they said they have always had good luck with the T-Series Think Pads. I went on your website and was wowed by the marketing claims and advertisements. In case you forget I'll share them with you and the rest of the world. Feel free to skip, I certainly did not when buying my computer.
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MARKETING ON LENOVOs WEBSITE REGARDING THINKPADs T-series, not specifically T410s.

Currently being advertised:

Think Pad: "The ultimate business tool... Rock solid durability"

"Whether you're an overachiever, or an up and comer, ThinkPad laptops are the tools you need. From thin and Light to to heavy duty mobile workstations, THEY're BUILT, TESTED and ENHCANCED FOR RELIABILITY, DURABILITY, And speed."

Pealing the onion further I clicked on "Tortured Tested":

"ThinkPad notebooks endure a lot before they ever reach you. We (lenovo) Meticulously design many of them to PASS RUGGED MILITARY TESTS. We outfit them with spill resistant keyboards, roll-cage technology, and shock mounted hard drives. And we test them in ways you can't imagine, BAKING, BATTERING, BLISTERING and BLOWING them with sand."

>I checked and the T400's are supposed to be tested to these military specifications.

THINK PAD T Series:
"Our Finest Technology for your finest hours.... You're propelled to seize any opportunity that knocks on your door. Our HIGH PERFORMANCE Think Pad T Series Laptops complement that drive with LEGENDARY QUALITY, ROCK SOLID DURABILITY, and exceptional security features."

Pealing the onion further under "Heroic Durability":

"Baked, battered, blistered, by the elements over and over, THE T SERIES SETS THE HIGHEST STANDARD FOR CORE THINKPAD STRENGTH. ITS HIT THE GYM THE HARDEST and ENDURED THE TOUGHEST WORKOUTS JUST SO YOU CAN EFFORTLESSLY slicing thought waves of work"

"LAPTOP: Lenovo Thinkpad Tseries has been the GOLD STANDARD for business Notebooks"

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Not only was the marketing/advertising great I read reviews on CNET, Youtube, Lenovo forums, which gave specifically the T410s high honors. I was a little set back by the steep price but If it would get a "quality", "durable", well tested, "gold standard business computer" that is exactly what I wanted. So I forked over the Two-thousand five-hundred eight-four dollars and forty-one cents ($2,584.41) to get my top of the line "gold standard business computer". With the computer I bought a neoprene laptop case from Amazon which my computer Thinkpad 100% of the time kept when it is not in use, or traveling.

The computer arrived and worked flawlessly for 4 months. I could do my work at work and use it at home exceeding all my needs.
In late January, I noticed My Thinkpad was having issues using with flash based websites and Excel pivot tables with over 500,000 lines of data. I posted my concern on notebook reviews.com (FEBRUARY Post: http://forum.notebookreview.com/lenovo- ... watch.html) and did a little of my own research. The outcome was that I thought that my network wireless router was too slow and that flash based websites really do consume a lot of computer resources. So I spent more money to upgrade my internet and upgrade to a a wireless N router.

It seemed to help a bit, but randomly my CPU resources would jump up to 100% for minutes at a time and freeze everything I was doing on my computer. I was starting to be a little peeved by this but I gave lenovo the benefit of the doubt and started updating drivers to figure out what was going on.

In March, a hair line crack started to form in both the palm rests. Since I have never dropped my computer I was baffled as to how this would happen. So I Googled "T410s palm rest cracking" The whole first page of search results netted people experiencing the same thing.
To name a few:
> A nine page thread on Lenovo Forums!
http://forums.lenovo.com/t5/T400-T500-a ... 131/page/9
>Another seperate 1 page thread on Lenovo Forums!
http://forum.lenovo.com/t5/T400-T500-an ... d-p/397833
>10 posts on this Thinkpad forums
http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=93325
>a post on a mercedes benz forum
>EVEN A youtube video on how to replace the palm rests!
http://youtu.be/9dQm9W9xM0g

I called Lenovo service mid march and they said there was no issue with the design of the T410s palm rests or manufacture of the the plastic parts and that I would have to pay for it myself; obviously a cover up with all the other people experiencing the same issues as me.

By this point I was pretty unhappy as I would have to again spend more money to fix my ThinkPad with its "Heroic Durability" & "Legendary Quality". So I continued to use it.

In April more cracks started for form, a few around the wireless switch, one on the left side of the LCD screen bezel and the right side of the LCD screen bezel came loose and popped out. I was able to push it back in, however it would not seat itself correctly and there was a small hairline gap between the screen and bezel. My secondary battery in the auxilary bay became loose and had would rattle (up and down; z-axis). My computer started making electronic chirping noises and and would get pretty hot. The noise would not happen when the CPU was being was being stressed, however it was most noticeable when I would start my computer, and when I did a system restore.

Every Diagnostics I ran on my computer (thinkpad tool box, a monthly indepth scan, stress testing every part with the tool box tools) said there were Zero issues with my computer. However I knew this was not the case.

Once again I called lenovo service in Atlanta Georgia, and told them my issues. They agreed to send me a box (Ref1: 31rqk4k-2901ct0-r97n727/ Tracking: 1Z 8W2 75E 84 03110953)) and I'd have 30 days to return my computer. My Employer told me that I would have to wipe out all the data on my hard drive as, the information I work with is sensitive, proprietary, and specific to my companies overall health. I soon found it very hard to give up my computer for any length of time as it was the end of a fiscal quarter. Work becomes very hectic (12+ hour days) & I found zero time to wipe out my hard drive.

So I wanted to wait until a more opportune time; however, in May/June, I was using my computer and experienced something I had never before experienced. My Think Pad just shut off without warning. So I turned my computer back on and it shut off again. I noticed it was really hot so I let it cool off for half and hour and started using it. While playing angry birds on google chrome, It shut off again. So I let it cool and turned it back on again. This time, while playing angry birds I took a reading of my CPU core temp (with the lenovo tool box supplied diagnostics and recorded 4 temperature ratings. 1. at 87 degrees Celcius. 2. at 95 degrees C 3. at 100 degrees C. 4. at 104 degrees C! Yet every diagnostics I ran while above 87 degrees C said there were ZERO issues with my durable computer.

I called and got another box near the middle-end of June, wiped my data and sent it off in July.

Dealing with Service:
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Dealing with service is what has put me over the edge and is why I want a full refund of my purchase price.

I talked to first guy (David? or Matt?) and he explained what was actually wrong with my computer and that it was was not covered under warranty as I must have damaged it and It would cost me $952.00 to fix a Fan, a system board, and all the plastic. 952.00! more than 1/3 of my purchase price to fix and 8 month old computer! Which I take stellar care of. He asked if I dropped it and I told him the truth, I dropped it once on June 30th; that it was a soft drop (Soft drop= low level drop onto a padded surface. IE my bed to the carpet) and occurred after I had already Received my second box and that my computer experienced no new issues. I told him that the drop had not damaged it, explained the story above (issues in February with slowness and heat, plastic issues in March/ April, chirping noised in April, requesting the first box in April). So I asked him if he were in my shoes would that be acceptable. He said he did not have the authority to reduce or negate charges but offered to escalate it to someone that could. . . so we did.

About a 3 days later The second guy called me (David? or Matt?). He explained to me The exact same thing the first guy did:
>That there were no issues with the plastic manufacture.
>Asked me again how many times I dropped it. And afterwards said he would have to go check the shock sensor in my computer to verify what I was telling him!
> He said Damage was not covered under the warranty and it would cost me 952 dollars to fix.
>He explained that he has no authorization to reduce the cost of the damage and after I explained, once again, everything I told the first service guy. He offered to escalate it.
--> DEJA-VU; way to waste my time at work.

The third service guy was Greg. He called me last week and explained to me Lenovo's practice of how the first guy will call (the one without authorization) and take no responsibility on lenovo's behalf and lump all charges together and that's how they arrived at 952.00 (really?). He however has authorization to reduce the cost but wanted to know a few things:
>How many times have i dropped it?
-I told him the same think I told the other two people. He seemed very skeptical that I did not drop it.
So, I asked why were there 10+ pages of thread on lenovo Forums about cracked palm rests? To which he answered by saying:
>Did I let anything fall on it that could have damaged it? --NO!

He said he would reduce the cost from 952 dollars down to 150 dollars. I asked about why I still had to pay anything and to which he replied, that he was working with me, that the fan and board would be covered under warranty and he was being generous to split the cost of the plastic parts with me. I asked why I still had to pay anything. And Greg gave me an ultimatum: Either I pay 150 dollars or they'll return my computer to me completely unfixed. WTF!!!! I told him I'd have to think about it. I have not called back as If I do, I will be Irate. I'm not sure what I'm going to do next besides post my experience on the ThinkPad Forum and Lenovo Forum.
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The bottom Line:
After thinking about it. I do not want to pay for Lenovo's crappy design. I do not want to have them replace the broken parts with the same parts only to have to go through this experience again Every 4 months for the next 3 years (my warranty is 3 years). I do want to be accused of damaging my computer (which really pisses me off. . I fear that with my processor experiencing 100+ degrees C temperatures, it has permanently damaged the life of the CPU and surrounding parts.

I feel like all the marketing/advertising on Lenovo's website is lies and I feel dooped into buying a sub-par, non-durable, non-gold standard business class product, cheaply made Chinese product. I do not ever as a consumer, want to own a product inwhich I will keep having to incur costly fixes if I continue to own it. I don't ever want to have to talk to someone at Lenovo's Service dept as they angered me, by practically accusing me of damaging my computer, and giving me an ultimatum with no reasonable options. Is this how a company which was rated #1 in customer satisfaction should operate?

I WANT OUT OF THE LENOVO Business!

Wouldn't you?

Extremely Unsatisfied customer,

Alex


mod edit: removed s/n from public view for owner's protection.

This sounds like a troll message but I will throw in a few things because when I read posts like this I'm very skeptical.

First, dropping a computer can have drastic effects on things. Yes, dropping from a bed to the floor can cause problems that you have outlined. The cpu cooler can shift, or even crack depending how it's dropped. A bed to floor from my experience is about 2.5 feet, and a floor, even though carpeted is still plywood underneath and wont give much. Fall on the floor off your bed and see how your head feels. This can cause the plastic damage and the LCD issue. You said you dropped your Dell a number of times, so it does make me skeptical that you'd treat this one any better.

Second, the plastics can be damaged from excessive use. I had a laptop that I used for 3 years quite heavily, never marking the plamrests. My brother got it, within 2 months wore 2 palm prints into the palmrests and cracked the plastics...

I think 150 bucks to have all of the plastics replaced is a good price. The plastics themselves can cost that to buy. Not to mention having them fitted.

I understand there are manufacturing defects, but man, I have a Thinkpad X60 that was used by a service tech at an HVAC company and despite being extremely rough, still worked fine and was all in one piece. My little X120e has been really tough too, maybe not as tough as the mainline models, but still good enough for me.

Moved from T4x forum.

@ OP: Please note that this forum is not run by Lenovo.

From the lenovo forum:

by accident, I notieced a bright white dot on top of the lid when the display is on. This dot looks more like a hole, but is covered by the letter "a" of the "Thinkpad" logo. It is quite obvious in a dark place.

I have this on mine as well. Wow! That's just terrible.

TL;DR. I did, however, notice the overuse of expletives for which our bot helpfully substituted something less offensive. I hope you write more concisely and without the colorful language at work and also take more care to review your work before reusing it elsewhere. It was quite amusing when you accused Andy over at the Lenovo forum of removing your expletives there and inserting our substitutions.

aghayek, I didn't read more than a third of your very long post but if the statements that you highlighted in bold are indeed used by Lenovo to market their Thinkpads, then I agree Lenovo has committed false advertising.

BTW, I was surprised that you found the Dell 600m durable. I had one briefly and thought it was a piece of junk. Newer Dell Latitudes are much better.

Agree with Pianowizard, the 600m was not that good. You must have got lucky with the 600m, but they cannot handle water as well as the Thinkpads do. They had lot of hard drive failures and heat insulators were used under the palmrest which made the problem even worse.

aghayek, having experienced similar with my work laptop from HP I do understand that you are very angry and fed up with the service that has been provided. However I must confess that I have never had any issues what so ever with the durability of Lenovo (or with IBM) ThinkPads, only time I experienced a broken plastic part was when the fan grill (on TP W510) lost two spokes following a 6 feet fall.

It is the first time I have ever heard of thermal problems with Lenovo - I have used my TP's in the temperature rang between ~-4 and ~122 Fahrenheit and have not experienced any kind of problems. If the temperature readings you have reported was caused by a malfunction or misalignment of the cooling/fan assembly then you would have experienced the problem from the begining, as this is not the case something must have dislodged the assembly causing the temperature to rise. Did you try to disassemble the laptop and investigate what could be causing the bay battery to be loose?

(PS. I'm in no way, shape, or form affiliated/associated with Lenovo other than being a costumer)

OP you are living in a post globalization world and it's Made in China by a Chinese company of course it's gonna break fast and easy what do you expect!

Seriously the most reliable laptop I've used was a Toshiba Tecra 500CDT ($6000CAD and Made in Japan DUH!) brick that my old man got from work during the mid 90's that he never really used and I treated it like a kid's toy (dropped it, stepped on it, etc) and it would still look flawless without a scratch. Back in the day Toshiba was the gold standard (from the 80s to 90s - good times!) and they even advertised their laptops on TV by having it thrown off the top of a taxi's trunk and onto concrete and it would still work lol!

Eventually work replaced his Tecra with a very nice ThinkPad 600X and my old man would baby it cuz even tho it was overly solid built (by today's standards) it didn't have the rugged feel of the old Toshiba.

I've had used ThinkPad T42 and T61 when I was working at Big Blue and even tho they were true workhorses, me and my colleagues indeed went thru a ton of parts and a few replacement shells (laptop without hard drive or optical drive) to keep ourselves working.

My first ThinkPad was a T43 that is now 6 years old and still working flawlessly, went thru one fan and many keyboards and palmrests (yes they do crack overtime, blame Mitsubishi Engineering Plastics for that), other than an aging Samsung LCD panel I can't really complain.

I have since replaced the T43 with a T400s and yes it feels rather flimsy but that is the current economic reality of the world. I doubt you will be able to find better build quality with other brands as well (yes even Apple is slipping just check out youtube on broken palmrests and hinges LOL!).

And yes since Lenovo took over they have become very strict with warranty claims (I'm sure some Harvard Business grad is running the show just like every other Fortune 500 company these days == show profit for elite top management at all cause). Just get them to warranty the system board and fan, tell them don't replace the palmrest. Once you get the machine back, spend 50 bucks on eBay for a new palmrest, download the technical manual and turn the screws yourself (you did goto school I presume).

BTW I'm Chinese all my life and we are only good at dim sum and kung-fu and no good with factories so I know what I'm talking about in terms of shoddy workmanship.

Good luck!

I doubt you will be able to find better build quality with other brands as well (yes even Apple is slipping just check out youtube on broken palmrests and hinges LOL!).

I think they have parts made in the same factories. At Foxconn.


Is there a new FRU sticker that doesn't let light through and fixes the hole in the LCD cover problem?

sir_synthsalot wrote:Is there a new FRU sticker that doesn't let light through and fixes the hole in the LCD cover problem?

What are the exact dimensions of the sticker on the T410s? If they fit, you could try these -
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/5x-NEW-ThinkPad-T ... 3f0b1bcdfa

krayzie wrote:OP you are living in a post globalization world and it's Made in China by a Chinese company of course it's gonna break fast and easy what do you expect!

I don't think the OP was just complaining about the low quality of his Thinkpad per se. Instead, he was [censored] off by Lenovo's hyperbolic claims that the Thinkpads have passed military tests, can survive baking, battering, blistering, etc.

@pianowizard
The claims could be accurate. Normally when a manufacturer sends devices for testing or do the tests themselves they do a limited production run, devices from this early production run is then used for all tests and presentations etc. Only a few manufactures do rigorous test on devices randomly sampled/selected from the 'real' production lilne/run.
One could compare it to printing versus copying/xeroxing, the first production run used for tests and such is like when you print a document - you get the best possible quality. The subsequent runs are comparable to copying the document - may look like the original but it will never be the same.

Harryc wrote:What are the exact dimensions of the sticker on the T410s? If they fit, you could try these -
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/5x-NEW-ThinkPad-T ... 3f0b1bcdfa

I ended up peeling my sticker off and cutting a little piece of aluminium foil and placing it at the back of the sticker to cover the hole. There is indeed a perfect circular hole in the cover. Very bizzare.

Off topic but more bizzare findings for this model which is if you remove the clearplate there is actually provision for a 4th led indicator as there is a 4th hole on the bezel and a spot for the extra led, but the led is missing and the clearplate for that spot is darken obviously.

Once you in you cant leave lol Thinkpads to me are still the best considering though the plastics have changed I can tell you that. Comparing my old A20m to my T500 I can say the A20m has a stronger structure. The plastics might get messed up but the magnisium metal inside the laptop will still keep on coming.

krayzie wrote:OP you are living in a post globalization world and it's Made in China by a Chinese company of course it's gonna break fast and easy what do you expect!

Guess who did the production of that trusty T43 that you used when you were an IBMer?

And the T30s?

And many of the T20s?

And all of the X series?

Globalization started way back in the late 80's to early 90's just wasn't as widespread like it is today.

Yup the not too long ago IBM ThinkPads were much of the same from China (it was a little better built than now and I believe at least one manufacturer was called Quantas) and the quality just kept spiraling into the bottomless pit since a decade ago cuz nobody can affort to build like the good old days anymore. Good point ThinkRob!

Case in point the same thing happened when Ericsson cellular phones became Sony Ericsson, where in house Swedish production for the most part went to low cost outsourced manufacturing (Flextronics in Malaysia and China) but before you know it nobody remembers the old triple sausage logo and awesome magnesium backplate anymore (but I still rock an old Ericsson R520m to this day it breaks a lot of necks with the kids on the street lol).

krayzie wrote:Globalization started way back in the late 80's to early 90's just wasn't as widespread like it is today.

Yup the not too long ago IBM ThinkPads were much of the same from China (it was a little better built than now and I believe at least one manufacturer was called Quantas) and the quality just kept spiraling into the bottomless pit since a decade ago cuz nobody can affort to build like the good old days anymore. Good point ThinkRob!

Case in point the same thing happened when Ericsson cellular phones became Sony Ericsson, where in house Swedish production for the most part went to low cost outsourced manufacturing (Flextronics in Malaysia and China) but before you know it nobody remembers the old triple sausage logo and awesome magnesium backplate anymore (but I still rock an old Ericsson R520m to this day it breaks a lot of necks with the kids on the street lol).

My T420 is more solid than my X200, which was more solid than my X61s, which was less solid than my X40, which was pretty [censored] solid.

SO i'd say they've taken steps forward in build quality.

krayzie wrote: Yup the not too long ago IBM ThinkPads were much of the same from China (it was a little better built than now and I believe at least one manufacturer was called Quantas)

I believe you're thinking of Quanta, who built the G4x series for IBM.

There's also the X3x and X4x series (made by Wistron).

Sanmina-SCI took over a number of IBM plants in 2002 (possibly earlier), and had been doing manufacturing for IBM before that.

Acer had been doing manufacturing for IBM since at least the late 90s. (They made the i series ThinkPads, a bunch of monitors, some system development work, plus other stuff.)

Heck, going back even further than that (and moving into peripherals) we could talk about Lexmark taking over the accessories manufacturing from IBM in the early 90s. A good number of the "IBM Model M" keyboards that one finds were actually made by Lexmark. IIRC by 1993 IBM had already divested itself of all of its US keyboard production, leaving only Greenock and Mexico.

I think we can confidently say that the IBM PC/AT was made by IBM, so why don't we declare that the only quality product ever made and leave it at that? Surely that's a standard we can all agree on...

quality just kept spiraling into the bottomless pit since a decade ago cuz nobody can affort to build like the good old days anymore. Good point ThinkRob!

That wasn't my point.

So who and where were the majority of ThinkPads from the 1990s made? I'm not trying to argue just curious since you seem to know alot about the history of IBM manufacturing.

My primary concern is that it seems the IBM laptops from the 90s were built better (I believe I did mention that to begin with and this is my own opinion) and the ones I've seen from that era read Made in USA or Mexico on the bottom plate. This is just my perception from handling them in stores but not daily usage (I never owned one).

In terms of the current Lenovo ThinkCentres and ThinkPads, from the IBM SSRs across Canada that I deal with on a daily basis at work, they are telling me the overall exterior built quality (namely the plastics for the bezels prone to cracking) and the internal components (system boards, hdd, ram, etc) tend to have a higher DOA and in-warranty period failure rate in recent years, much more than 5 to 6 years ago. They also told me that getting warranty parts replacement from Lenovo has also seem to be much tougher these days.

As a side note if you want to talk about PC products from the 80's (I was there) there was a HUGE perceivable quality difference between a Compaq Deskpro from Texas and a Pine clone PC from Hong Kong both inside and out, or another example a cheap A4tech optical mouse from Taiwan (yes there were optical mice back then they just needed a grid mouse pad) compare to a Microsoft Mouse.

krayzie wrote:So who and where were the majority of ThinkPads from the 1990s made? I'm not trying to argue just curious since you seem to know alot about the history of IBM manufacturing.

It depends. A lot of ones sold in the US were made either in the US (by IBM) or in Mexico (also by IBM.) The EU and other markets got models produced in Greenock, Scotland, as well as other facilities. Some later models were made in Japan, but I'm unsure if this was done by IBM or another company (also, my dates could be off -- I don't know if said models were produced in the 90s.)

Perhaps another member (George, RBS, or somebody like y'all) can fill in the gaps and correct the inevitable errors in the above.

My primary concern is that it seems the IBM laptops from the 90s were built better (I believe I did mention that to begin with and this is my own opinion) and the ones I've seen from that era read Made in USA or Mexico on the bottom plate. This is just my perception from handling them in stores but not daily usage (I never owned one).

It's kinda hard to compare. ThinkPads from the 90s were a *lot* thicker and heavier than current models. I have a 750cs at home, and while it certainly is like a solid brick... well... it's like a solid brick. It's about 2 inches thick, and feels like it weighs nearly as much as my T60, despite having a screen that's a mere fraction of the size.

I do think that manufacturing standards were higher for ThinkPads up until the late 90s -- but I don't think that the quality decline has been proportional to the absolutely massive decline in price. Right now you can get a well-equipped T420 for literally 1/3th of the introductory price of the 750. And that's without adjusting for inflation!

In terms of the current Lenovo ThinkCentres and ThinkPads, from the IBM SSRs across Canada that I deal with on a daily basis at work, they are telling me the overall exterior built quality (namely the plastics for the bezels prone to cracking) and the internal components (system boards, hdd, ram, etc) tend to have a higher DOA and in-warranty period failure rate in recent years, much more than 5 to 6 years ago.

Which is odd, since AFAIK the manufacturers of ThinkPads and ThinkCentres haven't changed much since 2005 or so. Wistron, Compal, Quanta, and Foxconn all have produced (and/or still do produce) Lenovo's ThinkPads, and Sanmina-SCI has produced IBM and Lenovo desktops from 2002 onwards. (Actually, that last bit may not be quite accurate: Sanmina-SCI sold at some of its assets to Lenovo in 2008, so Lenovo might technically be doing some of the manufacturing "in house" unless they've subbed out management to somebody else.)

ThinkRob wrote:but I don't think that the quality decline has been proportional to the absolutely massive decline in price.

I agree. The higher price of the 1990s was partly because IBM spent more money on support and quality check, and partly because components like RAM and HDDs were much more expensive. I think when 4MB laptop RAM modules first came out, they cost close to $1K apiece!

Also, let me reiterate a comment that I may have already made too many times in other threads. Even if IBM Thinkpads and Lenovo Thinkpads have the exact same quality (which, IMO, is more or less true), this is perceived by some people as a decline in quality because we take it for granted that technologies should get better over time. If other brands are getting better whereas Lenovo is simply maintaining the same quality that IBM had for years, some see this as a decline in quality.

Since I've just had to do a clean up on some recent OTT posts in this thread, it seems that it has got to a point where its beyond any further rational discussion for the ThinkPad T4x0/T5x0 Series forum...... so its now locked..

OP has posted further on the Lenovo Community web site if anyone wants to follow the complaint.